Sidearms & Scatterguns Sig p320 lawsuit

[swampbuck]

I have been reading a few articles about law enforcement officers sueing Sig for random discharges from p320 pistols. Of course any handgun is able to be carelessly fired but these lawsuits seem to be from veteran LEOs. One officers pistol fired and was supposed caught on film by the precinct's surveillance camera. These discharges have reportedly happened while holstered in trigger covering holsters. Also I have read that a few departments have switched back to Glocks. Has anyone on the hide had any experience with a p320 safety issue? Not trying to kick a hornets nest but these lawsuits are giving me pause on my Christmas list.

 

[StaveyIL]

I personally loaded up a primed case and beat the living fuck out of a few p320s, dropped them etc.. . Never a discharge . When someone shoots themself , they tend to try to blame someone or something else.

 

[Mr. Z]

I’ve got one pointed at my Peter right this moment. They’re doin it wrong.

 

[jMarine]

I’ve got one pointed at my Peter right this moment. They’re doin it wrong.

That would be unfortunate!

 

[Longshot231]

I have a Sig P320. This is very embarrassing but I'm going to tell on myself and at the same time promote Sig.

My P320 fell out of my holster - twice. It was my fault and I'm not making excuses but have since modified my carry methods.

The holster was made of Kydex and secured the pistol around the weapon light. It also had a cutout in the front to permit faster drawing. I wore it covered.

The holster did a great job of securing the pistol. I tested it by putting the gun in the holster, unloaded, and shook the hell out of it upside down and every angle that I could think of.

The pistol did not fall out during the test.

The reason it fell out was I had a back pack slung with one strap over my right shoulder. When I removed the back pack from the shoulder, the lower part of the strap caught the pistol's grip.

This was enough to lift the pistol out and away from holster allowing gravity to take over. Like an idiot, this happened a second time!

Since then, I carry and remove the back pack over the left shoulder.

The reason that I share all this, is hopefully, someone will benefit from my idiotic mistake. Secondly, it's to say that even though the pistol landed on the beavertail, both times, it did NOT discharge!

I consider the fact that the pistol not discharging a big testament to the safety of the Sig design.

Give me a second to slip into something flame-retardant before some of you submit your replies. Thanks.

 

[Makinchips208]

Put it in a Serpa and it won’t fall out.

 

[Jackomason]

All that and I'm still jonesing for a X compact.

 

[WindstormSCR]

There was a small defect in a few of the intial production runs that allowed it to fire when dropped, but it was not an easy condition to achieve. SIG changed the design anyway despite the crazy amount of factors that had to come together to create the event, and all subsequently manufactured 320s are safe as can be (including every single M17/18)

if you own a very early one check the recall notices, if it's not a very early one nothing to worry about.

 

[Jgault]

I personally loaded up a primed case and beat the living fuck out of a few p320s, dropped them etc.. . Never a discharge . When someone shoots themself , they tend to try to blame someone or something else.

I did somewhat the same thing, wrapped it in a towel and but it in the dryer until my wife made me stop, and it didn’t fire. It’s worth to note that Glock has had the same lawsuits that tend to come in bunches, in one year over 120 lapd officers blamed Glock for discharges, and in that case as well I’ve never seen it occur in person, and between Glocks and the p320 I couldn’t even hazard a guess to how many times I’ve seen it carried. The most telling thing to me is that not one single civilian has made this claim about the p320 other than the one that stated it went off after dropped before the fix, considering the shear amount of people who carry the p320 in civilian life if it was a problem it should have happened at least once. Then you read the actual claims and a different picture emerges. The female detective threw hers in a purse while it was already in a Serpa holster, a holster that is a terrible design to begin with. One deputy is on film holstering and reholstering the weapon repeatedly while in a room full of kids, and a number of them admit trying to jam the gun into a p226 holster.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Why??

During a drawstroke, the location of the holster release button puts your finger in close proximity to the trigger, which could cause an accidental discharge.

 

[calling4life]

Mine is a Wilson Combat 320 but I smack it around every time I clean it to make sure things work properly, never had an issue, not on safe and not off safe, doesn't fire unless off safe and trigger is pulled.

