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Range Report Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievable

McCrazy

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Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jun 4, 2008
    1,115
    192
    Texas
    I have been wanting to shoot in competitions for a while and finally did my first two today. First was a NRA High Power match shooting in the Sportsman class with my RD Precision rifle described here: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...378#Post1251378

    Nothing amazing to report on the High Power match really. I shot 423 points with 4x's out of 500 possible points which put me 3rd place overall out of 11 shooters (including a High Master) and I won the Sportsman class. On the good side I didn't hit anything lower than a 7 and surely would have shot significantly better with a sling. Shooting that rifle with a heavy contour barrel in standing, sitting, and prone unsupported with no sling is not very easy.

    After the High Power match was done, we rolled into a informal Sniper match. Course of fire was 6 bonus shots to get 2 hits on steel discs at 200 and 300 yards (I was the only person to hit both with my first shots); followed by two iterations of: shooting 3 bullets at 1" pasters at 100 yards for 1 point per hit; shooting 3 bullets at 1" pasters at 200 yards for 2 points per hit; and then 3 shots shooting at the 1" paster "eye" on the left of the 300 yard silhouette for 3 points per hit with head shots still worth 1 point.

    I ended up winning the Sniper match with a score of 37 points which was definitely cool, especially since that means I get to shoot my next match for free.

    Here is the crazy part though: the first iteration of shooting the 300 yard range I had never shot that rifle with that ammo (175 gr Black Hills Match) at that distance so I was guessing on data. We finished the first iteration and went down range to check everyones targets where we were all pretty shocked to find this on my 300 yard target:
    ShootingStuff001.jpg


    ShootingStuff002.jpg


    A group which measures .586", minus .308" bullet diameter, divided by 3 for being at 300 yards and we end up with a .092 moa group. I am not even going to try to beat this group, but am definitely saving the target. Surely a once in a lifetime deal but a pleasant surprise none the less. The High Power director took a picture of it and said something about putting it on the shooting club's website which is cool since I'm not even a part of the club yet.

    My next group at 300 (in the following photo) was a more normal 2.370"-.308"/3= 0.69 moa which isn't too shabby. At least I was able to make corrections off my first group and hit the left eye for more points than I got for my tiny group.
    ShootingStuff003.jpg


    Before I have to hear it I know this isn't the Hide standard of 5 shots for 5 groups for accuracy testing. I openly admit this was a fluke and will happily chalk it up to a fair bit of luck and will always give credit to Randy for the outstanding work he did building this rifle. Still though, it was pretty damned cool. And for those of you who want to throw the BS flag, feel free to blast away on this thread and PM me. I will be happy to put you in touch with the High Power director for confirmation or denial.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievable

    nice work
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievable

    Congratulations. I'm contemplating competing after I get used to my rifle. Gonna be service type matches with M1A. Nice grouping, too.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievable

    thats damn good shooting on that first group, you called it though- if that was a consistent thing for you i'd love to take some instruction from you!!

    Good Work

    -Taylor
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Thanks much Guys. At least in this sport I got to save the target so I don't have to live the rest of my life with basically "the one that got away" story.

    Birddog- I would say just go ahead and jump in to a comp as soon as you can. Regardless of how well you do, you will start learning at an accelerated pace and have good people around to coach you. I thought there would just be a bunch of old cranky guys that would be all pissy with me for being young and unknown. Instead they were all quite nice and the shoot itself was nothing to cause a nervous breakdown or anything. All in all it was a lot of fun and I will definitely be doing it again sooner than later.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Nice shooting. I'm currently developing a load for my R&D Precision 30-06.

    I'm going to load up some 208 Amax's tonight or tomorrow.

    Randy puts together a nice rifle but the guy driving it that makes it shine.... so, again... nice shooting.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Best of luck with your rifle 1MT. Get a hold of Montana Marine for some smoking .30-06 loads with heavy bullets. I can't remember if he prefers the 208 gr or 210 gr projos. Either way I am certain you will have a screaming little rifle.

