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Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

gstaylorg

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 24, 2010
1,865
14
San Diego, CA
I posted this report recently on the Sig Forum site. Sorry to Sniper's Hide members for the "sloppy seconds", but I was unaware of the existence of Sniper's Hide at the time. I guess the ghillie suits are working! In any case, it was suggested out to me that there might also be some interest in this report here.

I was attracted to the Sig 556 DMR primarily because I have two 556 pistols and I've been very pleased with the platform and performance. So I looked into the DMR a little further and a question arose almost immediately.

Because the 556 DMR has a 21" heavy barrel with a 1 in 10" twist, I was unsure whether it would effectively stabilize longer (heavier) loads. After finding a wide range of owner reports online stating that their DMRs would handle anywhere from 68 gr up to 77 gr loads, I decided to find out for myself what the new DMR shot the best. Based on the twist rate, my initial guess was that it would prefer loads in the mid to upper 60 gr range, but not the heavier stuff.

Sig556DMR.jpg


Weapon System: Sig 556 DMR, 21" heavy barrel with a 1 in 10" twist rate, aluminum Quadrail foregrip, Magpul PMAG 30 MAGLEVEL magazines

Optic: Nightforce NXS 3.5-15 x 50 (F2), Zero Stop, Mil-Radian turrets, MLR reticle (setting = 15X)

Optic Mount: LaRue Tactical SPR/M4 1.93" QD (LT-135)

Benchrest: Caldwell Lead Sled Solo with 25 lb. weight bag

The testing of various ammunition took 3 days to complete. Weather conditions were very similar each day (hot as crap, high humidity, little wind). I used 3 to 5 rounds to zero the weapon, then shot 3 groups of 5 rounds each at 100 yds, allowing a few minutes between groups to cool the barrel down. The weapon was cleaned between each ammo tested. As an internal control, I shot the Hornady 55 gr SP load each of the 3 days to ensure that the conditions (or my shooting) didn't vary widely between the different range trips. The maximum spread of each 5 shot group was measured (center to center), then the mean determined +/- standard deviation. Finally, I converted the values to MOA (divide by 1.0472) and rounded to the nearest two significant figures. The data at 100 yds are shown in Table I below.

TableIsmall.jpg


I should note that "flyers" (and there were a few) were all included in the spread measurements. Surprisingly, two of the best groupings were obtained using Black Hills and Federal 77 gr match ammo. Perhaps more suprising, most of the loads in the low to mid 60 gr range shot poorly. The Hornady 55 gr SP loads that were shot on each of the 3 days were very consistent between range trips, indicating that my shooting and/or conditions did not affect performance on different days. Also, the standard deviation for at least two thirds of the ammunition tested was less than 20% of the average spread, indicating reasonable consistency between groups. For those whom are not crazy about tabular data like myself, I have also shown the results in graphical form below (Figure 1).

DMRGraph-1.jpg

Figure 1

Images of the best single group, the best 77 gr single group and the worst single group are shown in Figure 2 below.

GroupImagessmall.jpg

Figure 2

Because 100 yds may not have been enough distance for the low twist rate to dramatically affect the stabilization of the 77 gr loads, I also shot the two best of these (Black Hills, Federal) at 200 and 300 yds. The results are shown in Table II below.

TableIIsmall.jpg


My conclusion from this test is that regardless of its slow twist rate, the 556 DMR is perfectly capable of stabilizing 77 gr loads out to 300 yds. Although the best average grouping I obtained was 0.9 MOA with the Black Hills 77 gr, I should point out that many of the groups of 5 shots had a "flyer" that markedly increased the maximum spacing for that group. If I had measured the best three shots from each group, I estimate that the accuracy would easily be in the 0.5 MOA range. This is most likely the fault of the shooter. In fact, two of the three groups of the Federal 77 gr at 300 yds had three shots that fell well under one inch. I suspect that in the hands of a more experienced marksman, the DMR is capable of well under 1.0 MOA accuracy. My overall take is that this is a pretty accurate weapon...capable of shooting 1.0 MOA in my hands, maybe a lot better with more practice as my shooting improves. I don't think I can safely say it is a nail driver at this point, but again, that is more likely my skill, rather than the limitations of the weapon. But best of all, it was a hell of a lot of fun doing the range test.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

nice report, very different
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

That's quite a write-up--just what I was looking for a few months ago before I bought the same rifle. I was really torn over whether to buy it because of the twist rate, like you mention, and because it's not truly "free floating". But, I found one for a price I couldn't pass up...

