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Shoulder Bump Question

jlorensen

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 9, 2020
130
135
Kansas City
I've been reading a lot about shoulder bump lately, and am realizing too much bump can cut into the life of the brass, and potentially cause a safety issue. I don't reload to the extent that many of you do, however, I have reloaded for several different cartridges over the last 30 yrs or so.......my question is this.......I've always set up my FL sizing die per the instructions in the box and have never actually determined how much I'm actually bumping the shoulders. Would it be in my best interest to purchase the measuring tools to see where I'm at?

I haven't had any issues thus far, but figure it's worth asking the question.
 
I've been reading a lot about shoulder bump lately, and am realizing too much bump can cut into the life of the brass, and potentially cause a safety issue. I don't reload to the extent that many of you do, however, I have reloaded for several different cartridges over the last 30 yrs or so.......my question is this.......I've always set up my FL sizing die per the instructions in the box and have never actually determined how much I'm actually bumping the shoulders. Would it be in my best interest to purchase the measuring tools to see where I'm at?

I haven't had any issues thus far, but figure it's worth asking the question.
I'm not all that experienced with metallic reloading but I do measure bump back on fired brass. Measure fired brass (fired in same chamber, right) and then bump back to whatever relative point you want. .002-.003 from fired measurment is my target.

I use this and its easy.


Many people also like this one:


Hope this was somewhat helpful.
 
ELFSTER 1234 Has a 4 part series on reloading you should probably watch that i don't do everything the same but i dont have everything he has. Very intelligently put together. Its somewhere in the reloading threads. He goes into that in good detail.
 
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If you got the time id suggest watching this video from our very own Primal Rights. He goes into great depth about sizing and bumping shoulders and its importance.
 
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I'm not all that experienced with metallic reloading but I do measure bump back on fired brass. Measure fired brass (fired in same chamber, right) and then bump back to whatever relative point you want. .002-.003 from fired measurment is my target.

I use this and its easy.

Whidden also makes a comparator for $20.00 each. They look well made.

I have sets of the Sinclair and the Hornady comparators. If I was doing it all over again, I'd probably get the Whidden. The only plus to the Other sets is, they will also take the inserts for bullet ogive measurements.


I often use 4 inserts, .330,375,400 and 420 for all of the different rifle calibers I have.
 
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I use a fired pistol case to get an idea of shoulder position. For cartridges like the 308 or Creedmoor family a 40 S&W or 10mm Auto case works perfectly. Just place the open part of the pistol case onto the rifle case shoulder and measure between case heads.
 
Here is another approach to this issue. This method is not for everyone, it is fussy and you have to disassemble your bolt. The primary advantages:
  • it works without measurement tools or if your battery dies.
  • it is cheap
  • you don't have to reset your tooling (press and die) every time you reload.
  • it is easy to make controllable changes to your brass length
I assume that you have a 7/8x14 press and full length sizing die. Further that you installed the die into the press with a lock ring that you do not move - in other words, in order to use the die, you just screw it down into the press until the lock ring is tight against the press. This technique only works if fired brass is longer than unfired brass - all of my bottleneck rifle brass is like that.

Open the Brownells web site and search for this part number 749-001-325WS

These are shims that you can insert under the lock ring. A set costs about $15. I use mine like this:
  • Remove the firing pin and ejector pin from my bolt - I have an empty bolt body.
  • put a 10-thou shim under the lock ring and screw the FL die into the press
  • lube a piece of fired brass and size it.
  • Insert the brass into the chamber and try to close the bolt. In my case, that brass will be too long, the bolt won't close.
  • Replace the 10-thou shim with 9-thou shim, repeat with a new piece of brass
  • continue reducing shim thickness until the bolt "almost but not quite" closes with no finger pressure.
That piece of brass and die+shim setting is the length of my chamber. If I want another 2-thou, reduce the shims by 2-thou and size away. Note your shims, the next time you load for this gun all you have to do is select the right shims and screw the die into the press.