    We will have to shoot our RD rifles together sometime, either when I come to SoCal again or when you get out to NC.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    If you go out and shoot a high power match, you will find that most HP shooters are extremely friendly and will go out of our way to make you feel at home and enjoy the sport. If you are up for a little drive, come up to Catawba Valley on Oct 31/Nov1 and shoot our 2/300 yard XTC state championship and our midrange (300 yard) prone championship. Will give you a good chance to test out what that rifle, and you, can do at 300! Get ya a sling in the meantime. :)


    See this thread http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...865#Post1319865

    John
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Montana has been a HUGE help to me with 308 and 30-06 loads. It is COMPLETELY his fault that went out and bought Quickload. Montana is a 208 fan but has tried pretty much everything in the 30-06. I've got some 240's on the way that I'm going to try out with the RL25 I have.

    I'm hoping, if the timing is right, I'll be there and going through the prep course by the end of the year.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Damn man... Just damn.

    Fluke or not, that's a wall hanger!
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    1MT- if you aren't here by the end of the year it looks like I will be in SoCal for a little winter vacation. If I haven't seen you here yet maybe I'll see you there instead.

    Mudcat- I read your thread, PM on the way shortly.

    Donut and Skinney- my sentiments exactly.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Not to sound all contrary, but as someone who shoots these courses and has almost the same rig as you, in addition to iron sighted service rifles, you need to shoot these courses with the rifles they're intended for. Sorry, let me rephrase that- to actually compare yourself to the other shooters or really test yourself, you need to shoot these courses with the rifles they're intended for.

    Shooting an NRA Highpower match with a 10X optic is like bringing an F1 formula car to your town's local street race on a Sat night.

    To be honest, I'm surprised you only got 4Xs out of the 50 shots. The X ring is usually 1 MOA at each distance. So with that rig, you should have been pasting them no problem.

    Am I being a dick? Maybe just a little
    smile.gif
    , but it's only because I want you to shoot in ways that actually are meant to test your skills with a given rifle- NRA Highpower is fine, but I wouldn't go boasting your ranking when the dudes next to you were using irons (unless they were all using optics, in which case you belong to a club with some very unsteady shooters
    smile.gif
    )

    In your case, with this rig, I'd take it to F-Class matches- prone, 600y (generally), and a 1/2 MOA X ring. That's when it gets good and tests the type of system you have in addition to how well you shoot it.

    Now, perhaps these types of matches you're shooting now are just what you should be doing till you train up. But again, I wouldn't go boasting when you're shooting at 1.5 foot blacks and the guys to your left and right are using tiny little irons!

    My best advice- get a service rifle and shoot along with them- that'll give you a real appreciation both for the sport and the fundamentals.

    -BB

    EDIT- Just saw the Sportsmen's Class note above. If you were up against a lot of other optic shooters, disregard most of what I said, but I'd still advise shooting at targets this large with irons!
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    I have to agree wtih Big Brother - GREAT that you got out and shot....

    I averaged 189-192 with 14x on Across-The-Course, I just made Expert, 2 points away from Master, when I hung it up.

    If you can do all that reloading and rapid fire with a scope, great skill to learn, but if you want to be in teh same class and say "I REALLY won" - shoot an AR-15 or a bolt action rifle.

    the bolt was more fun, challenging to reload, challenging to work the bolt but I did very well, felt I was earning it compared to the rapid reload of an AR-15..

    My buddy John just shot his first 19x match, trying out for the US Palma team, if that puts the 4x you shot in comparison.

    Keep striving for more!!


    This is my old Across-the-course rifle, someone here bought it from me:

    Mcgee1.jpg
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    What were the specs of that rifle?
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Have fun with it. ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING, a club does to increase attendance at a match (aka run what ya brung) I support.

    Ignore the hater/elitist types.

    Get ur hands on an AR Service Rifle and an hour's instruction with it on positions and you'll be off to the races. If you were here I'd loan you one and we'd have at it.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    As BB pointed out the X rings are 1 moa, so basically I had a pretty good view of how unsteady my position was. Believe me I would have gladly traded my scope for some iron sights on a better balanced weapon with a sling for this course of fire. Heck, one of those shooting jackets would have helped out too. Blatantly I pointed out that I was shooting in the Sportsman class so it didn't seem to be as though I was directly comparing myself to the shooters with iron sights. Most of my post was about the Sniper match held afterward in which I shot a group I will probably never beat and not the High Power event that seems to be the object of scrutiny.

    Oh well, to each their own. I appreciate the constructive criticism as it mirrors my own sentiments. In the end my intent was just to shoot what was basically a 1-day notice to come shoot with a local gun club that I am trying to gain membership to and wanted to see me shoot. Afterwards I just posted the factual results.

