Shoulder bumping conflict

[jeffpatton00]

I'm puzzled about something I've run into loading for my 224 Valkyrie semi-auto, when I screw the neck bushing FL die down only enough to bump the fired case shoulders down by .003" - .004", I'm getting 2 problems: 1) the neck is only being sized by about 40%, and 2) the cases bases are not being resized and the cases won't fit into the chamber. I'm puzzled because neck bumping is a common reloading task, but I'm not seeing how to only bump by the desired amount, while still fully sizing the neck and sufficiently sizing the case to fit in the chamber. It strikes me that since so many reloaders bump shoulders there must be a common solution for my problem(s), but I'm not seeing it.

The geometry inside the neck bushing FL die is fixed - i.e., the distance from the die's shoulder to the neck bushing is fixed, so if I only want to bump the shoulder a bit, I'm stuck with sizing the neck by a similar amount. And, if I don't want to bump the shoulder all the way back to SAAMI specs to minimize working the case too much, the base isn't going to get resized. What am I missing? I suppose I could have the die's bushing receptacle cut deeper so that when the shoulder is bumped by the desired amount, the neck will have been fully sized, but I've never heard of that being done so there must be a simpler approach, I'm just not seeing it.

FYI, I want to resize the neck via the bushing to .004" smaller than the caliber, then use a mandrel to upsize the neck to just .0015" - 002" smaller than caliber for consistent neck tension. Some may argue against this process and I'd be interested in your thoughts, but my major question is how to accomplish my 3 goals: 1) bump the shoulder by the desired amount, 2) fully size the neck, and 3) resize the case base sufficiently to fit in the rifle's chamber. What are your thoughts on this? thx
Jeff

 

[Mike Casselton]

What dies are you using?

As far as the neck is concerned:
It sounds like you don't have the stem that holds the bushing in place screwed down far enough.
It should be all the way down, then backed up about 1/4 of a turn.

As far as the base/body is concerned: you probably need a small base die to size it down properly.

 

[spife7980]

You need to adjust the plug on top of the die to push the bushing down further in order to size more of the neck. You control that with how you set up the die.

With a cleaned die I will screw it down until the bushing bottoms out and then back it out juuust enough so that when I shake the die I can feel the bushing rattle or move a wee bit, that means its floating and not constricted somewhere off center. Then lock down the jam nut to hold it in place there. After a number of cases the lube will build up and the bushing wont rattle anymore but I dont worry about that. Clean it when you set it up and you wont have issues with mechanical lock out of place even when its not rattling.

 

[jeffpatton00]

What dies are you using?

As far as the neck is concerned:
It sounds like you don't have the stem that holds the bushing in place screwed down far enough.
It should be all the way down, then backed up about 1/4 of a turn.

As far as the base/body is concerned: you probably need a small base die to size it down properly.

I'm using a Redding neck bushing FL die, not sure of the part number, but it may not be small base. However, I do screw the stem all the way down and don't back it off, but if I shake the die I can hear the bushing rattle so the die must be designed so the bushing is free-floating even when the stem is fully screwed down. So, I can't size the neck more fully while only bumping the shoulder back a bit, and I'm very curious what approach others follow.

 

[jeffpatton00]

You need to adjust the plug on top of the die to push the bushing down further in order to size more of the neck. You control that with how you set up the die.

With a cleaned die I will screw it down until the bushing bottoms out and then back it out juuust enough so that when I shake the die I can feel the bushing rattle or move a wee bit, that means its floating and not constricted somewhere off center. Then lock down the jam nut to hold it in place there. After a number of cases the lube will build up and the bushing wont rattle anymore but I dont worry about that. Clean it when you set it up and you wont have issues with mechanical lock out of place even when its not rattling.

Both Mike & Spife suggest screwing the bushing down further, so you guys must not be encountering the same problems I'm seeing - that makes me wonder if the Redding die is the problem since I have the bushings screwed all the way down, (although it's still free-floating). What brand/model of dies are you fellows using?

 

[ShtrRdy]

Sure sounds like something isn't right with the bushing plug.

Does your die have a micrometer adjust top?

I like to use Redding dies.

 

[jeffpatton00]

Sure sounds like something isn't right with the bushing plug.

Does your die have a micrometer adjust top?

I like to use Redding dies.

