Shotgun shell reloading....any of you guys do it.

[fpgt72]

I am just getting into shot shell reloading. I have done metallic for roughly 20 years and never shot enough shotgun to justify it.....till about two years ago. Started playing a few shotgun games and found it really fun.

Bought a MEC 600jr, and have everything needed but shot, and that should arrive any day now.

The thing that still confuses me is the powder charges. There is no range. In metallic you have a charge that will do Xfps, all the way up to this much more will do Z fps.

In shotguns it just gives one charge weight.

Both the wife's and my clay guns are automatics, so I know I need enough "oomph" to cycle the gun, but not sure how to address this if I have issues.

 

[DIBBS]

I have loaded tens of thousands of shotshell loads, none recently(in last 10-15 yrs). You may want to pencil out cost of components/time versus buying factory ammo, according to a couple friends of mine that still shoot trap.\\ Your handloads, if you test patterns... should do better than factory if you can find a reliable supply of components.

That being said, there should be a range of charge weights for a given powder, wad, and shot weight combination.

I think this is the newest version of the manual I used to use. You should be able to load "light" to heavy loads, simply by varying the powder charge. Unless loading really light loads, you shouldn't have a problem with your autoloaders functioning.

Good luck.

 

[DAMNKID]

I don’t know what reloading manual you are looking at or referring from but shotshell reloading data has different powder charges for different velocity also powder charges will change when switching out components such as wads and primers and amount of shot. What gauge are your reloading? What components are you using?

 

[fpgt72]

I have loaded tens of thousands of shotshell loads, none recently(in last 10-15 yrs). You may want to pencil out cost of components/time versus buying factory ammo, according to a couple friends of mine that still shoot trap.\\ Your handloads, if you test patterns... should do better than factory if you can find a reliable supply of components.

That being said, there should be a range of charge weights for a given powder, wad, and shot weight combination.

I think this is the newest version of the manual I used to use. You should be able to load "light" to heavy loads, simply by varying the powder charge. Unless loading really light loads, you shouldn't have a problem with your autoloaders functioning.

Good luck.

That is the manual I have, and not really a good range, I am guessing the same weight of shot in the same hull with the same wad I could do anything between the "target" load and the "hunting" load.

Wife is on her way home with 25lbs of shot, with that I have everything I need to start.

Going to start with 20, as over the past couple months I have saved and ordered everything needed to load that. That is what I shoot most. I will likely go to 16 as I really enjoy that, but don't have alot of old hulls as the ammo is just so darn hard to find, and ordering new hulls again no one has anything. I think for that press I am going to try the Lee. They look so cheap, but everyone says they work great and are long lasting.

 

[fpgt72]

I don’t know what reloading manual you are looking at or referring from but shotshell reloading data has different powder charges for different velocity also powder charges will change when switching out components such as wads and primers and amount of shot. What gauge are your reloading? What components are you using?

I understand this, the manual I have is the new Lyman. They list several different loads for say 2 3/4 7/8th ounce number 7.5. The loads are split up between target, field and IIRC hunting, going up in charge weights as we move. I am guessing that anything inside that range is fair game.

 

[DAMNKID]

I’m sure you know but depending on what your shooting skeet,trap,sporting clays,field use determines what load you will want to use. Shot pattern can also be affected by velocity more so when in the upper end of velocity.You can also bore/hone out the powder bushing to fine tune your load.

 

[Modoc]

Covered by others while typing.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

The reason you see a single powder charge instead of a range is shotshells retain the old "dram equivalent" standard. Consider the old "standard" load for 12 gauge: 3 drams black powder equivalent and 1 1/8 ounces of shot. The normal expected velocity for that load is 1200fps. So, you'll notice that manuals - especially older ones - often show the same velocity for different combinations of primer, powder, and wad.

Speaking from experience - I started shotshell reloading in the late 1960s - I can tell you there is a lot more choice in velocities. "Back in the day," a "light target" load was "2 3/4-1 1/8-9" - last number being shot size with nominal velocity at 1145fps. Now, you can buy 3/4-ounce 12-gauge wads. A "duck load" was "3 3/4-1 1/4-6:" an ounce and a quarter of #6 (or #4 or whatever) shot at 1330fps. Now you can load an ounce and a half in a 12-guage - once the purview of the 10-gauge.

There is simply no need to tweak velocity the way we do with rifle. Some people will dink with loads to try to achieve optimal patterning, which can be useful for longer-range pursuits like trap.