    The rifle is definitely better suited to F-class type matches but I have to find some around here first.

    I have a few ARs in various set-ups but none with iron sights so that is something for me to work on because I actually felt handicapped with this rifle compared to one actually intended for this type of competition. If I was able to shoot off bipods or a rest that would be a different matter altogether.

    9H- If you are staying in Colorado Springs for a while then we will get to shoot together sooner than later. I'm looking forward to it.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Yea well I'll be here - just don't tell anybody in the Army that a civie is helping you with shooting. Your CO is likely to give you an order to stop it.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Yep, you realized, like most will, that sometimes optics are a hinderance....they are in high power. Even in HP matches that allow optics, you will rarely see them. If you know what to do with the irons, you can shoot just as good groups as you can with optics. And for offhand and the rapids, a scope is a negative.

    Get ya a HP rig and go have some fun....trust me, it is.

    John
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    The adage is that the course is lost in the Offhand, and won in the Prone. Using optics simply makes the former harder, and the latter easier. It still takes a good shooter to take advantage of these differences.

    We are, indeed, comparing apples and oranges. A more true comparison would involve Irons, or an F Class course.

    I don't think this detracts one iota from the initial experience you achieved.

    The first few matches are mostly a learning experience; about the COF, and about you and your gear. A good result is simply icing on the cake. Upping the ante by employing more appropriate implements to the COF will level the playing field, and give truer importance and satisfaction to the outcomes.

    Best fortune, and welcome to the competition.

    Greg
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    All,

    Seems to me, any competition which inspires marksmanship development is good for any who do indeed want to develop their marksmanship skills. Thing is, some competitions today are not well rounded enough to allow for a shooter to reach the highest plateaus of marksmanship. My advice, enter competitions which test shooter skill, more than that of the equipment.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,

    My advice, enter competitions which test shooter skill, more than that of the equipment. </div></div>

    I agree to a point, but what would you consider a competition that tests mostly the shooter?
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    NRA and CMP Service Rifle for position shooting. Palma for long range shooting. Air rifle and air pistol for indoor shooting. Granted there are certain minimum levels of equipment and ammo in order to have a shooting system that shoots on call every time and does so within an accuracy window that allows a shooter to card a clean when he in fact shoots a clean.

    Say what you want about flat ranges, known distances, and iron sights. There is much to be learned from them all. I also maintain that you will never come close to understanding and developing your capabilities as a shooter if all you ever shoot is center fire.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievable

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I openly admit this was a fluke and will happily chalk it up to a fair bit of luck and will always give credit to Randy for the outstanding work he did building this rifle. </div></div>

    Its cool to be humble but even for a three shot group that isn't all luck. Nice work, and a nice build Randy. (Even if there was a little bit of luck, its kind of like a hole in one in golf - those great shots make you keep going back to the range for more!). I recall seeing a 1/10th MOA guaranteed rifle once - I guess they do exist.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievable

    McCrazy, no matter how good the gun -- you still had to point it and make it go off without disturbing the lay of the gun.

    Take credit when it's due. You'll take more than enough grief when you don't.
    smile.gif
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievable

    Nice shooting man!! that group is amazing!!
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievable

    Thanks much lady and gentlemen. Sinister- you definitely have a point when it comes to enjoying it while I can. There will surely be many less than impressive groups in the future.

    Right now I'm just trying to get out and shoot as much as I can to get back into the swing of things. Long range shooting isn't something I had been able to do much for about the last 4 years so I am trying to do as much of it as possible right now.

    Ultimately I want to compete in 1,000 yard matches as well as 3-gun competitions, and whatever else comes around. It's a fun hobby but also relevant to my profession so I'm more motivated than most would be to improve.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievable

    Actually, I think the saying is HP XTC matches are won offhand and lost at 600.

    McCrazy, one thing you may find is that its hard to do more than one discipline...that is, if you want to master HP anyhow. its fairly easy to shoot XTC and LR, but I havent been able to devote much time, if any, to 3 gun or any of the other stuff I wouldnt mind doing...shoot, i cant even get time to get started on going Double Distinguished! Though, i am having a M9 ball gun built up, just in case I get a chance to shoot an EIC here or there.