I test all my guns this way though, rifle, shotgun, revolver, make sure their safety mechanisms work if they have them, make sure they also don't fire when off safety unless you pull the trigger.

Trigger jobs done right will pass all of that, my Wilson 320 has their trigger job, my old competition rifle was always checked like this, 1 1/4lb trigger, no issues.

 

[308pirate]

There was a small defect in a few of the intial production runs that allowed it to fire when dropped, but it was not an easy condition to achieve. SIG changed the design anyway despite the crazy amount of factors that had to come together to create the event, and all subsequently manufactured 320s are safe as can be (including every single M17/18)

if you own a very early one check the recall notices, if it's not a very early one nothing to worry about.

/end thread

 

[Jgault]

During a drawstroke, the location of the holster release button puts your finger in close proximity to the trigger, which could cause an accidental discharge.

That ^ if I wanted to design a holster so people would shoot themselves in the foot that would be it. In the particular case of the female detective there isn’t any telling how many foreign objects made contact with the release button on the holster inside that purse.

 

[TurboTrout]

I have been reading a few articles about law enforcement officers sueing Sig for random discharges from p320 pistols. Of course any handgun is able to be carelessly fired but these lawsuits seem to be from veteran LEOs. One officers pistol fired and was supposed caught on film by the precinct's surveillance camera. These discharges have reportedly happened while holstered in trigger covering holsters. Also I have read that a few departments have switched back to Glocks. Has anyone on the hide had any experience with a p320 safety issue? Not trying to kick a hornets nest but these lawsuits are giving me pause on my Christmas list.

Them and Alex Baldwin, yeah it’s always another guys fault. Must be cool to be LE or a B list celeb.


One of the better and more true lines in a film




As far as it “going off” while in a proper holster, call me…skeptical

 

[MarshallDodge]

Only if someone is stupid enough to not control the most used finger they have when they draw a deadly weapon.
I don’t like the serpa for other reasons but is isn’t any more problematic than a sig p320.

I owned a Serpa years ago, never had an issue, but switched to a Safariland ALS because I liked the build quality.

Trigger control is a thing except there are many new or inexperienced users that may not realize the danger.

 

[Jgault]

Only if someone is stupid enough to not control the most used finger they have when they draw a deadly weapon.
I don’t like the serpa for other reasons but is isn’t any more problematic than a sig p320.

It depends, on a range no the Serpa is fine. It doesn’t take much common sense to realize if you are trying to draw quickly for match or defense issues having to push a button directly in line with the trigger as you pull the gun up is a terrible idea. You can speak about trigger discipline all you wish but if your getting shot at that discipline might be a little off, and in a match it’s just to easy for adrenaline to get the best of you for a split second.

 

[Makinchips208]

It depends, on a range no the Serpa is fine. It doesn’t take much common sense to realize if you are trying to draw quickly for match or defense issues having to push a button directly in line with the trigger as you pull the gun up is a terrible idea. You can speak about trigger discipline all you wish but if your getting shot at that discipline might be a little off, and in a match it’s just to easy for adrenaline to get the best of you for a split second.

That’s the thing, not supposed to push a button. Align the booger finger along the slide and get a grip and it defeats the retention.

 

[Im2bent]

Was it this guy?

 

[Jgault]

That’s the thing, not supposed to push a button. Align the booger finger along the slide and get a grip and it defeats the retention.

I get the concept, but like a Harley with a suicide clutch it sounds like a great idea until you actually ride one. It’s just my opinion I hate them.

 

[Jgault]

Was it this guy?

I think the only video I’ve watched more than that one is Georgia winning the national championship and I will never get tired of either one.

 

[Makinchips208]

I get the concept, but like a Harley with a suicide clutch it sounds like a great idea until you actually ride one. It’s just my opinion I hate them.

Haha! Well I won’t disagree with that.

 

[TurboTrout]

I get the concept, but like a Harley with a suicide clutch it sounds like a great idea until you actually ride one. It’s just my opinion I hate them.

Suicide CLUTCH?

You mean jockey shift?

 

[Im2bent]

Suicide CLUTCH?

