Rifle Scopes Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

[hydro556]

When at the range yesterday there was a BR competition of some sort. They were wrapping when I got there.

As I usually do I walked down the line kind of checking out the weapons and meeting guys I havent met before.

On of the guys had a 36X(I think that is what he said) Sightron. The scope had 2 plastic knobs clearly installed after it left the factory. One of the knobs was on the underside of the scope body and the other on the left side, where our scopes typically have parallax adjustments.

I asked WTH they were for and he said they locked his reticule in place. Immediately I asked if he had a "wandering Zero" prior to installing.

His reply was all scopes do unless you spend $2500. I wasnt going to argue but I told him I had $300 VXII's on hunting rifles that never have moved, but they didnt get shot a ton nor did I move the zero much once sighted in.

I am just curious about this. Does it even work? It appeared that he had drilled into the side of the scope body and screwed these things into the erector system. Looks like it would do all kind of weird shit to the reticule, including distort things.

I looked through the scope and was not at all impressed with the image. Very cloudy with a very finicky "eyebox". Wouldnt be happy if I had paid $600 for a fixed power with that kind of resolution and the necessity of screwing "locks" into it to maintain zero.

 

[Longshot38]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

Hate to say it but this guy is full of it. My sub $1000 dollar scopes hold zero just fine (including my Sightron).

 

[Joeyhotfizzle]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

That's interesting. I would like to see a picture of the scope.

 

[hydro556]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

I didnt take any pictures. It was small (looked small to me, especially for such a high power) scope, looked to be a 1" tube to my eye. The plastic "knobs" were after market. He said he added them for "about $150". Little plasic, white knobs. About 1/2-3/4" diameter and maybe 1" long, exposed.

 

[hydro556]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

Knob may not be the right word. These arent adjusted once set. He said you drill the holes, then get your zero set. Once zero is set, you look through the tube and tighten the plastic things until you feel resistance. Then you leave them alone. They prevent the reticule from moving. Seems that you would loas the seal on the internals by drilling into the body to me, but that is what he had done.

 

[NaHa]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

You guys who denigrate this stuff should pull your heads out, and contemplate that there's a world of shooting outside your area of familiarity. The Benchrest (BR) crowd is in pursuit of putting every shot in the same hole.

The idea that Longshot thinks his scopes hold zero just fine is silly compared to a BR shooter whose 6ppc will easily shoot five or ten round groups in less than 1/10 of an inch (center to center) at 100y when the shooter and conditions are right. Longshot, I guarantee if you bring your gear to a BR match that you will finish dead last, by a longshot. So, keep your perspective. Having a rifle that can put five shots in 3/4" with regularity is NOT even in the league with these boys.

Some BR shooters have evolved to "frozen" reticles, meaning they mechanically lock them in place. Image quality, etc. are all secondary to absolutely holding point of aim.

The BR crowd is obsessed with the finest degree of accuracy possible. Match winners, at 100y, often shoot all five of their record groups into an average of less than 0.1500". So take your best single group ever. Shrink it. Then do it five times in a row.

Their actions are glued to their stocks. Yes, glued. Their triggers do not exceed two ounces. Yes, ounces. It's a different sort of shooting, where there's no consideration for FFP vs. second focal plane, or drag bags, or ft. lbs. of energy downrange, or camo, or magazine feeding.

These shooters are stalking absolute best accuracy, and locking a reticle in place is one notion that some of them consider to be an advantage.

 

[Longshot38]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

Nate. You may know the BR thing up and down but don't try to tell me what I do and don't know. As for know what I'll do and what my rifles do you don't have a clue. I want have a precision rifle that doesn't hold under 1/2 moa. As a matter of fact both of mine keep 1/4 or less.

As for the BR thing, yes it is a different discipline, no doubt. But just because I think a lot of what they do is silly doesn't mean I'm wrong. I know (because I've done it) if I place my rifles in vise they will put every bullet in one hole. And they do this without gluing actions to stock and triggers that go off by sneezing.

