Sidearms & Scatterguns Shotgun Course Setup. 590 Style revisited.

[Halfnutz]

I'm looking at a training site a reasonable distance from me that offers a 2 day shotgun course.

Esstac cards look popular and are US made. Not sure of the best way to carry multiples.
Dillon Blue Press has a belt dispenser for competition.
I see a bunch of gimmick looking shit and chest rigs. I don't need a mall ninja ensemble, just something to put on a belt.

Edit: Anyone used the GG&G front and rear sling mounts. I never wanted a sling on a HD gun but they are wanting it for the course.

Might as well add a light up front too.

Mossberg 590 Sling & Flashlight Mount | GG&G Tactical Accessories

The unique design of the GG&G Mossberg 590 sling and flashlight combo mount provides an easy way to mount a tactical flashlight without interfering with the sling. Call GG&G at 800-380-2540 or check it out on our website.

www.gggaz.com

Not sure about the rear mount though. Looks like it will leave a gap where the rear of trigger housing goes into the notch of the stock.

Mossberg 590 Front & Rear Looped Sling Attachments|GG&G tactical Accessories

Need a sling for your Tactical Shotgun? We ve got plenty to choose from - Choose Yours Here! Check Out The Other GG&G Mossberg 500/590 Accessories Here Looking for other Mossberg Accessories? Find Them Here! Mossberg 590 Looped Front Sling Attachment The Mossberg 590 Looped Front Sling Attachment

www.gggaz.com

Thinking a simple Magpul 2 point with hooks.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I'm looking at a training site a reasonable distance from me that offers a 2 day shotgun course.

Esstac cards look popular and are US made. Not sure of the best way to carry multiples.
Dillon Blue Press has a belt dispenser for competition.
I see a bunch of gimmick looking shit and chest rigs. I don't need a mall ninja ensemble, just something to put on a belt.

7rd ESSTAC cards fit perfectly in a 30rd AR/M16 mag pouches. I have ESSTAC pouches (unintentional combination) and the cards loaded with 2 3/4 00 fit snuggly. Any chest rig or pistol belt should hold the cards the way you want them.

 

[Halfnutz]

I have 7rd Esstacs on order with velcro backing as well as a 6 and 2rd from Specter.
I've never heard of Specter but at least they are US made.

Specter Gear Belt Mounted 6 rd. Shotshell Carrier - Fits 2'' Duty & Tactical Belts

Specter Gear Belt Mounted 6 rd. Shotshell Carrier - Fits 2' Duty & Tactical Belts. Made in USA by CCS Industries.

www.spectergear.com

 

[elwarpo]

Couple of options, really depends how much you want to spend.
Low cost

Medium cost

High cost

I have run all at various courses/ competitions. Yet I still seem to wear my old canadian combat shirt with big hip pickets and that works. Live shot in one pocket and slugs in the other. Keep a couple of boxes handy and refill as needed. Depending on the course you will be doing a lot of drills with loose rounds so pockets work.

 

[TF160 Guy]

+1 for the dump pouch and pockets. Best and cheapest options.

Bunch of shells at one time are only for classes.

 

[Halfnutz]

Tactical Tailor has a dump pouch headed my way.

 

[WindstormSCR]

Y’all will probably give me shit, but I’ve found the condor-style 25-rounder pouches to be really good in general use, especially after the elastic breaks in a little. If you’re doing drills with loose shells then definitely a dump pouch or similar is good. Amazon link is just for example, definitely don’t buy from there as the chances of getting a knockoff are very high.

 

[Anb618]

If the class/Site you’re going is where I assume, you’ll need to carry 25rds on your person per instruction cycle before restocking. This is the best minimum solution I’ve used;

2x HSGI 30rd rifle tacos
3x ESSTAC 7rd cards
Dump pouch of your choice to hold empty cards, and extra loose rounds if you want.

Above, and more than 4 in the gun and you have 25+rds on you at all times. Throw some 3M self adhesive loop on your shotgun, stick one of the cards on there.
Toss the other two cards in the HSGI tacos. Dump pouch for more loose shells and anything else you want to carry.

Have fun. Been wanting to do a training course there for a while.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Esstac cards with Velcro on your gun and a few 30rd mag pouches. You just rip the dry one off and stick a new one on.