I have not fired anything heavier than 55gr from mine, and after a hundred rounds or so, I've had a few MOA groups at 100yd shooting from a bipod and rear bag.

Anyway, don't leave if you don't "feel the love" here with your SIG. The prevailing sentiment here seems to be that it's an overpriced AK and that you could do much better with an AR platform for less money.

Again, nice write-up and keep us posted.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

Not a fan of the rifle but I did enjoy reading your write up as well as the graphs you put up. Good info. Thanks and welcome.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

OP, maybe you could edit "Sig 556" from the thread title. This thread deserves to be seen by more folks here, but most won't even look with that in the title.

Did you do any kind of break-in with your rifle? Just curious because I didn't. I've pulled the boresnake through a couple of times. That's it.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

Cool. If it were me I'd run a cleaning rod with tight patch down the bore and check the twist rate myself. Otherwise, you have totally debunked the heavy bullet 223/twist rate grail we have been operating under for years.

Thanks for the diligence and report!
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

Good writeup, I really like the sig 556 the only thing keeping me from getting one is that I have too much invested into the AR platform.

I've shot 75 grainers out of a 1:9. It could be possible that they start to tumble earlier though as I only shot them a couple hundred yards. As far as twist rate goes you should be able to just look down the barrel, I know I can look down the barrel of a 1:9 20" and see a difference between that and a 1:7. I was really interested in that DMR rifle just because I shoot a lot of 52 grain match bullets and I thought it would make a great varmint/target rifle. Contrary to popular belief lighter bullets can go far - I've shot 52's and 55's out to 550? and they weren't keyholing - but the wind moves them around a LOT.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

Thanks to everyone for the replies! Basically, I joined Sniper's Hide because the best way to learn is from those that know a lot more than I do, and I'm sure that is true here in spades. I'm not so concerned if the Sig 556 platform isn't popular here. I posted the results and if even a few are interested, then I've made a contribution to the forum. If nothing else, I will likely learn a lot more about other platforms than I might elsewhere. It really boils down to the same thing as the old "Mac vs PC" debate (I'm a Mac user BTW). Both work, but everyone has their personal preference and there is no right or wrong with that. 'Nuff said.

As far as the a barrel "break-in, here is the procedure I've used for all of my rifles:

Prior to range testing, the DMR was put through a barrel break-in procedure using 200 rounds (total) Black Hills 52 gr BTHP Match ammunition as follows:
1) 5 x 1 rounds; after each round, the barrel was cleaned with 10 patches soaked in Bore Tech Cu+2 Copper Remover, followed by 3 dry patches. The barrel was then treated with 3 patches soaked in Kano Kroil Penetrating Solvent, followed by 3 dry patches.
2) 5 x 3 rounds; each group of 3 rounds followed by the above cleaning procedure.
3) 5 x 10 rounds; each group of 10 rounds followed by the above cleaning procedure.
4) 2 x 25 rounds; each group of 25 rounds followed by the above cleaning procedure.
5) 1 x 30 rounds; followed by the above cleaning procedure.
6) 1 x 50 rounds; followed by the above cleaning procedure.

After the break-in procedure, the weapon was cleaned using a nylon bore brush and patches with Hoppe's 9 solvent, and lubricated with Hoppe's Elite gun oil prior to storage.

I've read various debates about whether this affects accuracy or not and I don't have any way to compare, as I've done it with all my weapons. However, it does seem to help resist accumulation of crap in the barrel during firing and make cleaning afterwards easier, so I fugured it was worth the small effort.