So nate if you want to disagree with me that is fine, but don't try to discredit my by talking about things you don't know about. I would suggest you use more objective information next time. Taking thus subjective approach just opens up your arguements to have holes shot all in them.

 

[Advokaten]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nate. You may know the BR thing up and down but don't try to tell me what I do and don't know. As for know what I'll do and what my rifles do you don't have a clue. I want have a precision rifle that doesn't hold under 1/2 moa. As a matter of fact both of mine keep 1/4 or less.

As for the BR thing, yes it is a different discipline, no doubt. But just because I think a lot of what they do is silly doesn't mean I'm wrong. I know (because I've done it) if I place my rifles in vise they will put every bullet in one hole. And they do this without gluing actions to stock and triggers that go off by sneezing.

So nate if you want to disagree with me that is fine, but don't try to discredit my by talking about things you don't know about. I would suggest you use more objective information next time. Taking thus subjective approach just opens up your arguements to have holes shot all in them. </div></div>

Longshot, you really have no clue,

live with it or get educated.

Start by googling Freezing scopes, then go get a few pounds of humbleness.

/Chris

 

[hydro556]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nate. You may know the BR thing up and down but don't try to tell me what I do and don't know. As for know what I'll do and what my rifles do you don't have a clue. I want have a precision rifle that doesn't hold under 1/2 moa. As a matter of fact both of mine keep 1/4 or less.

As for the BR thing, yes it is a different discipline, no doubt. But just because I think a lot of what they do is silly doesn't mean I'm wrong. I know (because I've done it) if I place my rifles in vise they will put every bullet in one hole. And they do this without gluing actions to stock and triggers that go off by sneezing.

So nate if you want to disagree with me that is fine, but don't try to discredit my by talking about things you don't know about. I would suggest you use more objective information next time. Taking thus subjective approach just opens up your arguements to have holes shot all in them. </div></div>

you are losing this debate. I have never messed with BR, but the type of accuracy they attain is a totally different animal than we are after. Their groups are tiny. Hunting/LR precision have no need or chance of shooting like that. I also question your claim of one hole groups with a tactical rifle, even in a vise. It would be a big hole.

 

[Longshot38]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

Guys I gave my two cents here. Take it however you want it. If you don't like it or me that is fine. If you do agree with me then more power to you also. Either way this debate is tuning personal and I'm out before it blows up.

 

[hydro556]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

Not a big deal man. This post should have been fairly pedestrian, didnt think it would end up hostile. I was just wondering how common these little plastic zero retention knobs were. It was a new one to me. The BR guys are some seriously hardcore bastards. Thats good for us all in the long run.

 

[NaHa]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys I gave my two cents here. Take it however you want it. If you don't like it or me that is fine. If you do agree with me then more power to you also. Either way this debate is tuning personal and I'm out before it blows up. </div></div>

You're out of the "debate" because you're out of your realm. Hydro asked a good question -- i.e. what the hell are these BR guys doing? He was looking for info. You chimed in with a bias towards, not knowledge of, the BR shooting scene.

Some of these dudes weigh primers. Virtually all of them neck-turn their brass, and sort bullets by 1/10 gr. weight. They measure runout, and use wind flags, and have rests that are incredibly precise.

Yet you think they are FOS, and that your gear works as good. Well, that's your prerogative. Go ahead and think that your rifle(s), if put in a vise, would put every shot in the same hole. Maybe your claim would have a bit more credibility if you posted a legitimate photo of a target, with five consecutive 5-shot groups on it. The standard LowLight politely demanded when posters boast about their groups.

Let's see that 1/4 minute rifle's results, witnessed by somebody credible.

Is BR and frozen scope reticles and the like for me? Nope. But I sure as hell respect what they (BR shooters) do, and the value it brings to the more mainstream shooting alternatives. I watched a buddy, using a 6ppc built by a precision craftsman, with a Nightforce 12-42x56 (BR model), shoot a fly at 100y, while he said "watch this". Then another fly landed on his target, and he did it again. Bloody fly splatter was all that remained. Two flies, two shots, two hits. It's a different level of accuracy.