No, it's not micrometer adjustable, I have to screw the die itself down to make the adjustment, then lock in using the locking ring. That does work to get me the necessary shoulder bump, but the neck and the base are being insufficiently resized. I've asked the gunsmith who built this upper if he could build a die using the reamer he used for the chamber but haven't heard back yet if he thinks he can do this for me.

 

[Steel head]

You need to adjust the plug on top of the die to push the bushing down further in order to size more of the neck. You control that with how you set up the die.

With a cleaned die I will screw it down until the bushing bottoms out and then back it out juuust enough so that when I shake the die I can feel the bushing rattle or move a wee bit, that means its floating and not constricted somewhere off center. Then lock down the jam nut to hold it in place there. After a number of cases the lube will build up and the bushing wont rattle anymore but I dont worry about that. Clean it when you set it up and you wont have issues with mechanical lock out of place even when its not rattling.

 

[918v]

Sounds like the bushing plug threads are rough and feel like the plug bottomed out when it hasn’t.

 

[spife7980]

Sounds like the bushing plug threads are rough and feel like the plug bottomed out when it hasn’t.

Def possibility.


@jeffpatton00 Just to be 100% clear, its a redding die, you are using a redding bushing? Im pretty sure most bushings play together and interchange nicely but I think hornady and maybe another dont.

Stick a toothpick or pin or something up into the die and see how much you can actually move the bushing up, it should be pretty hard to notice. If you see you have an 1/8th of wiggle room then you found the culprit if youre certain that it cant screw in any further.
Take the bushing out and ensure that the plug goes all the way in without the bushing installed to ensure that the bushing is what was impeding your bushing plug before.

 

[jeffpatton00]

Def possibility.


@jeffpatton00 Just to be 100% clear, its a redding die, you are using a redding bushing? Im pretty sure most bushings play together and interchange nicely but I think hornady and maybe another dont.

Stick a toothpick or pin or something up into the die and see how much you can actually move the bushing up, it should be pretty hard to notice. If you see you have an 1/8th of wiggle room then you found the culprit if youre certain that it cant screw in any further.
Take the bushing out and ensure that the plug goes all the way in without the bushing installed to ensure that the bushing is what was impeding your bushing plug before.

Great suggestion, I'll check this out.

 

[B y r o n]

As has been pointed out, what you have described isn't possible with the die properly setup. As you can see in this cutaway view, the neck sizing bushing is right at the junction with the shoulder.

I believe that any shoulder bump you may be seeing is actually just compression as the neck bushing starts to size the neck. The reason the base of the case isn't sized enough to chamber is the die body needs to travel further down the case, probably by the length of the neck that has not been sized.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Take the stem and the bushing completely out and size a case. Leave the case in the die with the ram all the way up.
Look into the top of the die and verify the entire neck protrudes into the space that should be occupied by the bushing.

If it doesn't, then you either don't have the die screwed down far enough, or your die is incorrect.

How much space do you have between the shell holder and the bottom of the die?
They should almost touch or even be touching.

 

[RldrNewby]

I think I know what may be going on. I’ve read where some ppl prefer to remove the decapping stem altogether so the resizing mandrel is no longer in play because they prefer to bushing size to a specific diameter, & in a separate set up entirely, use a specific diameter expanding mandrel to set the inside neck diameter where they want it. In a Redding Type-S Bushing Die, if you remove the decapping/mandrel stem, you have to remember to put the black lock nut that locks the stem in place back into the top of your Plug so that it sits on top of your bushing. It has to be there as a spacer so when the plug is screwed all the way in, it allows the plug to make contact with the bushing. Hopefully that helps. Good luck to you!

 

[jeffpatton00]

The die is screwed as far down as possible, giving a slight cam-over. It should be noted that this won't work for my purposes because it sets the shoulder back too far, but I've done this for the purpose of diagnosing the problem. I then screwed the stem above the bushing all the way down till it stops. I then ran the press up fully and left it there, removed the bushing stem, and took some pics of the case neck inside the bushing.

In Still 1, at the bottom of the photo you'll see what is actually the top edge of the neck sizing bushing. In Still 2, at the top of the photo you'll see just the beginning of the brass case mouth, and in Still 3 you see more of the case. The case neck clearly does not extend to the top of the bushing, even when the die is screwed as far in as possible.

Here are some measurements I took with Starline cases - new, unfired; once-fired, and after sizing the once-fired. Note that the 58% or so of the neck that was sized is up from the 45% that was sized when the die was screwed down enough to just bump the shoulder back by my desired .003" - .004". All measurements are in thousandths of inches.