Also, I already have marked the cleaning rod and run patches through it a couple of times to check the twist. It registered between 1 in 11" and 1 in 12" near as I can tell. I suspect that the 1 in 10" is probably correct for a couple of reasons. First, I'm guessing that there was probably some slippage in the patch test as I didn't double patch to make it as tight as I could have. Also, to the best of my knowledge, Sig has not marketed a 5.56 barrel with anything higher than a 1 in 10" twist anytime recently, so I doubt there could be any kind of a tooling or machining error. Finally, as I understand the physics and/or ballistics, unless the barrel is substantially longer than 21", velocity at or very near the muzzle is the highest that will be attained. For any given twist rate, as long as the linear acceleration of the projectile is increasing, so is the rate at which it is spinning. Although I take them with a grain of salt, some of the reports I've found where 1 in 9" twist barrels didn't seem to stabilize longer (heavier) rounds very well were done using 16" barrels. It's possible that the few extra inches of barrel may allow "getting away" with a 1 in 10" twist in this particular case, even if it's not optimal. I think the real test will be what it will do at 400 - 600 yd, which I haven't had the time to do at the range as yet. I'll post the results when I have them.

Finally, I the reference to use of the DMR for varmint hunting brings to mind a rather funny comment I received elsewhere. Because of the twist rate, as well as the weight (a loaded DMR as shown in the picture plus a Harris BRM bipod/Larue mount is close to 17 lbs) I can't really figure out exactly whom this weapon was marketed toward. Someone suggested that "556 Varmint" would have been a better marketing ploy.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

Nice report. I had look at these, but my dealer convinced me for a Rifle like this, I should be using a 7.62.

I thought the rumor was that the original designer of this rifle died and this caused the delay to market.

Anyway, good luck.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

Again I am not a fan of the Sig rifles but this write up is write ups at their best. The layout and information shared is top notch. Thanks
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Finally, I the reference to use of the DMR for varmint hunting brings to mind a rather funny comment I received elsewhere. Because of the twist rate, as well as the weight (a loaded DMR as shown in the picture plus a Harris BRM bipod/Larue mount is close to 17 lbs) I can't really figure out exactly whom this weapon was marketed toward. Someone suggested that "556 Varmint" would have been a better marketing ploy.
</div></div>

I think they looked around at all the AR rifles marketed as DMR/SPR/Marksman etc rifles and wanted to compete with them.

edit: a sig 556 like this in 7.62 would be tits I think.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

I bought a Sig 556 Classic, well actually traded for one to see what they were all about. I have yet to fire it due to other commitments but I like the feel/fit of the rifle and the diopter sights. I figured I could try it out and sell it if it wasn't my cup of tea. I looked at the DMR and I too figured with the 1 in 10" twist it was an odd choice considering the match loads for 5.56 seem to all be 69g to 77g. Glad to see yours is shooting nicely with the heavier match bullets. Excellent detailed review & post.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

great report . thanks for taking the time and effort to put out your experience. when it comes to guns im like jesus . I love them all.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

The chrono data - did you record or collect this from elsewhere? If you did this, what distance from muzzle? Thanks and good write up.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Iss

The chrono data are as advertised on the box (or website) so you have to take them with a grain of salt. I put them in just for reference purposes. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. Actually, I'm looking for a decent chrono...any suggestions? Price is not an issue, but I really don't need anything fancy. If it will record between 5 to 10 ten-shot strings, that will be enough.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Iss

My understanding is those reports are usually with 24" barrels and MV's are higher. Don't own a chrono but looks like I'll be buying one soon and this board is good for recommendations I'd take a look at before I bought one.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Iss

I think you're right about the 24" as a standard for most manufacturers. But for a couple of the ammos I had to get the info online and it didn't say. For my purposes, the drop in MV due to the 21" barrel should have been fairly proportional, so I used the only info I had available.

As far as the chrono, I thought the equipment forum here might be an excellent place to ask for suggestions when I get ready to buy. If you come into some good info, let me know.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Although I take them with a grain of salt, some of the reports I've found where 1 in 9" twist barrels didn't seem to stabilize longer (heavier) rounds very well were done using 16" barrels. It's possible that the few extra inches of barrel may allow "getting away" with a 1 in 10" twist in this particular case, even if it's not optimal. I think the real test will be what it will do at 400 - 600 yd, which I haven't had the time to do at the range as yet. I'll post the results when I have them.