I use a new piece of brass because reusing the same piece of brass doesn't give me repeatable results. I torque the die into the press - I use 70 inch pounds, I should probably use more but 70 works for me. When sizing, use plenty of lube - again repeatable results. When sizing, lower the press handle and leave it there for 5 or more seconds before raising it - again repeatable results. I have to remove both the firing pin and ejector in order to get consistent results - YMMV. I use a die with a neck button. If your die doesn't sufficiently reduce the neck all the way to the shoulder, no amount of shoulder bump will allow the bolt handle to close without pressure. If you shoot different headstamps, you should check the shim settings for each one.

If you use measurement tools (many are talked about above, I have four different tools), you can get the right settings without disassembling your bolt and you can check you brass without using the gun. The only measurement tool I have used that gives me repeatable results is the RCBS Precision Mic and I sometimes struggle with it - YMMV.

This technique works with any brass or chamber. I think it also works with a semi-auto - I suspect that disassembling the bolt may be harder. If you have two 308s, you can have two different shim settings without changing the lock ring. Periodically check the lock ring, if it gets loose you have to recalibrate.
 
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Here is another approach to this issue. This method is not for everyone, it is fussy and you have to disassemble your bolt. The primary advantages:
  • it works without measurement tools or if your battery dies.
  • it is cheap
  • you don't have to reset your tooling (press and die) every time you reload.
  • it is easy to make controllable changes to your brass length
I assume that you have a 7/8x14 press and full length sizing die. Further that you installed the die into the press with a lock ring that you do not move - in other words, in order to use the die, you just screw it down into the press until the lock ring is tight against the press. This technique only works if fired brass is longer than unfired brass - all of my bottleneck rifle brass is like that.

Open the Brownells web site and search for this part number 749-001-325WS

These are shims that you can insert under the lock ring. A set costs about $15. I use mine like this:
  • Remove the firing pin and ejector pin from my bolt - I have an empty bolt body.
  • put a 10-thou shim under the lock ring and screw the FL die into the press
  • lube a piece of fired brass and size it.
  • Insert the brass into the chamber and try to close the bolt. In my case, that brass will be too long, the bolt won't close.
  • Replace the 10-thou shim with 9-thou shim, repeat with a new piece of brass
  • continue reducing shim thickness until the bolt "almost but not quite" closes with no finger pressure.
That piece of brass and die+shim setting is the length of my chamber. If I want another 2-thou, reduce the shims by 2-thou and size away. Note your shims, the next time you load for this gun all you have to do is select the right shims and screw the die into the press.

I use a new piece of brass because reusing the same piece of brass doesn't give me repeatable results. I torque the die into the press - I use 70 inch pounds, I should probably use more but 70 works for me. When sizing, use plenty of lube - again repeatable results. When sizing, lower the press handle and leave it there for 5 or more seconds before raising it - again repeatable results. I have to remove both the firing pin and ejector in order to get consistent results - YMMV. I use a die with a neck button. If your die doesn't sufficiently reduce the neck all the way to the shoulder, no amount of shoulder bump will allow the bolt handle to close without pressure. If you shoot different headstamps, you should check the shim settings for each one.

If you use measurement tools (many are talked about above, I have four different tools), you can get the right settings without disassembling your bolt and you can check you brass without using the gun. The only measurement tool I have used that gives me repeatable results is the RCBS Precision Mic and I sometimes struggle with it - YMMV.

This technique works with any brass or chamber. I think it also works with a semi-auto - I suspect that disassembling the bolt may be harder. If you have two 308s, you can have two different shim settings without changing the lock ring. Periodically check the lock ring, if it gets loose you have to recalibrate.
Great info....I really appreciate it!
 
If you really want rock solid consistency with shoulder bumping, the bottom of your sizing die must make contact with the top of your shell holder for a solid stopping point. I use the Redding competition shell holder set that has shell holders that are .002", .004", .006", .008", and .010" taller on their top surface that contacts the bottom of the die. These will let you bump your shoulders very accurately regardless of case lube variations and press frame flex.

Take a piece of brass that had a little heavy bolt lift and start sizing with the +.010" shell holder. Chamber your brass afterwards to see if the bolt lift got easier. If not, proceed .002" at a time with the shell holder set until you can close your bolt with no drag. Make a note of which shell holder you settled on for that die and rifle that the brass was shot from.
 
I use a fired pistol case to get an idea of shoulder position. For cartridges like the 308 or Creedmoor family a 40 S&W or 10mm Auto case works perfectly. Just place the open part of the pistol case onto the rifle case shoulder and measure between case heads.