	Unfired Cases	Once-fired	After sizing
Shoulder	1.2536	1.2583	1.252
Base dia.	0.417	0.42	0.417
Neck size length	n/a	n/a	0.145	out of .250 neck length	58%
Case length	1.59	1.5855	1.519
Fit in chamber?	Yes	Sort of*	Yes
* once-fired cases will seat with some pressure, but ejection is sticky

I took some measurements and calculated that I may have .055" - .060" of free-play in the bushing, even when the bushing stem is screwed down tightly. I may make a shim to take some of that slack out and re-size another case to see what I get, but that shouldn't be the answer because if .105" of the neck is still remaining unsized, even when everything is screwed down tightly, even taking up all the free-play won't get me there. So, something else is going on.

So, any ideas what the problem might be? I appreciate your ideas.
Jeff

 

[Hudsflywater]

Have you measured your fired brass for head space? Could be that you are bumping your shoulder back 2 thou, but if your chamber is out of SAAMI spec, the die wants to get it back within spec or very close, so if your fired brass is longer than SAAMI, you might have to move it back to SAAMI to get the rest of the brass sized??

 

[RldrNewby]

The die is screwed as far down as possible, giving a slight cam-over. It should be noted that this won't work for my purposes because it sets the shoulder back too far, but I've done this for the purpose of diagnosing the problem. I then screwed the stem above the bushing all the way down till it stops. I then ran the press up fully and left it there, removed the bushing stem, and took some pics of the case neck inside the bushing.

In Still 1, at the bottom of the photo you'll see what is actually the top edge of the neck sizing bushing. In Still 2, at the top of the photo you'll see just the beginning of the brass case mouth, and in Still 3 you see more of the case. The case neck clearly does not extend to the top of the bushing, even when the die is screwed as far in as possible.

Here are some measurements I took with Starline cases - new, unfired; once-fired, and after sizing the once-fired. Note that the 58% or so of the neck that was sized is up from the 45% that was sized when the die was screwed down enough to just bump the shoulder back by my desired .003" - .004". All measurements are in thousandths of inches.

	Unfired Cases	Once-fired	After sizing
Shoulder	1.2536	1.2583	1.252
Base dia.	0.417	0.42	0.417
Neck size length	n/a	n/a	0.145	out of .250 neck length	58%
Case length	1.59	1.5855	1.519
Fit in chamber?	Yes	Sort of*	Yes
* once-fired cases will seat with some pressure, but ejection is sticky

I took some measurements and calculated that I may have .055" - .060" of free-play in the bushing, even when the bushing stem is screwed down tightly. I may make a shim to take some of that slack out and re-size another case to see what I get, but that shouldn't be the answer because if .105" of the neck is still remaining unsized, even when everything is screwed down tightly, even taking up all the free-play won't get me there. So, something else is going on.

So, any ideas what the problem might be? I appreciate your ideas.
Jeff

Dang! Was hoping I had something for ya that would help, but now I’m at a loss. Very interesting issue. Do you have any other options on shell holders to try? Other than that, I’m out of ideas & don’t know what’s goin on If the case neck can’t get high enough into the die to interface with the bushing, there’s no way it bushing size the neck. Will try to keep up with this thread to see what the resolution ends up being. Good luck!

 

[RldrNewby]

Dang! Was hoping I had something for ya that would help, but now I’m at a loss. Very interesting issue. Do you have any other options on shell holders to try? Other than that, I’m out of ideas & don’t know what’s goin on If the case neck can’t get high enough into the die to interface with the bushing, there’s no way it bushing size the neck. Will try to keep up with this thread to see what the resolution ends up being. Good luck!

Edit: Thought of one last thing, but am slightly unclear on how your last test was initiated. I think if the decapping stem, which is adjustable on depth, is too far out from the initial get go, it can actually bottom out on the web of the case by the primer flash hole, which could feel to the hand like the case shoulders were touching the die body when screwing the die body down on the very first initial course adjustment. This could cause one to set the lock ring at the wrong initial starting depth.