Finally, I the reference to use of the DMR for varmint hunting brings to mind a rather funny comment I received elsewhere. Because of the twist rate, as well as the weight (a loaded DMR as shown in the picture plus a Harris BRM bipod/Larue mount is close to 17 lbs) I can't really figure out exactly whom this weapon was marketed toward. Someone suggested that "556 Varmint" would have been a better marketing ploy.
</div></div>



The mother of all range reports. I saw this on Sigforum and was hoping you would post it here as well as m4carbine. net for widest dissemination. There is a lot of palaver about twist rates on all of the forums, that is not supported by empiric tests such as yours.

The illustration that people often post from the army test that showed a tighter twist is better was in a 16" barrel IIRC - so I would tend to agree with your statement that the longer barrel may make a difference. Certainly if you could find your way to buying a 21" barrel AR with a 1:7 twist and repeat the above tests, you would be doing a great service to humanity.... Just a thought.
wink.gif


I also have a SigDMR. I got it mainly for target shooting out to 600 yards which it easily does, and it's fun to shoot. I'm looking forward to your long-range report.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

I use the Shooting Chrony Beta Master. Was about $120 and has done all I need from a chronograph.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

Inspired by your test, I did a "mini" version of it tonight with my 556 (same configuration as OP except mine has a Wotac 4-14x50).

Before tonight I had fired maybe 200 rounds of various .223 and 5.56, but all were 55 fmj. XM193 groups were not worth measuring, and the UMC wasn't much better. But the cheapest stuff I had was Ultramax, and I would get 1" to 1.5" groups at 100yds consistently.

Here's what I got tonight (sorry no MVs or std dev):

Hornady 40 gr Vmax 3-shot ONLY! 3/4"
Black Hills 52 gr Match (Blue box) 1 5/8"
Ultrmax 55 gr fmj 3/4" 1st group
" " 1 1/4" 2nd group
Handloaded 77 gr SMK 15/16"

All but the 40 gr Vmax were 5-shot groups. The BH 52 gr would have been a real nice group but for one just over an inch to left of the rest of the group. I'm sure I just yanked it. Same thing on the 2nd group of the Ultramax.

As far as the 77s, I was really surprised. The 15/16" was almost all vertical dispersion (if that's the right term). There was less than half an inch horizontally.

Some time next week I'm gonna go to the 200yd range when I have more time.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Iss

Thanks for the post patsim!

Putting together a report that seems to be somewhat contrary to traditional thinking on barrel twist rates, I had in the back of my mind that maybe it was just something specific about my DMR, and not applicable to 556 DMRs in general. So I'm glad to see you had similar results with a 77 gr load. Based on my 5- and 10-shot (not shown) groupings, I really believe that in the hands of a more experienced marksman, the DMR is probably more like a 0.5 MOA weapon. Having said that, I really wish Sig had used a 1 in 8" or 1 in 7" twist on the DMR.

Even though the weather here has been pretty decent the last couple of weekends, it's been really windy (15 - 25mph with 40 mph gusts). I really want to see how the 1 in 10" twist handles the 77 gr loads at 400 and 600 yd, particularly if it turns out that it's right on the edge of effectively stabilizing those rounds at 300 yd. But I figure it's enough of a challenge at this point even when it's calm (as yet, my feeble skills are no match for the Dark Side). And unfortunately, it's mostly been this highly variable crosswind at the 600 yd range where I shoot. So I've been waiting to get a better wind situation to try the DMR/77 gr loads at 400 - 600 yd for the first time. I'll post the figures when I get them.

As far as the verical dispersion, I've noticed a similar pattern. My thought is that it may have to do with the barrel heating up, but I'm not really sure. Mine does seem to settle down and group better after 5-10 shots. Perhaps someone here at Sniper's Hide has some better insight than I do as to the cause of the vertical "creep".
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Iss

I have a couple of thoughts on the vertical spread:

1. My P-poor eyesight and/or the reticle in the Wotac (kinda "busy"). My hold of the horizontal line may be fluctuating. Oh yeah, I'm shooting from a bipod / rear bag.