You mean jockey shift?

Suicide clutch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TurboTrout]

Suicide clutch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Huh, never had a HD but always heard that called jockey shift, don learned something new

 

[Longshot231]

Was it this guy?

That one never gets old. Rumor has it that the DEA Agent and Alec Baldwin are dating.

 

[boomslang]

I have been reading a few articles about law enforcement officers sueing Sig for random discharges from p320 pistols. Of course any handgun is able to be carelessly fired but these lawsuits seem to be from veteran LEOs. One officers pistol fired and was supposed caught on film by the precinct's surveillance camera. These discharges have reportedly happened while holstered in trigger covering holsters. Also I have read that a few departments have switched back to Glocks. Has anyone on the hide had any experience with a p320 safety issue? Not trying to kick a hornets nest but these lawsuits are giving me pause on my Christmas list.

This wouldn’t happen to be LAPD….
Would it?

 

[TurboTrout]

That one never gets old. Rumor has it that the DEA Agent and Alec Baldwin are dating.

 

[Jgault]

Suicide clutch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No it’s called a suicide clutch, they basically took a rocker clutch that is operated with your heel and made it spring loaded so if you released pressure with your foot it would throw into the next gear rather quickly. You find them on older chopped bikes. The problem is if your foot slips off the peddle while say at a traffic light it will throw it into gear and you foward rather quickly, and made it difficult to stop. https://sturgis.com/blog/suicide-clutch-a-definition?format=amp, the jockey shifter is a shifter and a clutch is a clutch rather different parts.

 

[atomic41]

I have an early 320 and it's fine, daily carry with no worries.

I hate even commenting on this but there is not a damn thing wrong with the serpa holster. Someone mentioned the release button is in line with the trigger, this is false it is not. The release button is higher, in line with the edge of the slide. You depress the button, draw the weapon, then have to move your finger down to the trigger because it is up on the edge of slide due to the perfectly fine location of the release button. For a fat finger retard to shoot themselves, you have to fucking try. It is not the holster that is the problem, it's mouthbreathers that will shoot their dumbass with any holster.

If anything, the Serpa is actually safer as it forces your finger higher than the trigger on a draw. You have to put in the effort to fuck it up.

 

[300zx_tt]

All that and I'm still jonesing for a X compact.

Do it, they’re super hot fire. 10/10 would recommend to a friend

 

[308pirate]

That’s the thing, not supposed to push a button. Align the booger finger along the slide and get a grip and it defeats the retention.

You're arguing against what our bodies will do under stress. You will lose that argument every time.

You only have to fuck up once for this to be a problem.

 

[candyx]

I personally loaded up a primed case and beat the living fuck out of a few p320s, dropped them etc.. . Never a discharge . When someone shoots themself , they tend to try to blame someone or something else.

Did you put your thumb in the trigger guard when banging it on the table ?

 

[StaveyIL]

Did you put your thumb in the trigger guard when banging it on the table ?

You mean to simulate a moron. No

 

[StaveyIL]

You mean to simulate a moron. No

I wasn’t testing for human error

 

[Maelstrom]

I was issued a Serpa holster at work for about 6 months. While we never had any negligent discharges, myself and 2 others did have issues after getting into fights that ended up on the ground. In my case I was fighting with a local drug dealer on a dirt road at one of out community beaches. While rolling on the ground a small stone got behind the activation button and jammed it. As a result I could not draw my weapon. After everything was said and done we had to take a dremel to cut the holster apart to get my pistol out. After that we switched back to Safariland ALS holsters

 

[Kilosierra]

I was issued a Serpa holster at work for about 6 months. While we never had any negligent discharges, myself and 2 others did have issues after getting into fights that ended up on the ground. In my case I was fighting with a local drug dealer on a dirt road at one of out community beaches. While rolling on the ground a small stone got behind the activation button and jammed it. As a result I could not draw my weapon. After everything was said and done we had to take a dremel to cut the holster apart to get my pistol out. After that we switched back to Safariland ALS holsters

I have had and seen similar incidents with Safariland SLS and ALS holsters. Still wouldn’t carry in a SERPA due to the poor quality plastic used in their construction and the poor design of the cant feature leading to suboptimal placement unless you carry with a straight cant.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

This wouldn’t happen to be LAPD….
Would it?