I shot NSSA skeet for many years; with nominal range of 20 yards, "optimal patterning" in 12- and 20-gauge was achieved by keeping all the shot in the shell until "bang." Patterning was a bit more important with 1/2-ounce .410 shells, but even then simply using "hard" (high-antimony) shot was enough... if one patterned half a dozen .410s at 20 yards, you'd see gaps in the pattern big enough for a target to escape... but the reality of patterning is it's 2-dimensional while target and shot string are 3-dimensional in space/time.

I never messed with trying to tweak patterning. In fact, several years ago, our club hired an outfit to "mine" 50 years' shot accumulation from the fall zone and make it available (cleaned & bagged) to members much cheaper than new shot. That stuff was nasty- mixed sized from 7 1/2 to 9, and not a round pellet in the many tons collected. But it worked just fine for 12 and 20 gauge skeet.

I picked a load and ran it - main thing was trying to find loads where powders worked for more than one gauge. The only tweaking I did was to hone out my .410 charge bars enough to get a full 1/2 ounce of Lawrence "magnum" #9s in the shell - high-antimony shot is a little lighter than standard soft lead shot, and in .410 you wanted every pellet you could get!

Shotshell loading is So.Much.Easier!!! than metallic reloading. For 12 and 20, if all the pieces of a listed load fit in the hull and the crimp is right, you're golden.

 

[fpgt72]

The reason you see a single powder charge instead of a range is shotshells retain the old "dram equivalent" standard. Consider the old "standard" load for 12 gauge: 3 drams black powder equivalent and 1 1/8 ounces of shot. The normal expected velocity for that load is 1200fps. So, you'll notice that manuals - especially older ones - often show the same velocity for different combinations of primer, powder, and wad.

Speaking from experience - I started shotshell reloading in the late 1960s - I can tell you there is a lot more choice in velocities. "Back in the day," a "light target" load was "2 3/4-1 1/8-9" - last number being shot size with nominal velocity at 1145fps. Now, you can buy 3/4-ounce 12-gauge wads. A "duck load" was "3 3/4-1 1/4-6:" an ounce and a quarter of #6 (or #4 or whatever) shot at 1330fps. Now you can load an ounce and a half in a 12-guage - once the purview of the 10-gauge.

There is simply no need to tweak velocity the way we do with rifle. Some people will dink with loads to try to achieve optimal patterning, which can be useful for longer-range pursuits like trap.

I shot NSSA skeet for many years; with nominal range of 20 yards, "optimal patterning" in 12- and 20-gauge was achieved by keeping all the shot in the shell until "bang." Patterning was a bit more important with 1/2-ounce .410 shells, but even then simply using "hard" (high-antimony) shot was enough... if one patterned half a dozen .410s at 20 yards, you'd see gaps in the pattern big enough for a target to escape... but the reality of patterning is it's 2-dimensional while target and shot string are 3-dimensional in space/time.

I never messed with trying to tweak patterning. In fact, several years ago, our club hired an outfit to "mine" 50 years' shot accumulation from the fall zone and make it available (cleaned & bagged) to members much cheaper than new shot. That stuff was nasty- mixed sized from 7 1/2 to 9, and not a round pellet in the many tons collected. But it worked just fine for 12 and 20 gauge skeet.

I picked a load and ran it - main thing was trying to find loads where powders worked for more than one gauge. The only tweaking I did was to hone out my .410 charge bars enough to get a full 1/2 ounce of Lawrence "magnum" #9s in the shell - high-antimony shot is a little lighter than standard soft lead shot, and in .410 you wanted every pellet you could get!

Shotshell loading is So.Much.Easier!!! than metallic reloading. For 12 and 20, if all the pieces of a listed load fit in the hull and the crimp is right, you're golden.

In reading the Lyman manual that was the first time I saw the word dram, well aside from computer stuff. That sent me off on a wild tangent that went into just why over 100 years after smokeless, we still do this black powder dram thing. And yes I am one of those people that will actually read the manual, all that stuff in front of the loads, yup read all of it. Might be why I get my hackles up a bit when someone says RTFM to me, but they don't know that. For this odd reason I can't figure out the wife likes my face as is, and I have no desire to go around with a new nickname ole one eye, or lefty.

I know you understand, but if anyone is following this thread this was a good article I found on this entire dram thing.

What’s ‘Dram Equivalent’ Mean?

When you’re armed with the knowledge of what dram equivalents are, you are better prepared to select the ammunition best suited for your shotgunning needs.

www.letsgoshooting.org

I don't explain well, and think I have a good understanding with what you posted up, but I am going to put a few pics up that might help illustrate my confusion.

This is the manual out of the 5th edition Lyman book, the go to book I was told. This is for 20 loads.