2. Variation in the powder charges with the handloads. I did not load them.

3. Like you said, the barrel heating up. I usually shoot a 5-shot string in less than 2 minutes. I'll have to note which shots start to "travel". Which direction of travel would most likely result from barrel getting hot, up or down?

Keep us posted, and good shooting to you.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Iss

I'm not sure if every barrel behaves the same as it heats. Instinct tells me each one can be different, but I'll leave that question to more experienced shooters. I do know that as it heats, the point of impact of my DMR tends to go up and right (mostly up, which I have been referring to as "creep"). At 100 yd, the change in POI from the first cold bore shot to shot #10 (shot in a time span of 3 - 5 min) is around 1/2 to 3/4 MOA. At this point the barrel is hot, but not so hot it would burn your hand if you touched it briefly. Anyhow, good shooting to you as well.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

BW113 The illustration that people often post from the army test that showed a tighter twist is better was in a 16" barrel IIRC - so I would tend to agree with your statement that the longer barrel may make a difference. Certainly if you could find your way to buying a 21" barrel AR with a 1:7 twist and repeat the above tests said:
<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]


I went back and looked up the army test. I was mistaken about the barrel length. The test was with the M16A1 which has a 20" barrel with 1:12 twist vs M16A2 which has a 20" barrel with a 1:7 twist. I've seen people on various forums who then extrapolate this test to M4 carbine derivatives with the 16" barrel. I guess the DMR is shooting the heavier bullets well due to a combination of the 21" barrel being better than the M4 16"barrel, and the 1:10 twist being better than the vietnam-era M16A1 1:12 twist. Sorry for the mistake. Here's a link (it's about 3/4 down the page):

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c05.htm#5_4
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Iss

Thanks for that post BW113, there was a LOT of interesting info on that link! I had not known the exact bullet length for the M855, although I was aware of how the whole twist rate issue originated.

What I really should have done in that report was to compare the exact bullet length for each of the rounds I used to the relative grouping and determine of there was any correlation (as opposed to the way I actually did it; heavier generally = longer). I looked for bullet lengths online for quite a while without finding the info I needed. When it started cutting into my range time, I gave up.

The other related item I noticed but really didn't go into detail about (because I didn't and still don't quite understand it) had to do with bullet shape. The heavier (longer) rounds (68 gr and up) that seemed to work better in the DMR were all BTHP. As BTHPs, they are actually longer than flat-based bullets of comparable weight, and my understanding is that this holds true for side of the bullet that is actually in contact with the rifling. So you'd think that if you were really pushing the DMR to its limit as far as what it could stabilize with a 1 in 10" twist, that it would have better results with the "shortest" heavy bullets. But as an example, the Hornady 75 gr TAP, which is supposed to be shorter for its weight, didn't perform so well in my hands. So I'm left wondering if that isn't more an issue of how the shape of the bullet affected its trajectory after it left the barrel, as opposed to a twist rate issue.

A far as buying a 21" AR with a 1 in 7" twist, believe me I've given it a lot of thought. I really prefer piston guns, so I've been waiting for the Sig 516 Precision Marksman to come out. It's only an 18" barrel, but it might do for such a test. Alternatively, I'm also interested in something in the .308 size range. Money is not much of an issue for me, but I can't really see getting both, even if it means not serving humanity to the greatest of my ability (LOL).

The good news is that Mother Nature (and the match schedules on the 600 yd range) are going to cooperate this weekend, so I should have some 400 and 600 yd data by next week. Midway USA has also done their part by speedily delivering many boxes of Federal and Black Hills 77 gr ammo, so I'm ready to get after it.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cool. If it were me I'd run a cleaning rod with tight patch down the bore and check the twist rate myself. Otherwise, you have totally debunked the heavy bullet 223/twist rate grail we have been operating under for years.

Thanks for the diligence and report! </div></div>

My SIG 556 also shoots the lighter 52 grain SMK's better than another weight. Yes I have used a Dewey rod to check and verify the 1:7 rwist. The 52 SMK's will shoot about 1-1.25" groups @ 100yards. As I went up in weight the groups got larger. With 69 and 77grain SMK's I get patterns not groups. (Most goups 3" or larger all are individually weighed and loaded). Tried various weights of various powder, Varget, 4895 3031, 748, same results. Go figure! My 556 is an early basic with swiss internals and barrel. Changed the fishgills to the Swiss 551 handguard set and a CTR buttstock.
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Santo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cool. If it were me I'd run a cleaning rod with tight patch down the bore and check the twist rate myself. Otherwise, you have totally debunked the heavy bullet 223/twist rate grail we have been operating under for years.