 

[Halfnutz]

If the class/Site you’re going is where I assume, you’ll need to carry 25rds on your person per instruction cycle before restocking. This is the best minimum solution I’ve used;

2x HSGI 30rd rifle tacos
3x ESSTAC 7rd cards
Dump pouch of your choice to hold empty cards, and extra loose rounds if you want.

Above, and more than 4 in the gun and you have 25+rds on you at all times. Throw some 3M self adhesive loop on your shotgun, stick one of the cards on there.
Toss the other two cards in the HSGI tacos. Dump pouch for more loose shells and anything else you want to carry.

Have fun. Been wanting to do a training course there for a while.

Yep, Mt Carroll.
3x 7rd Esstac Cards, 6rd & 2rd Specter belt loop carriers, 8+1 in the gun and 4 in the speed feed stock. (21+8+9+4= a lot of feck'n weight).

And because I can't leave well enough alone, I'm calling Vang Comp later to bring the old brass bead 590 up to snuff if their turn around time is there.
I should probably just jump on the Benelli or Berretta train, but I've always wanted to give the old Mossy the treatment. I bought it used in 92 for $192.60 out the door.

 

[427Cobra]

I’d be careful with attaching stuff to certain shotguns, my HK Benelli M1 and Benelli M2 do not like any extra weight on them. As for ammo management I would at what the 3 gunners use, I do the shoot load 4(2 at a time) load 4 shoot dry fire with a 4 second par time, professionals are sub 3 seconds on the move.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Yep, Mt Carroll.
3x 7rd Esstac Cards, 6rd & 2rd Specter belt loop carriers, 8+1 in the gun and 4 in the speed feed stock. (21+8+9+4= a lot of feck'n weight).

And because I can't leave well enough alone, I'm calling Vang Comp later to bring the old brass bead 590 up to snuff if their turn around time is there.
I should probably just jump on the Benelli or Berretta train, but I've always wanted to give the old Mossy the treatment. I bought it used in 92 for $192.60 out the door.

I think you're going to find out quickly how much it sucks single loading a shotgun from your belt or dump pouch. Violin loading from the side saddle or stock, while still sucking A LOT, sucks less by comparison. Buy more ESSTAC cards, you will thank me.

 

[Halfnutz]

And she's headed to Vang Comp Wednesday for the treatment. Still need to finalize sling mounts when it gets back.

 

[PDXGS]

Gunner Solutions makes a decent shell rack.....much faster than the clipped shell solutions...IMHO
That said, I had a chance to shoot a night 3-gun match behind Lena M's squad several years ago....nothing slows her down....so, if it works for her, I'd try and emulate that as much as possible. I'm just not that skilled!

Ez8 Generation 2 Shotshell Carrier in Carbon Black

Color - Carbon Black Capacity - 8 Shotshells Fits all 2 3/4" & 3" Shot Shells 3 Position Tilting Tool-less adjustment for a perfect fit in the field. Facilitates all shotgun loading styles. Shells are secure and only come out when you want them! Shown with Tek Lok attachment

gunner-solutions.myshopify.com

As for bandoliers and the like, I'd suggest keeping the bandolier on your body and the shells off of the sling....it gets heavy fast and it's awkward as hell to try and grab shells off of a swinging sling .

 

[Halfnutz]

Gunner Solutions makes a decent shell rack.....much faster than the clipped shell solutions...IMHO
That said, I had a chance to shoot a night 3-gun match behind Lena M's squad several years ago....nothing slows her down....so, if it works for her, I'd try and emulate that as much as possible. I'm just not that skilled!

Ez8 Generation 2 Shotshell Carrier in Carbon Black

Color - Carbon Black Capacity - 8 Shotshells Fits all 2 3/4" & 3" Shot Shells 3 Position Tilting Tool-less adjustment for a perfect fit in the field. Facilitates all shotgun loading styles. Shells are secure and only come out when you want them! Shown with Tek Lok attachment

gunner-solutions.myshopify.com

As for bandoliers and the like, I'd suggest keeping the bandolier on your body and the shells off of the sling....it gets heavy fast and it's awkward as hell to try and grab shells off of a swinging sling .

Years ago Lewis Awerbuck had a book on Combat shotguns. I may still have it some where. He wrote about the sling with shell holders creating a pendulum during firing. So that's always stuck in my head. Also warned about a sling catching on doorknobs an such.
So I've always taken those things to heart on any home defense long gun.
Mr. Awerbuck evidently offed himself around 2014. I guess I didn't catch event or the why, but found out whilst trying to Google the spelling of his name, which may still be wrong as there were several spellings. I probably bought his book about 1992 when I picked up the old Mossberg.