Long before Hornady created their comparator tools, people were using brass pistol cases to do this exact thing.
Done correctly, it's just as accurate and repeatable as the specialty tools.
It does take more care and effort to get the proper measurement.
Just remember to remove the fired primer from the pistol case.
 
Here is another approach to this issue. This method is not for everyone, it is fussy and you have to disassemble your bolt. The primary advantages:
  • it works without measurement tools or if your battery dies.
  • it is cheap
  • you don't have to reset your tooling (press and die) every time you reload.
  • it is easy to make controllable changes to your brass length
I assume that you have a 7/8x14 press and full length sizing die. Further that you installed the die into the press with a lock ring that you do not move - in other words, in order to use the die, you just screw it down into the press until the lock ring is tight against the press. This technique only works if fired brass is longer than unfired brass - all of my bottleneck rifle brass is like that.

Open the Brownells web site and search for this part number 749-001-325WS

These are shims that you can insert under the lock ring. A set costs about $15. I use mine like this:
  • Remove the firing pin and ejector pin from my bolt - I have an empty bolt body.
  • put a 10-thou shim under the lock ring and screw the FL die into the press
  • lube a piece of fired brass and size it.
  • Insert the brass into the chamber and try to close the bolt. In my case, that brass will be too long, the bolt won't close.
  • Replace the 10-thou shim with 9-thou shim, repeat with a new piece of brass
  • continue reducing shim thickness until the bolt "almost but not quite" closes with no finger pressure.
That piece of brass and die+shim setting is the length of my chamber. If I want another 2-thou, reduce the shims by 2-thou and size away. Note your shims, the next time you load for this gun all you have to do is select the right shims and screw the die into the press.

I use a new piece of brass because reusing the same piece of brass doesn't give me repeatable results. I torque the die into the press - I use 70 inch pounds, I should probably use more but 70 works for me. When sizing, use plenty of lube - again repeatable results. When sizing, lower the press handle and leave it there for 5 or more seconds before raising it - again repeatable results. I have to remove both the firing pin and ejector in order to get consistent results - YMMV. I use a die with a neck button. If your die doesn't sufficiently reduce the neck all the way to the shoulder, no amount of shoulder bump will allow the bolt handle to close without pressure. If you shoot different headstamps, you should check the shim settings for each one.

If you use measurement tools (many are talked about above, I have four different tools), you can get the right settings without disassembling your bolt and you can check you brass without using the gun. The only measurement tool I have used that gives me repeatable results is the RCBS Precision Mic and I sometimes struggle with it - YMMV.

This technique works with any brass or chamber. I think it also works with a semi-auto - I suspect that disassembling the bolt may be harder. If you have two 308s, you can have two different shim settings without changing the lock ring. Periodically check the lock ring, if it gets loose you have to recalibrate.

^^^^
That's the way I was taught to do it a few decades ago.
 
If you really want rock solid consistency with shoulder bumping, the bottom of your sizing die must make contact with the top of your shell holder for a solid stopping point. I use the Redding competition shell holder set that has shell holders that are .002", .004", .006", .008", and .010" taller on their top surface that contacts the bottom of the die. These will let you bump your shoulders very accurately regardless of case lube variations and press frame flex.

Take a piece of brass that had a little heavy bolt lift and start sizing with the +.010" shell holder. Chamber your brass afterwards to see if the bolt lift got easier. If not, proceed .002" at a time with the shell holder set until you can close your bolt with no drag. Make a note of which shell holder you settled on for that die and rifle that the brass was shot from.
i have the Redding competition shell holder set plus the hornady comparitor and both work great. I like the hornady for ogave measurements it gives me also and that's the measurement i use to set my dies. Don't think i could have spent 3x as much for another brand and gotten any better results.
 
If you really want rock solid consistency with shoulder bumping, the bottom of your sizing die must make contact with the top of your shell holder for a solid stopping point. I use the Redding competition shell holder set that has shell holders that are .002", .004", .006", .008", and .010" taller on their top surface that contacts the bottom of the die. These will let you bump your shoulders very accurately regardless of case lube variations and press frame flex.