Thanks for the diligence and report! </div></div>

My SIG 556 also shoots the lighter 52 grain SMK's better than another weight. Yes I have used a Dewey rod to check and verify the 1:7 rwist. The 52 SMK's will shoot about 1-1.25" groups @ 100yards. As I went up in weight the groups got larger. With 69 and 77grain SMK's I get patterns not groups. (Most goups 3" or larger all are individually weighed and loaded). Tried various weights of various powder, Varget, 4895 3031, 748, same results. Go figure! My 556 is an early basic with swiss internals and barrel. Changed the fishgills to the Swiss 551 handguard set and a CTR buttstock. </div></div>

What the..! So the DMR with 1:10 twist shot light and heavy bullets well; and the 556 with 1:7 twist shot light bullets well and had trouble with the heavier bullets? This thread is becoming subversive. Next you guys are gonna tell me the the world is flat... that the sun rises in the west... that the moon landings never occurred... that the French make good soldiers ... that the U. of Nebraska knows loyalty... hey, don't make me come over there.
laugh.gif


Very interesting. The Greenhill twist formula suggests 1:11.5 for the M193 and predicts 1:9.62 for the heavier/longer M855. The actual specific numbers derived from the formula may be off, but the general trend certainly concurs with the conventional wisdom that the faster twist is needed for heavier bullets. I couldn't get the more accurate Miller formula excel spreadsheet to work for me. Ruh Roh... steam's comin out of my ear. I better stop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-and-stability/
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Issue

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BW113</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Santo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cool. If it were me I'd run a cleaning rod with tight patch down the bore and check the twist rate myself. Otherwise, you have totally debunked the heavy bullet 223/twist rate grail we have been operating under for years.

Thanks for the diligence and report! </div></div>

My SIG 556 also shoots the lighter 52 grain SMK's better than another weight. Yes I have used a Dewey rod to check and verify the 1:7 rwist. The 52 SMK's will shoot about 1-1.25" groups @ 100yards. As I went up in weight the groups got larger. With 69 and 77grain SMK's I get patterns not groups. (Most goups 3" or larger all are individually weighed and loaded). Tried various weights of various powder, Varget, 4895 3031, 748, same results. Go figure! My 556 is an early basic with swiss internals and barrel. Changed the fishgills to the Swiss 551 handguard set and a CTR buttstock. </div></div>

What the..! So the DMR with 1:10 twist shot light and heavy bullets well; and the 556 with 1:7 twist shot light bullets well and had trouble with the heavier bullets? This thread is becoming subversive. Next you guys are gonna tell me the the world is flat... that the sun rises in the west... that the moon landings never occurred... that the French make good soldiers ... that the U. of Nebraska knows loyalty... hey, don't make me come over there.
laugh.gif


Very interesting. The Greenhill twist formula suggests 1:11.5 for the M193 and predicts 1:9.62 for the heavier/longer M855. The actual specific numbers derived from the formula may be off, but the general trend certainly concurs with the conventional wisdom that the faster twist is needed for heavier bullets. I couldn't get the more accurate Miller formula excel spreadsheet to work for me. Ruh Roh... steam's comin out of my ear. I better stop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-and-stability/



</div></div>
I am good friends with Ullie one of the the site moderators of the sigarms556,com site. We have talked many times about my weird SIG 556 shooting the 52 smk's well and problems with heavier bullets many times and we still are at our wits end as to why my freaky 556 behaves that way. All my other 1:7 twist rifles behave as expected. Maybe the world is flat and the sun rises in the west.
confused.gif
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Iss

That's rich! Really, not trying to be subversive...I can only report to the best of my ability what my DMR does, and it may not be representative of other DMRs or the effects of twist rates on bullet lengths in general.