Thanks for that link, I was wondering who made those ridged carriers like was posted above.

 

[strikeeagle1]

Some examples of shotshell cartridge loaders. The aluminum devices (Mercedes v. Kia) are so much nicer than the polymer styles. Blackhawk makes a tactical forearm shell holder that is extraordinarily fast to load the breech by simple rotation of firearm. Rogers Shooting School uses the Winchester 18" 1300 pump gun for their Advanced Shotgun Course and use Safariland dual shell holders on both strong / weak sides of operator. I prefer SBS shotguns with single point slings. I set up my 14" 590A1 as shown; Aasgard forward shell holders are handy too.

Rogers Shotgun Test 4 Also copy.mov

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Rogers Shotgun Test 1 copy.mov

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[WindstormSCR]

Still stand by my earlier recommendation, but this thread is like a litany of all the reasons I went to mag fed shotguns. I still find it strange Mossberg @ co went for a home grown mag design instead of the MKA1919 pattern mags that have had the kinks all worked out and become a sort of defacto standard

 

[Halfnutz]

I've never seen snap caps worn to that degree! Someone has been getting in some practice.

Dillon has California Comp Works in thier catalog. I hadn't see the Progressive ones. Always seems to be an upgrade.

Edit: Unless the upgrade is out of business, like Progressive Machine appears to be.

 

[bluegrasspicker]

Gunner Solutions makes a decent shell rack.....much faster than the clipped shell solutions...IMHO
That said, I had a chance to shoot a night 3-gun match behind Lena M's squad several years ago....nothing slows her down....so, if it works for her, I'd try and emulate that as much as possible. I'm just not that skilled!

Ez8 Generation 2 Shotshell Carrier in Carbon Black

Color - Carbon Black Capacity - 8 Shotshells Fits all 2 3/4" & 3" Shot Shells 3 Position Tilting Tool-less adjustment for a perfect fit in the field. Facilitates all shotgun loading styles. Shells are secure and only come out when you want them! Shown with Tek Lok attachment

gunner-solutions.myshopify.com

As for bandoliers and the like, I'd suggest keeping the bandolier on your body and the shells off of the sling....it gets heavy fast and it's awkward as hell to try and grab shells off of a swinging sling .

These Gunner Solutions are what I always used in 3-gun. I prefer them because they hold the ammo solid. None ever bumped out. The other more dedicated 3-gun options seemed less secure to me.

The only thing is be sure to use some thread lock once you get them adjusted. I switched out the thumb nuts for actual regular nuts from the hardware store too.

Thanks for posting those PDXGS. I didn't realize they're still around. I might pick up another unit while the gettin's good...

 

[Evintos]

These Gunner Solutions are what I always used in 3-gun. I prefer them because they hold the ammo solid. None ever bumped out. The other more dedicated 3-gun options seemed less secure to me.

The only thing is be sure to use some thread lock once you get them adjusted. I switched out the thumb nuts for actual regular nuts from the hardware store too.

Thanks for posting those PDXGS. I didn't realize they're still around. I might pick up another unit while the gettin's good...

Agree with the bold. I've lost two adjustment knobs just from running around. Switched out to male/female screw fasteners and rubber washers to absorb vibration and prevent it from spinning loose instead of thread locker.

 

[PDXGS]

I won some at a match and never really used them because I was running a Saiga12. I ended up giving them to a buddy who shot a Benelli and who eventually bought that Saiga from me.
I keep a bandolier next to my shtf 870. Mostly loaded with buck and a few slugs....and some Prairie Storm...to get the attention of anyone still not listening.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Unless you're taking a class on shotgun competition I'd probably stick with gear you're likely to use in a real world scenario. Velcro shell cards are so you can get ready for each firing string faster, not so you can reload from your belt faster. It's your decision but the game gear eliminates some of the benefits of the training.

 

[Halfnutz]

Unless you're taking a class on shotgun competition I'd probably stick with gear you're likely to use in a real world scenario. Velcro shell cards are so you can get ready for each firing string faster, not so you can reload from your belt faster. It's your decision but the game gear eliminates some of the benefits of the training.

On this we totally agree. The comp stuff looks cool and is fast, but it is a defense orientated course. I have kept that in mind.

Showing the comp stuff may help someone else.

If I need to empty a 9rd 12ga and reload multiple times outside of a class, I have made some very poor life decisions.