I would try one last thing. 1.) Adjust the Decapping Stem as short as it can be adjusted, then don’t put the stem into the die at this point. 2.) Loosen the Die body lock ring & move it all the way up, & screw the die body in all the way until it touches the shell holder with the press arm fully raised. 3.) Lower the Pess Arm, & screw the Die body in an additional 1/2 turn. 4.) Place a fired case into the shell holder, and raise the press arm all the way up, & see if the case neck is higher now. 5.) Lower press arm 6.) Remove the decapping rod from the stem, drop the bushing in, drop the decapping rod lock washer in, then tighten stem all the way down, & back off the tiniest amount you can. 7.) Run the case thru, then look for sizing marks on the neck. These are what mine look like.

It only sizes mine in the middle of the necks.

 

[918v]

Edit: Thought of one last thing, but am slightly unclear on how your last test was initiated. I think if the decapping stem, which is adjustable on depth, is too far out from the initial get go, it can actually bottom out on the web of the case by the primer flash hole, which could feel to the hand like the case shoulders were touching the die body when screwing the die body down on the very first initial course adjustment. This could cause one to set the lock ring at the wrong initial starting depth.

I would try one last thing. 1.) Adjust the Decapping Stem as short as it can be adjusted, then don’t put the stem into the die at this point. 2.) Loosen the Die body lock ring & move it all the way up, & screw the die body in all the way until it touches the shell holder with the press arm fully raised. 3.) Lower the Pess Arm, & screw the Die body in an additional 1/2 turn. 4.) Place a fired case into the shell holder, and raise the press arm all the way up, & see if the case neck is higher now. 5.) Lower press arm 6.) Remove the decapping rod from the stem, drop the bushing in, drop the decapping rod lock washer in, then tighten stem all the way down, & back off the tiniest amount you can. 7.) Run the case thru, then look for sizing marks on the neck. These are what mine look like.
View attachment 7648255
View attachment 7648256
View attachment 7648257
View attachment 7648258

It only sizes mine in the middle of the necks.

looks like it sizes 3/4 of the neck

 

[RldrNewby]

looks like it sizes 3/4 of the neck

Agreed. Terrible initial guesstimate on my part, lol. The bushing appears to have slight bevels milled into the interior of the ends, I assume to assist with entry into the bushing, & also to allow for a little closer fitment to the shoulder without actually bumping it at the neck junction

 

[Mike Casselton]

The bushing is not designed to resize the entire neck.
It will only size 75-80% and then leave a ring above the shoulder untouched.

With a slight cam-over the die should set the shoulder back a couple thousands to maybe -006. Not much more.

If your shoulder is moving forward, then the die isn't touching it, the case is just being squeezed.

Imagine a partially filled balloon. When you squeeze it, part of it wants to move out away from your hand. This is what happens when the die shoulder isn't in a position to stop the flow of brass from going towards the neck/shoulder area. Because the die isn't screwed down far enough, brass will flow forward, filling that space and causing the base to shoulder length to grow.

Leave your bushing and decapping assembly out of the die.

Leaving them out just makes your bushing die into a body die.

Resize a few cases until you get the body and shoulder dimension correct.

Lock the lock ring.

Once that's correct, reinstall your bushing and decapping assembly and go to town on the rest of your brass.

 

[jeffpatton00]

Some final feedback on this issue. Gunsmith Joe Carlos in Driftwood PA, who built this upper, figured out the problem - when I removed the expander button and threaded shaft from the die (I prefer to decap in another way, and use an expander mandrel rather than the die's expander button), I also unfortunately removed the knurled spacer that sits inside the die above the expander button at the top of that threaded shaft. Replacing the shaft and spacer, I get .206" of the neck sized, up from the original .145", I'm bumping the shoulder back the desired .003 - .004", and sizing the case to the base. I suspected I'd done something stupid, but it sure took a lot of work and advice from everyone to figure it out. Thanks to everyone for your support on this, it was really bugging me.

 

[supercorndogs]

I think I know what may be going on. I’ve read where some ppl prefer to remove the decapping stem altogether so the resizing mandrel is no longer in play because they prefer to bushing size to a specific diameter, & in a separate set up entirely, use a specific diameter expanding mandrel to set the inside neck diameter where they want it. In a Redding Type-S Bushing Die, if you remove the decapping/mandrel stem, you have to remember to put the black lock nut that locks the stem in place back into the top of your Plug so that it sits on top of your bushing. It has to be there as a spacer so when the plug is screwed all the way in, it allows the plug to make contact with the bushing. Hopefully that helps. Good luck to you!
View attachment 7648150

Did he read this thread to figure out? Its funny how easy it is to miss a reply in a thread.