You can see in the universal load, the differences between the target and field loads. My original thinking like you pointed out there is no range for the field load like there is in rifle, or hand gun. It is just that flat charge. I was thinking you could fool around between those two numbers, not a real big range, one grain. But now I get it just does not really work that way.

Thanks for your post, it was the light bulb moment I needed.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Thanks for your post, it was the light bulb moment I needed.

Glad it helped. For me, there was very much a nostalgia element, recalling the day I learned that not all shotshells are the same.

I was introduced to shotguns at age 13 or so, in my dad's tiny hometown on the Lake Ontario shore. My cousin - much older than me - had (still has) a 12-guage Browning A5. Anyone who knows how this classic Browning works understands the substantial and peculiar double-shuffle recoil, how the friction ring on the magazine tube had different positions for "light" and "heavy" loads...

I digress. So, when we visited Dad's family, Dad would buy me a box of target loads and we'd take the A5 to a dump outside town. He would throw bottles up in the air and I'd blast them. This happened for like two summer visits. Then, the next trip, we went into the town hardware store to buy a box of shells. I remember the owner telling Dad he didn't have any "light loads." So Dad bought a box of the shells that WERE available. Back to my cousin's house we went, and I clearly remember - this was over 50 years ago - Dad telling everyone, "We're going over to [dump] to get his shoulder sore." I didn't know what that meant; I had no trouble managing the shotgun and I never missed a bottle!

So Dad hands me a shell, I drop it in the breech and close it, shoulder the gun, and he flings a bottle into the air. BLAM!!!!! Instead of just shattering, the bottle disappeared in a glass streak about three feet long, I staggered back a step or two, and I looked at Dad like WTF JUST HAPPENED?

No "2 3/4 - 1 1/8 - 9" shells that time. "3 3/4 - 1 1/4 - 6" was way different. I think I made it through that box of shells, but it wasn't as fun as it had always been before.

Funny thing, recoil. We always said, "There are two kinds of skeet shooters: those who flinch and those who will." Many people shot 20 guage in the 12-gauge event, trading an inch at the edge of the pattern for reduced recoil. Fast froward a couple of decades, and see how PRS folk have abandoned the 6.5CM family in favor of bunny-fart 6s.

'Scuse me, I'm breaking in my new 6BR barrel....

 

[Baron23]

In reading the Lyman manual that was the first time I saw the word dram, well aside from computer stuff. That sent me off on a wild tangent that went into just why over 100 years after smokeless, we still do this black powder dram thing. And yes I am one of those people that will actually read the manual, all that stuff in front of the loads, yup read all of it. Might be why I get my hackles up a bit when someone says RTFM to me, but they don't know that. For this odd reason I can't figure out the wife likes my face as is, and I have no desire to go around with a new nickname ole one eye, or lefty.

I know you understand, but if anyone is following this thread this was a good article I found on this entire dram thing.

What’s ‘Dram Equivalent’ Mean?

When you’re armed with the knowledge of what dram equivalents are, you are better prepared to select the ammunition best suited for your shotgunning needs.

www.letsgoshooting.org

I don't explain well, and think I have a good understanding with what you posted up, but I am going to put a few pics up that might help illustrate my confusion.

This is the manual out of the 5th edition Lyman book, the go to book I was told. This is for 20 loads.

You can see in the universal load, the differences between the target and field loads. My original thinking like you pointed out there is no range for the field load like there is in rifle, or hand gun. It is just that flat charge. I was thinking you could fool around between those two numbers, not a real big range, one grain. But now I get it just does not really work that way.

View attachment 7994963


Thanks for your post, it was the light bulb moment I needed.

I load Hogdon powders for shotshell and like my my friend, @DownhillFromHere , I shot competitive skeet for a very long time (note, I didn't say that I was competitive...he was....but I just a contributor to the purse! haha).

Clays for 12 ga, Universal for 20 & 28, and Lil Gun for 410 and so I use Hogdon's reloading data which does show differing recipes using differing components as well as velocity and pressure figures.

They do not distinguish between target loads and field loads as in Lyman's that you showed and I personally agree with this as to me its an artificial distinction.

Just came back from a hunt in Georgia where we shot the hell out of quail with #8 shot, 20 ga, target loads.

I believe that the only reason to make such a distinction is that clay target shooters are high volume and don't want any snappier recoil then they have to have (well, 27 yd handicap, mortar shell shooting, trap shooters aside haha) while I guess they think that hunters don't care and want a zippier round.

Personally, I don't buy into the faster speed idea. For skeet type distances, if you look at the math, cranking up the speed results in very negligible differences in actual lead required...very negligible compared to pattern size.