 

[stefan73]

On this we totally agree. The comp stuff looks cool and is fast, but it is a defense orientated course. I have kept that in mind.

Showing the comp stuff may help someone else.

If I need to empty a 9rd 12ga and reload multiple times outside of a class, I have made some very poor life decisions.

Or someone else did

 

[E. Bryant]

If I need to empty a 9rd 12ga and reload multiple times outside of a class, I have made some very poor life decisions.

I continue to feel this way about the "limited capacity" argument against using shotguns for home defense - if 9 rounds of buckshot are not solving my current problem, then I'm not sure the problem is going to get solved without backup

 

[PDXGS]

Agreed. I guess learning how to reload (insert defensive gun type here)___________ competently should be part of your training as much as being able to ID and neutralize the threat in a reasonable amount of time w/o injuring innocent bystanders.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

On this we totally agree. The comp stuff looks cool and is fast, but it is a defense orientated course. I have kept that in mind.

Showing the comp stuff may help someone else.

If I need to empty a 9rd 12ga and reload multiple times outside of a class, I have made some very poor life decisions.

There's a raging debate over on another forum about whether or not a shotgun is good for home defense. I can't fathom a scenario around the house where seven to nine rounds of 00 isn't sufficient. 00 is devastating.

 

[WindstormSCR]

There's a raging debate over on another forum about whether or not a shotgun is good for home defense. I can't fathom a scenario around the house where seven to nine rounds of 00 isn't sufficient. 00 is devastating.

please tell me the concern is overpenetration and not lethality?

 

[stefan73]

Some examples of shotshell cartridge loaders. The aluminum devices (Mercedes v. Kia) are so much nicer than the polymer styles. Blackhawk makes a tactical forearm shell holder that is extraordinarily fast to load the breech by simple rotation of firearm. Rogers Shooting School uses the Winchester 18" 1300 pump gun for their Advanced Shotgun Course and use Safariland dual shell holders on both strong / weak sides of operator. I prefer SBS shotguns with single point slings. I set up my 14" 590A1 as shown; Aasgard forward shell holders are handy too.

Rogers Shotgun Test 4 Also copy.mov

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Rogers Shotgun Test 1 copy.mov

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

View attachment 7807894View attachment 7807895View attachment 7807896View attachment 7807897View attachment 7807898View attachment 7807899View attachment 7807901View attachment 7807903

I like the single "match saver", the double looks like it would be in the way.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

please tell me the concern is overpenetration and not lethality?

It's on Arfcom but I can't find it in a search. I believe the discussion centers on a video put out by Military Arms Channel and the belief a short barreled rifle is better. I didn't read most of the thread, it's at least seven pages long.

Found it:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Shotguns-suck-for-home-defense/5-2529455/

 

[Milf Dots]

Years ago Lewis Awerbuck had a book on Combat shotguns. I may still have it some where. He wrote about the sling with shell holders creating a pendulum during firing. So that's always stuck in my head. Also warned about a sling catching on doorknobs an such.
So I've always taken those things to heart on any home defense long gun.
Mr. Awerbuck evidently offed himself around 2014. I guess I didn't catch event or the why, but found out whilst trying to Google the spelling of his name, which may still be wrong as there were several spellings. I probably bought his book about 1992 when I picked up the old Mossberg.

Thanks for that link, I was wondering who made those ridged carriers like was posted above.

If my memory is correct, Mr. Awerbuck had necessary neck/back surgery that unintentionally caused unresolvable, long term, debilitating vertigo... He tried everything to address the vertigo. We are diminished.

 

[Rogue Canuck]

I keep an old M1 14.5” with aluminum side saddle in the truck and invariably I’m putting a loose round back in as they work loose. It’s a nice package but on gun storage is less than optimal. Benelli’s are finicky for sure another full-size M1 tactical will not cycle with side saddle and Muzzle break installed. Was testing to see what would effect cycling.

 

[Halfnutz]

I keep an old M1 14.5” with aluminum side saddle in the truck and invariably I’m putting a loose round back in as they work loose. It’s a nice package but on gun storage is less than optimal. Benelli’s are finicky for sure another full-size M1 tactical will not cycle with side saddle and Muzzle break installed. Was testing to see what would effect cycling.

The benefit of a pump, it doesn't care what you hang off of it as long as you aren't pinching the receiver.
I initially had a side saddle on it and it used a machine screw in place of one of the trigger group pins, over tightening that locked up the action. Not a concern now that I've switched to velcro and the Esstac cards. (also gained 1 round up to 7 over the side saddle).