BTW: the world <span style="text-decoration: underline">is</span> flat from a small enough perspective; the sun will rise in the west when the magnetic poles shift again; I'm pretty sure the "moon" rocks were something picked up by the "Meteorite Men"; I'm not touching the French thing, and I just work at University of Nebraska. Go Boilermakers!!!
 
Re: Sig 556 DMR Range Report/Barrel Twist Rate Iss

My 21" barrel DMR was able to shoot sub MOA as well. This was off the factory Harris bipod/YHM adapter and using a bag under the grip @ an indoor range. I found the most accurate load out of my rifle to be the Hornady Match 75gr BTHP and Fiocchi Exacta 77gr SMK. I haven't had the opportunity to shoot it at an outdoor range yet, or past 100yrds. With the current ammunition situation I doubt I will be able to get my hands on anymore of the good ammunition anytime soon. I do have about 80rds of the 75gr Hornady still though but I don't want to "waste it" yet.

Anyway here are my results. All were 5 shot groups, and the "3-shot groups" were me measuring the closest 3 out of the 5. I took 4 5rd groups with each type of ammunition, shooting each group back to back without letting the rifle cool more than a couple minutes between each grouping (enough time to bring the target in and send another one out). The 75gr and 77gr groupings were the last to be done, with the barrel nice and toasty.

(All testing was 4 groups of 5 shots each. Measured each 5-shot and the closest 3 out of each 5. Factory Sig 556 DMR 21" Barrel with a Leupold MKIV 4.5-14x mounted on Leupold QWR medium rings)

.223 Hornady GNX 35gr-
Average 5-shot: 1.489"
Best 5-shot: 1.296"
Average 3-shot: 0.876"
Best 3-shot: 0.688"

.223 Nosler Custom 40gr-
Average 5-shot: 1.522"
Best 5-shot: 1.303"
Average 3-shot: 0.831"
Best 3-shot: 0.552"

.223 Hornady 40gr TAP-
Average 5-shot: 1.686"
Best 5-shot: 1.288"
Average 3-shot: 0.922"
Best 3-shot: 0.733"

.223 Hornady 40gr Varmint-
Average 5-shot: 1.719"
Best 5-shot: 1.141"
Average 3-shot: 0.810"
Best 3-shot: 0.403"

.223 Federal Premium 43gr Speer TNT-
Average 5-shot: 2.380"
Best 5-shot: 2.051
Average 3-shot: 1.221"
Best 3-shot: 0.919"

.223 Winchester 45gr Varmint JHP-
Average 5-shot: 1.876"
Best 5-shot: 1.336"
Average 3-shot: 1.039"
Best 3-shot: 1.016"

.223 Hornady Match 53gr HP W/C-
Average 5-shot: 1.622"
Best 5-shot: 1.276"
Average 3-shot: 0.695"
Best 3-shot: 0.461"

.223 Black Hills Reman. 55gr FMJ-
Average 5-shot: 2.424"
Best 5-shot: 1.965"
Average 3-shot: 1.039"
Best 3-shot: 0.749"

.223 Federal Premium 69gr Sierra Match King-
Average 5-shot: 2.118"
Best 5-shot: 1.526"
Average 3-shot: 1.084"
Best 3-shot: 0.831"

.223 Hornady Match 75gr BTHP-
Average 5-shot 1.567"
Best 5-shot: 0.992"
Average 3-shot: 0.733"
Best 3-shot: 0.339"

.223 Fiocchi Exacta Match 77gr Sierra Match King-
Average 5-shot: 1.569"
Best 5-shot: 0.540"
Average 3-shot: 0.747"
Best 3-shot: 0.248"



Average of 'average' 5-shot groups: 1.816"
Average of 'average' 3-shot groups: 0.915"

Average of 'best' 5-shot groups: 1.338"
Average of 'best' 3-shot groups: 0.631"

Best 5-shot group: Fiocchi Exacta Match 77gr SMK - 0.540"
Best 3-shot group: Fiocchi Exacta Match 77gr SMK - 0.248"



My DMR has a factory quad rail on it, and it doesn't have any play in it at all like you claim yours has? Anyway I love this rifle, its a great firearm for sure.