Take a piece of brass that had a little heavy bolt lift and start sizing with the +.010" shell holder. Chamber your brass afterwards to see if the bolt lift got easier. If not, proceed .002" at a time with the shell holder set until you can close your bolt with no drag. Make a note of which shell holder you settled on for that die and rifle that the brass was shot from.
I have rock solid consistency to less than half a thou confirmed on a dial test indicator, and none of my dies touch the shell holder. In fact, the only time I couldn’t consistently size brass was with a die that touched the shell holder.
 
i got all over the place my shoulder bump... from -.005 to -.001... can't get consitency from my RCBS Summit press and Redding FL bushing die...

if I got more lube it's notable, if this and that... maybe I should buy Redding Competition SH set and always have same contact of shell holder and my die...
 
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i got all over the place my shoulder bump... from -.005 to -.001... can't get consitency from my RCBS Summit press and Redding FL bushing die...

if I got more lube it's notable, if this and that... maybe I should buy Redding Competition SH set and always have same contact of shell holder and my die...
Anneal properly.
 
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The how doesn't matter. Only the result.
By the way, did you ever figure out who manufactures ZCO's scopes for them? lol
 
Anneal properly.
I agree on annealing. Work-hardened brass does not consistently deform in the sizing die. I use a torch-type annealer - it works just fine.

Also, give this a try. Lube your case, put it into the shellholder, lower the press handle all the way to size the brass. Wait 5 seconds. Raise the handle a little - you are trying to lower the ram a quarter or half inch. Lower the handle again - that is, size it again. Raise the handle. I don't clearly understand what is happening here but it seems to work pretty well for work-hardened brass.
 
If you really want rock solid consistency with shoulder bumping, the bottom of your sizing die must make contact with the top of your shell holder for a solid stopping point. I use the Redding competition shell holder set that has shell holders that are .002", .004", .006", .008", and .010" taller on their top surface that contacts the bottom of the die. These will let you bump your shoulders very accurately regardless of case lube variations and press frame flex.

Take a piece of brass that had a little heavy bolt lift and start sizing with the +.010" shell holder. Chamber your brass afterwards to see if the bolt lift got easier. If not, proceed .002" at a time with the shell holder set until you can close your bolt with no drag. Make a note of which shell holder you settled on for that die and rifle that the brass was shot from.
I have a set of the Redding shellholders. For me, they worked with "soft-ish" brass (new or once-fired) but not with hard brass. I did not get consistent case lengths until I annealed my cases.

I think the problem is, when hard contact is made between the die and the shell holder, no additional sizing force can be applied. Any additional force that applied to the press handle just deforms the press and doesn't work the brass.
 
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If you really want rock solid consistency with shoulder bumping, the bottom of your sizing die must make contact with the top of your shell holder for a solid stopping point. I use the Redding competition shell holder set that has shell holders that are .002", .004", .006", .008", and .010" taller on their top surface that contacts the bottom of the die. These will let you bump your shoulders very accurately regardless of case lube variations and press frame flex.

Take a piece of brass that had a little heavy bolt lift and start sizing with the +.010" shell holder. Chamber your brass afterwards to see if the bolt lift got easier. If not, proceed .002" at a time with the shell holder set until you can close your bolt with no drag. Make a note of which shell holder you settled on for that die and rifle that the brass was shot from.
Exactly, the vid below is what I used.

One thing I learned the hard way, is to check the setback each sizing. Mine changed abruptly and I never ascertained exactly why. I simply noticed pre-case-separation and realized the change. Not sure if it was a change in spring-back after annealing or simply forgetting to use the Redding competition shell holder, that I spec-ed.



 
I have rock solid consistency to less than half a thou confirmed on a dial test indicator, and none of my dies touch the shell holder. In fact, the only time I couldn’t consistently size brass was with a die that touched the shell holder.
Which press do you use for this consistency? Don't ever sell it because it is likely one of a kind that doesn't flex at all.
 
Which press do you use for this consistency? Don't ever sell it because it is likely one of a kind that doesn't flex at all.

I’ve use rockchucker, co-ax, and now a zero press.

I’ve never required the die to touch the shell holder for consistency. Sometimes it touches and sometimes it doesn’t. But that’s just dependent on the chamber and brass.

I’m anxiously awaiting area419’s take on shims for shell holders. However that’s only for ease of adjustment and not for consistency.
 