    Try LR, its a hoot. Playing in the wind can be fun...and it can be frustrating. But being at Bragg, you got at least one 1,000 yard range within easy driving distance and I cant remember if Lejeune has 1000 yards or not...they are running XTC matches again now though.

    John
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Good shoot, dude.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    I guess we heard different sayings. Been years for me since I shot XTC, so if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

    Greg
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess we heard different sayings. Been years for me since I shot XTC, so if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

    Greg</div></div>

    One thing for sure, good 200 yard standing scores are pretty much the rule for wins in HP. A shooter who posts a real good score there would be hard pressed to loose a tournament unless he had a a crossfire, or bullet come unwrapped at 600.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Good shooting bro!!
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Thanks CKA and Nomad, good to see you guys around.

    Mudcat- I agree with you about it being difficult to become proficient in multiple disciplines. Especially if you are working a full time job that impedes your ability to practice. With my job though it is beneficial for me to be decent in many disciplines even if I never become great in any.

    In the end, I just enjoy shooting and am trying to make myself better in various ways and competition is good for that.

    During the last couple weeks I have been experimenting with handloads for my .308 and have come up with what looks to be a promising load (155gr Scenar, 44.4gr Varget, Lapua brass, CCI BR2 primer). Should be shooting one of the 1,000 yard ranges on Bragg this weekend with the local gun club. Will try to get enough info to do a range report on the happenings.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    put 2 more grains of Varget behind it and you'll be getting somewhere. Being "promising" with that bullet around sea level at 1k yards involves velocity, and 44.4 does not produce much of it.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Yeah, 44.4grs of Varget and a 155 is light. My Palma load is 47.2grs of Varget with the new 155SMK. Compressed load and still had room to go up, but I got just shy of 3,000fps so I had what I needed...and it shoots well.

    Work up to those kinda loads though...dont just throw another 2 grains in the case and pull the trigger. What works in my gun or NH's gun may not work in yours.

    John
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    While doing my load development I actually ran all the way up to 46grs of Varget in .4gr increments. Other than the occasional bolt swipe and more noticeable ejector dents the pressure signs weren't there. However accuracy was not all that impressive with the higher powder charges so I backed it down to where I saw the most promise. Accuracy is more important to me than screaming fast loads.

    Besides, I have shot 150 gr American Eagle ammo out to 1000 yards so I am sure the 155gr Scenar will make it too. Then again that shooting was done in the High Desert in Southern California so I could be wrong...
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    When I was doing my loads I was going off the Sierra manual that states 44.8grs of Varget being the max load for a 155gr bullet. Out of curiosity I checked my Lyman manual though and it lists 48.0+grs of Varget as being the max. Looks like I will have to put together some more loads with higher powder charges to see if I can get some more speed.

    Need to get a bloody chrono anyhow.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Keep in mind that if you are shooting 1,000 yards, you NEED the speed. If you dont get 2950fps+ going with the 155, accuracy aint gonna matter as the bullets are going to be tumbling into the target anyhow. Thats why Palma shooters are looking for that majic number. We then work up an accurate load that meets that speed requirement...otherwise, its worthless to us. The good thing, is that with ever rifle I have used for Palma with these loads, has shot lights out. But then, keep in mind we are using 30 inch or longer bbls to get that velocity.

    Just be careful, in any event.

    John
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Thanks Mudcat- 9H sent me a PM telling me pretty much the exact same thing. That is what caused me to go check the Lyman manual.

    Tomorrow I am going to load up a bunch of rounds for the 1,000 yard shoot with the 44.4 gr load and see how it holds up at distance. I'm also going to load up 5 rounds a piece of 46.4, 46.8, 47.2, 47.6, and 48.0grs and see where I start to get heavy pressure signs.

    Where do you usually call it quits? Primer cratering? Bolt stick? Bolt Swipe? I already ran up to 46.0grs and was getting the occasional bolt swipe as well as deeper and deeper ejector marks.

    I'm only running a 24" barrel BTW so my velocity will be a bit more limited than your rigs.
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Where do I usually call it quits? Hmm...well, thats subjective. A lot depends on which gun/bbl I am testing in. Some of my rifles I have shot and tested a lot and know when they are "getting there" but like the other day, we were developing a load for a friends 6XC and we were getting ejector marks and bolt swipe WAY earlier than we should have while we did not have a sticky bolt or cratered primers. Being safe, we just stopped at that point and switched from 115s (which werent grouping as well as I wanted anyhow) and we moved to 105VLDs and were one hole'in them. Still got pressure signs at what would normally be a light load in my T2ks but his Krieger bbl was building pressure early. Still running 3,000fps, so it will work for 600 yard use...would for 1000 too, but he will be running this gun at 600 only.