 

[strikeeagle1]

Benelli’s are finicky for sure another full-size M1 tactical will not cycle with side saddle and Muzzle break installed. Was testing to see what would effect cycling.

As long as the added weight to the inertia bolt cycling Benelli's is LESS than the bolt weight it will usually function fine. Also, the inertia bolts are sensitive to inadequate butt stock support to function properly.

 

[Halfnutz]

As long as the added weight to the inertia bolt cycling Benelli's is LESS than the bolt weight it will usually function fine. Also, the inertia bolts are sensitive to inadequate butt stock support to function properly.

View attachment 7809132View attachment 7809133

So what you are saying is some people aren't smart enough to run a semi auto?

 

[E. Bryant]

please tell me the concern is overpenetration and not lethality?

The arguments I'm referencing all seem to revolve around capacity. ARs hold 30+ and pistols hold 20+ and they are quick to reload, and shotguns only hold 7-8 and are slow to reload. Occasionally someone will bring up issues like overall length or recoil, but mostly it seems that we're arguing about how many times the trigger can be pulled before running the gun dry.

It seems to me that if I think I need more than 8 round to deal with a home defense scenario, then what I really need isn't more rounds but rather a different mailing address, or at least a bunch of additional guys on my side who are good at pulling triggers.

I believe it was Clint Smith who made the observation that as magazine capacity increases, so does the number of rounds discharged during a fight, and so does the number of shots required to generate a hit on target. That latter issue is particularly a concern in virtually any SD scenario involving potential bystanders.

For those in rural areas, rifles do address certain problems better than shotguns. There's a treeline on the other side of the road about 200 yards off my front porch; someone hiding in there with any centerfire rifle could give me a bad day if I only had a scattergun. This seems like a specialized need and not something I would address with general self-defense advice.

 

[E. Bryant]

I think it's time to discuss precision shotgun techniques for home defense:

Not my picture, obviously; no way that I'd be caught with that optics setup or - ewww - a Caldwell tripod, and that bench looks way nicer than the ones at any range which I use

 

[strikeeagle1]

The problem with a shotgun for home defense is if using buckshot you have 9-12 .30 caliber rounds to account for with every shot fired.

I prefer a SBR in 5.56 as round-to-round accountability and over penetration is less of an issue than 9 mm handgun (as shown by DOJ FBI studies).

Some of my short ones , but for home defense, if I had to pick one, I would choose the 20 ga. mossberg with low-recoil buckshot loads, not a 12 gauge.

The Benelli M4 is pretty fast though.

 

[Halfnutz]

@strikeeagle1, A couple things on that first Mossy for me to look into. I sent mine off yesterday to Vang Comp.

I have looked at a couple fore ends with rails, I would think they would be like a cheese grater.
Some where I picked up a rail that uses the Heat Shield bolts for attachment. No idea who made it.
It works for mounting a light. The downside is its fixed and not on the fore end as I'd like.

Shotgun Forearm, Tri-Rail, Synthetic, 12 Gauge (Fits 7 3/4" Action Slide)

Black Tri-Rail Synthetic Forend

www.mossberg.com

 

[Halfnutz]

Ran across this little gem the other day. Around 1:25:30 there is a dynamic movement 3D hostage shot with 00Buck at close range. Every pellet accounted for.

 

[Crews]

The arguments I'm referencing all seem to revolve around capacity. ARs hold 30+ and pistols hold 20+ and they are quick to reload, and shotguns only hold 7-8 and are slow to reload. Occasionally someone will bring up issues like overall length or recoil, but mostly it seems that we're arguing about how many times the trigger can be pulled before running the gun dry.

It seems to me that if I think I need more than 8 round to deal with a home defense scenario, then what I really need isn't more rounds but rather a different mailing address.

Agreed with your takeaway. If you’ve got 8 rounds of 12ga on board you’ve got yourself an “8 bad guy gun”

For shotgun/self defense training I believe I’d focus on velcro cards and training on reloading with ammo stored on the weapon. I suspect in a real world scenario you’re not going to end up strapping on your battle belt with the fancy 3gun holders.

 

[Crews]

The problem with a shotgun for home defense is if using buckshot you have 9-12 .30 caliber rounds to account for with every shot fired.