 

[Al Nyhus]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

hydro556:
The white 'knobs' you saw are actually Delrin screws that bear against the erector tube opposite of the w/e adjustments. They stabilize the erector tube assy. and help ensure the erector tube remains in the exact same position after each shot.

Testing has shown that there can be up to .020 (at 100 yds.) of reticle shift. At the current level of BR competition, an extra .020 on your five shot/five group aggregate or the one .0625 'X' dot you miss in Score shooting will make a hero into a zero at the end of the day. It's just that competitive.

Other approaches are to remove the w/e adjustments completely and epoxy the erector tube into the scope main tube. External adjustments assys. are then used to make w/e changes. Think of the old Unertyl setups...but brought into the 21st. century with mfg. techniques and materials.

I have a 'frozen' Sightron set up exactly this way and wil be wringing it out in the next week or two.

The hard fact is: scopes move their p.o.i., no matter what the brand. That most people don't ever see this is because the accuracy of their gun doesn't let this show through. In a .5" gun, nobody can tell .020 of scope error, believe me.

It's just the evolution of the game....we leave no stone unturned when we look for every weak spot in the chain, that's a fact.

The new March scopes have been designed internally to get around this issue. Time will tell if they deliver on the promise..initial reports are promising, though.

Here's a pic of my setup just to give you an idea.

Hopes this clarifies things a bit. -Al

 

[NJN]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

You girls are mighty quiet after the last post. Sam

 

[hydro556]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

Thanks Nate and Al.

Al- The little thing-a0majiggies this guy had were white plastic devices that stuck out probably 3/4" from the tube. I am sure they are doing exactly what you implied, though. His scope didnt look like yours though. He had not removed his knobs altogether.

 

[ewoaf]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Al Nyhus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> hydro556:
The white 'knobs' you saw are actually Delrin screws that bear against the erector tube opposite of the w/e adjustments. They stabilize the erector tube assy. and help ensure the erector tube remains in the exact same position after each shot.

Testing has shown that there can be up to .020 (at 100 yds.) of reticle shift. At the current level of BR competition, an extra .020 on your five shot/five group aggregate or the one .0625 'X' dot you miss in Score shooting will make a hero into a zero at the end of the day. It's just that competitive.

Other approaches are to remove the w/e adjustments completely and epoxy the erector tube into the scope main tube. External adjustments assys. are then used to make w/e changes. Think of the old Unertyl setups...but brought into the 21st. century with mfg. techniques and materials.

I have a 'frozen' Sightron set up exactly this way and wil be wringing it out in the next week or two.

The hard fact is: scopes move their p.o.i., no matter what the brand. That most people don't ever see this is because the accuracy of their gun doesn't let this show through. In a .5" gun, nobody can tell .020 of scope error, believe me.

It's just the evolution of the game....we leave no stone unturned when we look for every weak spot in the chain, that's a fact.

The new March scopes have been designed internally to get around this issue. Time will tell if they deliver on the promise..initial reports are promising, though.

Here's a pic of my setup just to give you an idea.

Hopes this clarifies things a bit. -Al

</div></div>

i dont care who you are, that's just bad ass

 

[Al Nyhus]

Re: Sightron scopes and Zero retention.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Al- The little thing-a0majiggies this guy had were white plastic devices that stuck out probably 3/4" from the tube. I am sure they are doing exactly what you implied, though. His scope didnt look like yours though. He had not removed his knobs altogether. </div></div>

The Delrin screw modification keeps the standard w/e adjustments in place. The w/e is adjusted in the normal manner and the Delrin screws are then snugged up against the erector tube to stabilize it. This is also a good setup and many BR matches have been won over the past several years with this style of modification. It doesn't address the pivoting gimble joint at the rear of the erector which is where many of the problems happen. Cecil Tucker also has a modification that places a very heavy coil spring in an external housing that loads the erector tube along with a stabilizer mod. for the tube internally.

The vast majority of guys are still using and winning with out-of-the-box scopes (Sightron, Weaver, Leupold, NightForce). It all depends on what you're working with/on and where you're finding the weak spots to be in your individual program.

Hope this helps explain things a bit better. -Al