    Usually, I am looking for ejector flow and primers and bolt lift. But, its a bit easier when you are working with loads you have worked with in the past and sorta know where the limit is. For unfamilar rounds, I would be even more cautious. The good news, is that most cartridges I work with regularly I dont think I could blow up if I tried as you just cant get enough powder in em! Not saying you couldnt, but you can only get some much H4350 or such in a 6XC case. Trust me, I have tried to blow myself up a few times...luckly I have failed miserably at it. :)

    For 1000 and the 308 with a short bbl, you better go lighter bullet, say a 155 (the new 155 SMK or Berger 155.5 is going to be much better than the 168 anyhow and I would put them up against the 175s based on my experience with them at 1000) or heavier, a 175, to keep them supersonic at 1000. Nothing worse than keyholing and tumbling bullets!

    John
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Thanks much for the input John. Today I went out and shot out to 1,000 yards but hadn't seen your reply yet. That being the case I made a few different loads to screw with.

    My main shooting load was 155gr Scenars with 45.6grs of Varget seated .035" off the lands. I had shot this load before and saw good accuracy potential with it but since it was above the Sierra max I decided to stay away from it initially. Today it performed quite well for me again reaching out to 1,000 yards no problem and stayed accurate. I would bet with some fine tuning it could be a very good round.

    I also went out with 5 rounds a piece of the same basic set-up just adding more powder in steps. I resumed at my previous highest charge of 46.0grs and then continued to 46.4, 46.8, 47.2, 47.6, and 48.0 grs. I watched for pressure signs pretty closely since I knew I was probably pushing towards the limits. There was some primer flattening, minor ejector marks, and minor bolt swipe on some of the 45.6gr loads and all the charges up from there.

    The scarier stuff started to happen in the 47 gr range. The ejector marks started to smear off the headstamps and there was more resistance to lifting the bolt. By the time I hit the 48.0 gr loads the ejector marks were pretty much deleting letters off the headstamps. Would say these were pretty obvious signs of pressures getting too high, not too mention doing permanent damage to my brass.

    At least I found out where my rifle starts to have issues and gained some experience on the increasing severity of the pressure signs. I'm going to de-cap all the brass from the hot loads just to see if they pop out easy from the primer pockets loosening up, then put them in a do not shoot pile for other purposes.

    Luckily the 45.6gr load shoots accurate enough and fast enough for my purposes while giving me a safety margin. I'll just keep messing with it to see if I can get some tighter groups from it.

     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Yeah, I would say stay below 47grs. :)

    Measure your primer pockets after you decap them and you will quickly see which were too hot. And if your are getting enough ejector flow to mess up the writing on the case head, you are way over the limit IMHO. Back down before you blow out the butt end of the case and get blowback in the face. I also hope you had eye protection on! ALWAYS wear eye protection...always.

    Glad to hear you got a load that works at 1000. Try the new 155 SMK Palma bullet, you might like it....I sure do. Or the new Berger 155.5...they shoot about the same but I have been using the SMK due to shooting on the US team and thats what we are "supposed" to shoot so we can mate up the rifles.

    Good luck and have fun and be safe.

    John
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    Yes John, I'm not going anywhere near the 47gr load again. No need to anyhow and I have no desire to put my eyesight or my health on the line. As always I was wearing eye-protection though.

    On another note I shot another High Power comp today and got a 436 6x. Not great but at least an improvement. Like I stated earlier though this rifle really isn't set-up for this type of shoot and I am just doing it for the experience.

    Also if anyone is interested in a 1,000 yard shoot in North Carolina on Halloween check out this thread: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1365882&#Post1365882
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    That's strange. The 47 grain load only gave me 2899 FPS out of a 24".
     
    Re: Shot my 1st NRA competition today; unbelievabl

    DZ- I don't have a chrony so I don't have a clue what my MV is. All I know is I am barely above sea level and the temperature was about 68 degrees while we were shooting. Not ideal conditions for getting long range out of the .308 but it had no problems doing it.