8” circle, 15 yards (longest distance inside my house) 12” SBS. I think I’ll be okay with the right ammo, thanks.

 

[kthomas]

I think it's time to discuss precision shotgun techniques for home defense:

View attachment 7809505

Not my picture, obviously; no way that I'd be caught with that optics setup or - ewww - a Caldwell tripod, and that bench looks way nicer than the ones at any range which I use

Where's the YouTube video demonstrating free recoil technique with a 12ga?

Has Jim See put such a video out yet?

 

[WindstormSCR]

I believe it was Clint Smith who made the observation that as magazine capacity increases, so does the number of rounds discharged during a fight, and so does the number of shots required to generate a hit on target. That latter issue is particularly a concern in virtually any SD scenario involving potential bystanders.

It was, but he also has this relevant gem: “Pistols put holes in people; rifles put holes through people; a shotgun with the right load at the right range will physically remove a chunk of shit from your opponent and throw that shit on the floor”

I can see the argument about accounting for rounds fired and over penetration, but I also think the vast majority of folks in a defensive scenario aren’t trained for marksmanship under stress, thus the shotgun will always be my recommendation because at usual home defense distances, the only requirement is “close enough”

Hell, I know I don’t have enough training for close quarters marksmanship under exigent circumstances (mostly because that level of adrenaline is hard to simulate), its why I use a bullpup shotgun with a 10rd mag of Federal 3” 00 buck

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I'm glad OP is taking a shotgun class. Hopefully they spend some time on patterning. Even this thread proves that most commentors on the internet don't have enough experience or practical knowledge to give the advice they are giving. As with everything firearms related, don't trust anyone's word, prove it for yourself.

 

[strikeeagle1]

A couple things on that first Mossy for me to look into. I sent mine off yesterday to Vang Comp.

8” circle, 15 yards (longest distance inside my house) 12” SBS.

Vang Comp fashions the muzzle for a 32 MOA pattern, results in 8 inches @ 25 yards; pattern shown for the 14" Vang Comp barreled Wilson Combat @ 25 meters.

Even this thread proves that most commentors on the internet don't have enough experience or practical knowledge to give the advice they are giving.

Please, and you know this how ?

I also think the vast majority of folks in a defensive scenario aren’t trained for marksmanship under stress, thus the shotgun will always be my recommendation because at usual home defense distances, the only requirement is “close enough”

Taking an advanced shotgun course @ an elite school such as the Rogers Shooting School will quickly demonstrate "experienced operators" will miss a a full size body target, let alone the designated head plate @ 7 yards, as the shot column is only a couple of inches wide at that distance, thus the criticality of down range accountability of a dozen .30 cal rounds off-target.

I have looked at a couple fore ends with rails, I would think they would be like a cheese grater.

Yes, it would be. Need to use polymer ladder rails to cover the sharp corners of any picatinny rail.

I run a Rogers single-point slings on all 2-handed firearms, pretty hard to get tangled up with a single point; pretty sure I'm not slinging any firearm in the house.

 

[strikeeagle1]

I initially had a side saddle on it and it used a machine screw in place of one of the trigger group pins, over tightening that locked up the action.

That is the Gospel. I modify my Mesa side saddles with a screw-receiver fixation allowing continued use of trigger group pins and avoiding the over-tightening of the receiver about the trigger group that can impair proper functioning when using the provided Chicago-style fasteners with Mesa sidesaddles and doesn't conceal the serial number.

 

[strikeeagle1]

I also modify the sidesaddles to secure the single-point attachment so it's not floppy about when not in use.

 

[strikeeagle1]

Getting back to slide-action shotguns, an inexpensive great choice is the Herstal FN "Police" shotgun, essentially the Winchester 1300 "Speed Pump" that was discontinued and fabrication rights sold to FN. Utilizing a rotary bolt (AR-like) it's really fast and uncomplicated. This is my 18" FN Police; replaced the front sight with a Hi-Viz, modified the carrier to avoid fatal short-stroke lock-up's. It has choke tube selections, unusual for a pump shotgun. I milled out the "hump" to allow for agressive pump action to clear double-feeds, as the Remington 870 "Flex-tabs" provided for. Also, the buck-horn rear sight has sharp edges that will cut your hand with over-the-top reloading methods, had to radius those after band-aid application. Mossbergs open design avoids all this commotion; their dual-extractors are a nice touch, not found elsewhere.

 

[PDXGS]

Red dot pussies......y'all went w/batteries, I went stabby