Which press do you use for this consistency? Don't ever sell it because it is likely one of a kind that doesn't flex at all.
Rockchucker.
If your brass is consistent going in the die, it’s consistent coming out, and that comes from annealing properly. Not a magic shell holder that touches your die.
 
Last edited:
If you really want rock solid consistency with shoulder bumping, the bottom of your sizing die must make contact with the top of your shell holder for a solid stopping point. I use the Redding competition shell holder set that has shell holders that are .002", .004", .006", .008", and .010" taller on their top surface that contacts the bottom of the die. These will let you bump your shoulders very accurately regardless of case lube variations and press frame flex.

Take a piece of brass that had a little heavy bolt lift and start sizing with the +.010" shell holder. Chamber your brass afterwards to see if the bolt lift got easier. If not, proceed .002" at a time with the shell holder set until you can close your bolt with no drag. Make a note of which shell holder you settled on for that die and rifle that the brass was shot from.
Agree 100%. Only thing I would add is that the best way to measure is with Wilson case gauges and some sort of drop micrometer. I was using theirs, but today I just got another in the mail from PMA tool that looks pretty darn promising.
 
Get the Hornady system. You can measure base to ogive and shoulder set back.
Comparator arrived yesterday.....I went with Hornady since I already had their base/ogive tools. I'd convinced myself I'd see a huge bump, but the first case showed .002". I then ran averages across 4 different cartridges and all measurements landed between .0015" and .0025"...... seems like this is right about where I should be.

I appreciate all the comments!
 
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Here is another approach to this issue. This method is not for everyone, it is fussy and you have to disassemble your bolt. The primary advantages:
  • it works without measurement tools or if your battery dies.
  • it is cheap
  • you don't have to reset your tooling (press and die) every time you reload.
  • it is easy to make controllable changes to your brass length
I assume that you have a 7/8x14 press and full length sizing die. Further that you installed the die into the press with a lock ring that you do not move - in other words, in order to use the die, you just screw it down into the press until the lock ring is tight against the press. This technique only works if fired brass is longer than unfired brass - all of my bottleneck rifle brass is like that.

Open the Brownells web site and search for this part number 749-001-325WS

These are shims that you can insert under the lock ring. A set costs about $15. I use mine like this:
  • Remove the firing pin and ejector pin from my bolt - I have an empty bolt body.
  • put a 10-thou shim under the lock ring and screw the FL die into the press
  • lube a piece of fired brass and size it.
  • Insert the brass into the chamber and try to close the bolt. In my case, that brass will be too long, the bolt won't close.
  • Replace the 10-thou shim with 9-thou shim, repeat with a new piece of brass
  • continue reducing shim thickness until the bolt "almost but not quite" closes with no finger pressure.
That piece of brass and die+shim setting is the length of my chamber. If I want another 2-thou, reduce the shims by 2-thou and size away. Note your shims, the next time you load for this gun all you have to do is select the right shims and screw the die into the press.

I use a new piece of brass because reusing the same piece of brass doesn't give me repeatable results. I torque the die into the press - I use 70 inch pounds, I should probably use more but 70 works for me. When sizing, use plenty of lube - again repeatable results. When sizing, lower the press handle and leave it there for 5 or more seconds before raising it - again repeatable results. I have to remove both the firing pin and ejector in order to get consistent results - YMMV. I use a die with a neck button. If your die doesn't sufficiently reduce the neck all the way to the shoulder, no amount of shoulder bump will allow the bolt handle to close without pressure. If you shoot different headstamps, you should check the shim settings for each one.

If you use measurement tools (many are talked about above, I have four different tools), you can get the right settings without disassembling your bolt and you can check you brass without using the gun. The only measurement tool I have used that gives me repeatable results is the RCBS Precision Mic and I sometimes struggle with it - YMMV.

This technique works with any brass or chamber. I think it also works with a semi-auto - I suspect that disassembling the bolt may be harder. If you have two 308s, you can have two different shim settings without changing the lock ring. Periodically check the lock ring, if it gets loose you have to recalibrate.
I guess I just don't get how this is easier than measuring the shoulder of a fired case, deducting a few thousandths, and sizing to that shoulder bump to get a consistent chamber fit. I mean ... after firing you've gotta run the case through a sizing die anyway, so why not "size and bump" as you cycle through whatever you're case-prepping. I've seen a few recent videos with the "disassemble your bolt" and "size using the chamber" ... but like I said ... I just don't get how this is easier or faster. But that's just me ...
 