I think it was a Boston PD recently. My first thought was "Did they send it back to SIG for rework after the recall?"

 

[swampbuck]

I found this report to be very interesting. I was seriously considering one of the 320s for Father's Day but I'm gonna have to push pause on that.

Cops Keeps Suing Sig Sauer Because Their Service Weapons Randomly Fire

“They’re the most goddamn unsafe thing on the planet,” one gun expert told VICE News.

www.vice.com

I really love my p365 for summer carry and I appreciate the next level engineering that has upped the anti for subcompact firepower, but we all know that Sig has a history of releasing products and then letting the first round of buyers finish the R&D. Like the 365 recall and Sig Cross recall.

 

[Milf Dots]

I found this report to be very interesting. I was seriously considering one of the 320s for Father's Day but I'm gonna have to push pause on that.

Cops Keeps Suing Sig Sauer Because Their Service Weapons Randomly Fire

“They’re the most goddamn unsafe thing on the planet,” one gun expert told VICE News.

www.vice.com

I really love my p365 for summer carry and I appreciate the next level engineering that has upped the anti for subcompact firepower, but we all know that Sig has a history of releasing products and then letting the first round of buyers finish the R&D. Like the 365 recall and Sig Cross recall.

The video is old, it's PRE p320 recall. And try to cite neutral sources- The Vice is a left wing, anti-gun propaganda rag that is known to play fast and loose with the 'facts'. Both of those factors have me convinced you're just trolling the topic for fun!

There were recalls for the p320, Cross, and perhaps a carbine rifle, but never a recall for the p365. A small percentage of improperly heat treated strikers got blown way out of proportion by the internetz.

For me, any p320 that hasn't been upgraded is to be avoided, but upgraded p320s are fine. Just like Glock mid gen 3 and newer are fine. Like any of the five Walther safety recalled pistols are fine after upgrade. Or the 4-5 Rugers or S&Ws after upgrade for safety issues. Or the upgraded after recall Canik models. There are more pistol makers with safety related recalls, but you get the point that they fix the issues.

 

[Milf Dots]

One thing even hi res video can't tell us- "was there/was there not, a foreign object in the holster that might have unintentionally depressed the trigger". Something like a key, coin, cord, wire, piece of equipment, part of the uniform, debris.

It's possible an officer's movement causes just enough tension on a foreign object in a holster, and enough flex on a holster to result in discharges- discharges that might not always happen at time of reholstering, but happen with the movement, tension, and flexing.

 

[LawnMM]

That foreign object in the holster argument is such a red herring.

Been carrying guns on duty and off for just shy of two decades ain't never been or seen or even heard of keys or cords happening. I know of one occasion of somebody claiming that and frankly I think the person was goofing off.

Having said that...

The "upgraded" P320s are pretty freaking safe. The disconnector keeps the trigger mechanism deactivated if the slide is out of battery.

The trigger bar safety won't release the striker unless you pull the trigger. Similar concept to the striker safety on a Glock. You can't even take it apart without unloading it, the gun forces you to even if you're a complete moron.

I don't see it happening by sheer happenstance. Something either has to pull the trigger which is already a no-no. Or something would have to basically force the sear down inside the gun releasing the striker and bypassing the other safeties and that striker not only has a return spring holding it in the upright position but static and spring tension from the striker pulling against it.

The people suing are either full of shit or using early non upgraded pistols and victims of the perfect set of circumstances. Knowing and working around Cops, I'm guessing it's negligence or tomfoolery resulting in gunfire.

Guns are mechanical devices and they behave in a mechanical fashion as designed. Humans are the weak link that do dumb shit that make mechanical devices do things they're not supposed to do.

CAN you get a draw cord from a coat snagged in your trigger as you force it into your holster, sure it's possible, but I think the odds of being sodomized by the Easter Bunny on a coke and booze bender are probably higher.