Take Rem STS, 12 ga, 1 1/8 oz target load. Most commonly runs at 1145 FPS. Then they make their Nitro 27 (1235 fps) and Nitro Sporting Clays (1300 fps) and I submit that 90 to 155 fps over shotgun distances really ain't going to make a shot that you would have otherwise missed.

I also see waterfowl loads for sale that are absolutely ridiculous in terms of length (3 1/2"), load (1 5/8 oz), and speed (1430 fps). Some 1 3/8" loads are being sold at 1550 and even 1675 (Winchester Blind Side). If you can't shoot a duck or a goose with a much less aggressive load than this, IMO you won't hit 'em with these cannon loads. But you will loosen your fillings! haha

Since you are reloading in order to shoot clay targets, stick with the target loads in the Lyman's that you showed. 1185 to 1200 ain't a feather weight load that will give your 20 ga semi any heartburn. If it does, then your gun needs to be cleaned.

Best of luck...shotshell reloading is much more relaxing and forgiving that metallic, IMO.

 

[spife7980]

I think the hunting rounds are faster than the sporter rounds not so much because of hit/miss but so that you dont have so many damn whitewings that just soak up the #8 shot from 25 yards out and keep on trucking to mexico.
Heavier 7.5 and faster speeds kill the bigger doves better.

 

[Baron23]

I think the hunting rounds are faster than the sporter rounds not so much because of hit/miss but so that you dont have so many damn whitewings that just soak up the #8 shot from 25 yards out and keep on trucking to mexico.
Heavier 7.5 and faster speeds kill the bigger doves better.

I don’t disagree but 1255 ain’t really a screaming hot load compared to the OPs photos showing 1185-1200 for “target” loads.

And I absolutely agree that shot size is a valid consideration when hunting. Sure don’t hunt waterfowl w small shot.

Cheers

 

[spife7980]

I don’t disagree but 1255 ain’t really a screaming hot load compared to the OPs photos showing 1185-1200 for “target” loads.

And I absolutely agree that shot size is a valid consideration when hunting. Sure don’t hunt waterfowl w small shot.

Cheers

Thats also 7/8 20 ga vs the 12 with 1 1/8 but I agree, its not that much more but ~10% difference from top to bottom all else equal in the various lines. (I cant believe what they list the prices of this stuff at I may have to start loading shot gun once I run out).

 

[Baron23]

Thats also 7/8 20 ga vs the 12 with 1 1/8 but I agree, its not that much more but ~10% difference from top to bottom all else equal in the various lines. (I cant believe what they list the prices of this stuff at I may have to start loading shot gun once I run out).
View attachment 7995196

Yeah, but if you shoot em in the head it doesn't make any difference! haha

And I still like lighter recoil within reason....and yes, the load needs to suit the application and "field" use covers a LOT of ground.

And the price of ammo (and components) is killing clay target sports....price and availability...just making it really hard for a lot of folks.

Cheers

 

[fpgt72]

Yeah, but if you shoot em in the head it doesn't make any difference! haha

And I still like lighter recoil within reason....and yes, the load needs to suit the application and "field" use covers a LOT of ground.

And the price of ammo (and components) is killing clay target sports....price and availability...just making it really hard for a lot of folks.

Cheers

This is what drove me to look into this in the first place, I don't hunt anymore and the wife never did. We do have a total blast at sporting clays, it is about as close as you can get IMHO without all the walking, and that is the part that is real hard on me. Just ride to the next spot on the golf cart out bang bang and on to the next. It is such fun.

But the costs of the shells was killing me. I blew through my stash of 16, in two weeks. First time she took me I shot a 16g A5, and I really had a ball. Not really the "right" tool for the job, but this is the guy that took a different rifle to each service rifle match I shoot. The fun is in shooting something different for me. And I like the idea of people thinking I have a screw loose somewhere.....likely one of the screws that is holding my body together. Liked it so much I searched high and low for an A5 20. I have not taken it to the club yet but played with it out back. The cheapest shells I have found are the wally world special and they come in at roughly .75 per bang. They do go bang, but they are not anything like the "good" stuff I used on the 16 or the 1100 20. You do get more for your more money, on the fence if that much more is worth it, I don't think it is so figured I would roll my own.

I have "some" universal and unique, but not a lot. Need to hunt up some more.

Thing that gets me is the data, the pic I posted up is it, those three powders, one does not even exist anymore. This is the thing that has also hit me, for 20 and the hull I have it is these three. Not what I am use to in the metallic world. In this day and age where stuff just does not exist, really difficult.

Suppose to rain this weekend and turn off cold, I think I will load up 20 and see how things go....it will be fun to pattern them against the super cheapo's I have been using