I guess I just don't get how this is easier than measuring the shoulder of a fired case, deducting a few thousandths, and sizing to that shoulder bump to get a consistent chamber fit. I mean ... after firing you've gotta run the case through a sizing die anyway, so why not "size and bump" as you cycle through whatever you're case-prepping. I've seen a few recent videos with the "disassemble your bolt" and "size using the chamber" ... but like I said ... I just don't get how this is easier or faster. But that's just me ...
Its not. Using a fired case as the basis for your sizing die’s set up works for like 99.9% of the time.

Alternatively, if you have a set of head space gauges you can zero the caliper on the longest gauge that chambers cleanly. Then size until a piece of brass is .002” shorter (.004-.005 for semiautos).

Both methods work faster.
 
One big thing I was doing incorrectly for a long time was assuming that after one firing I had a fired case that was sized to my chamber. From there I would measure and bump .002”. After some research and actually disassembling my bolt I found out first hand that that my fired brass was actually still not to chamber dimensions therefore I was bumping a lot more than .002 and overworking my brass.

Although I had no adverse affects yet I bet after multiple more firings I’d see some reduced life in my brass.

Disassembling the bolt doesn’t take that long and it allows me to actually feel what is going on versus guessing.
 
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One big thing I was doing incorrectly for a long time was assuming that after one firing I had a fired case that was sized to my chamber. From there I would measure and bump .002”. After some research and actually disassembling my bolt I found out first hand that that my fired brass was actually still not to chamber dimensions therefore I was bumping a lot more than .002 and overworking my brass.

Although I had no adverse affects yet I bet after multiple more firings I’d see some reduced life in my brass.

Disassembling the bolt doesn’t take that long and it allows me to actually feel what is going on versus guessing.
This is one of the arguments for the Redding comp shellholders. If you run into this, you just use a different shellholder.
 
This is one of the arguments for the Redding comp shellholders. If you run into this, you just use a different shellholder.
Run into what? I can see using the comp shellholder when using one die for multiple chambers therefore you can record each one and easily change, but I’m using one die for one specific chamber so don’t see the need.

Once I get a correct measurement I slowly work die down until I get bump and it’s set.

My point was to bring up the fact that although most understand the .002” bump, if your not fully grown to chamber realistically can be bumping alot farther.

Wether that matters to the individual is up to them.
 
Run into what? I can see using the comp shellholder when using one die for multiple chambers therefore you can record each one and easily change, but I’m using one die for one specific chamber so don’t see the need.

Once I get a correct measurement I slowly work die down until I get bump and it’s set.

My point was to bring up the fact that although most understand the .002” bump, if your not fully grown to chamber realistically can be bumping alot farther.

Wether that matters to the individual is up to them.
Run into as in if you set up your sizing die after one firing, and it turns out you need to bump .002 less than you thought because your case hadn't fully fireformed, if you were using a .004 shellholder, let's say, you can switch to a .006 and you are set to go. It isn't a big deal, but it is another advantage, of many, for setting up sizing that way.
 
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No need to bottom out on the shell holder for, “consistency”.
 
Different dies, different brass, different reamers, different chambers, different shell holders.
I’ve actually cut shell holders so that they didn’t touch the base of the die I was using.
 
than you have different dies. because with dies which I use now, if the die isnt touching shellholder, I cant size my brass enough.
only die that it didnt required touching my shellhoder was redding body die.

Imagine that. Different dies….
 
that's the case.

is consistency better after you cut shellhoder? or you didnt measure it before?
I couldn’t actually get the amount of bump I needed. It was never a consistency issue. Like I said, my consistency is spot on to less than .0005”.
 
ELFSTER 1234 Has a 4 part series on reloading you should probably watch that i don't do everything the same but i dont have everything he has. Very intelligently put together. Its somewhere in the reloading threads. He goes into that in good detail.

@Cr1775 thanks!

here you go!
Updated video series!
New to reloading!? Start to finish VIDEO series! Enjoy!

Part1

Part2

Part3

Part4

Part5