Even if you did manage to do that, is that the guns fault, or your dumb ass' fault? Take some responsibility for keeping your gear squared away.

If you've got little shit hanging and flip flopping around where you put your gun back in it's holster, either trim that shit, tape it down, secure it somehow or buy a fucking jacket more suited to carrying a gun around.

This is like the 110lb woman who blames Safariland when she gets disarmed by a 250lb drunk guy in a bar parking lot because the holster didn't retain the weapon for her.

At some point it's your fault people. You can put 37 safeties on a gun and I guarantee some retard will be showing off in front of his buddies and put one in his fucking foot. Own it.

Modern cars have air bags, anti lock brakes, parking brakes, shit some of them have proximity warnings and auto braking but if you leave it in drive and jump out to do a TikTok dance and it crashes is that the car's fault? Fuckin Ford amirite?!

 

[Milf Dots]

I wish I could find that video of the uniformed officer running into a mall for a shots fired with his AR slinged in front when a piece of gear on his front depresses the AR's trigger and fires a round. To his credit he just kept running like nothing happened.

Many people, cops included, don't observe, or can't (obesity) see fully into their holsters to make sure they're clear- there are documented cases of NDs- that's why many top trainers cover the topic.

 

[swampbuck]

I'm not trolling just for fun. I've been a full member on here for quite some time so you can see my past posts. I'm definitely a rifle guy and don't have a ton of pistol experience. I'm genuinely looking for the truth from someone who doesn't have a financial interest in propaganda one way or the other. I'm not anti Sig and I appreciate the contributions they have made to the firearms industry. But I'm also a husband and father of 2 so my concern comes from a genuine place. If you want to disregard the media from VICE that's fine. What do you think about the video from Omaha Outdoors? Surely they have something to gain by continuing to sell this product and something to lose by refusing to sell it?

 

[Milf Dots]

I'm not trolling just for fun. I've been a full member on here for quite some time so you can see my past posts. I'm definitely a rifle guy and don't have a ton of pistol experience. I'm genuinely looking for the truth from someone who doesn't have a financial interest in propaganda one way or the other. I'm not anti Sig and I appreciate the contributions they have made to the firearms industry. But I'm also a husband and father of 2 so my concern comes from a genuine place. If you want to disregard the media from VICE that's fine. What do you think about the video from Omaha Outdoors? Surely they have something to gain by continuing to sell this product and something to lose by refusing to sell it?

Again that vid from OO is from Aug 2017 and PRIOR to the Sig p320 recall (Nov 2017). It doesn't support the hypothesis of the updated p320 firing on its own.

Don't overlook the great poly striker pistols from CZ, HK, Walther, Beretta.

 

[swampbuck]

Thanks for the reply. Exactly the kind of info I'm looking for here on the hide. I appreciate your input.

 

[pmclaine]

Look at pictures of the early, trials M17, and the new.

Looks to me they found that the trademark Sig style trigger, through inertia, would pull itself on dropping.

Either fix that by increasing trigger to sear contact and creating 12 pound pull, lighten the trigger mass ( what they did), or just don’t drop your fucking gun.

 

[LawnMM]

I'm genuinely looking for the truth from someone who doesn't have a financial interest in propaganda one way or the other.

You asked the question and it's been answered, modern post upgrade versions are perfectly safe from everyone but the mentally retarded.

If you live in a clinical setting and aren't allowed outside unsupervised it might not be the gun for you.

If you're a red blooded American with some common sense and firearms safety skills you'll be fine

 

[swampbuck]

You asked the question and it's been answered, modern post upgrade versions are perfectly safe from everyone but the mentally retarded.

Yes it has been answered why you are continuing to add to point that out is beyond me.

 

[LawnMM]

Yes it has been answered why you are continuing to add to point that out is beyond me.

 

[pmclaine]

Here “sig mechanics” shows the pre vs post differences. He has high quality videos I might add!
On the upgrade Sig reduced the mass of the trigger and the sear, also redesigned a sketchy striker safety lever, as well as a few other minor changes.
Necessary changes since this is a single action pistol.
The upgrade version is perfectly safe.

The sound of the reset on the "pre" FCU makes me want one.