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Gunsmithing Small business question

yourshoesareuntied

Private
Minuteman
May 13, 2009
27
0
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Small business question

I am starting a home based firearm coating service, and was wondering how some of you out there that have been doing this as a business would cover yourself on a possible situation. Say you DuraCoat a customers firearm, or park a shotgun barrel everything goes just as it should and you deliver a good product to your customer and a few weeks later your customer contacts you and states that his firearm no longer shoots as tight as it did or some equivalent complaint. What sort of customer terms and conditions language would you use? If your willing to share…
 
Re: Small business question

You are seeking legal advice via the internet...bad idea. Obtain proper legal counsel.

Do you have a valid FFL?
 
Re: Small business question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are seeking legal advice via the internet...bad idea. Obtain proper legal counsel.

Do you have a valid FFL? </div></div>

+1

Even smiths need an FFL.

And an insurance policy never killed anyone either...
 
Re: Small business question

Not asking a legal question, its not something I want to take to a courtroom, just a customer service question. No FFL yet, just in developing/dreaming stages looks like I need a dealer/gunsmith type FFL, a lot of arguments on this though. But it will be sorted out soon. I really didn’t want this to turn into a FFL argument (seems to get thick on other threads) just wanted Customer service advice.
 
Re: Small business question

Personally before I was worried about doing bad work, and pissing a customer off, I would certainly want to be on the right side of the law. For coating firearms you will absolutely need an FFL, and in some cases you might even require a manufacture's license.

Secondly, your question is vague and open-ended. There would need to be circumstances surrounding the incident that may or may not make you liable for any damage to the firearm when it was in your care.

Thirdly, if you question is truly based in customer service, I am curious why you are already trying to find wording to make you less liable. Don't you want to take care of your customers? Don't you want to ensure they are happy with the job you do? Sounds like you are already concerned about issues with your work?
 
Re: Small business question

Well this is not what I expected here with this website, your being rude and making bad assumptions. I want to go into business for myself, I was talking to my family about my ideas and one of my sibs asked what I would do if that happened… my answer was “Well I don’t know it never crossed my mind” I thought maybe I could ask some gun smiths that’s been doing it a while how they would handle that. Anyway this has been a disappointing source for advise..

Sorry if the question was to vague and open ended I’ve lost interest in clearing it up at this point.

Good luck to you all in all your future ventures.
 
Re: Small business question

Sorry you took my post as rude. It certainly wasn't intended to be so. It was intended to be based in reality though. That is why I started off with the FFL thing. If you have a customer who is less than satisfied with your work, whether they are right or wrong, and you can't find resolution, you can damn well bet they will be the ones phoning the ATF reporting you.

As to the base of your question, all I could think about is if I sent you a firearm to coat, and when I got it back it wouldn't shoot the same as before. I would be asking you a ton of questions. I would be pissed if you just simply stated some piece of rehearsed script. In addition, if you are looking for some kind of waiver to present to customers before the fact, in my opinion I would never use a service who told me upfront that they would not be responsible for any damage to my item while it was in their possesion.

Outside of all that, I think having some kind of insurance is the best way to go, to cover your ass if there is some kind of problem, because that is part of being in business.

YMMV, but your final response here leaves me wondering how you would handle a situation like that, and how you would handle being grilled online when the pissed customer started to slander you online all over forums exactly like this? How you handle a complaint will mean more than how you take care of the happy people.

Dave
 
Re: Small business question

A question that needs to be asked, is "How did it shoot before?...and can that capability be verified after the fact? Since in most instances it can't be, then liability insurance is a must, as well as Sear's guarantee of "Customer satisfaction or your money back"...with liability limited to a full refund. JMHO
 
Re: Small business question

The question that comes to my mind is this: If all you did was to disassemble, coat and reassemble the firearm CORRECTLY then the performance of the firearm should not be of question. I have Parkerized, DuraCoated, Norrels Moly and Ceracoated numerous firearms and never has the function, accuracy or safety of the firearm ever been in question. I will admit when I was just starting to refinish I occasionally got the coating a touch thick which caused function issues and had to remove a little of the coating on slide rails or similar. But that was dealt with when I reassembled the firearm. That went away as my technique improved and on very tightly fitted componets they are masked.
I could see a function/accuracy issue if you were careless in any part of the process i.e. improperly plugging a barrel prior to blasting and frosting a chamber or muzzle, improper/damage on reassembly etc. If that is the case you are then 100% liable for the repercussions and only you can figure out how to deal with the customer.
The easist way to deal with customer complaints is ensure they dont happen in the first place. Turn out the absolute best product you can and strive to make every job better than the last one.
If that is something you cannot do, then you are in the wrong business.
 
Re: Small business question

Thanks for helping turn this back around, I do appreciate that. I refuse to defend myself or argue with a person on the internet. I mean really… were could it go, I’m good face to face but the internet allows people to say whatever they wish, for that matter my defense could be whatever I wished it to be truth or fiction.

My concern was as one of the more recent post alluded to, if I did everything correctly and returned a good product and I was accused of affecting a customers groups by a ¼” at a hundred yards… what then. I guess this must not happen and is not an issue if truly high quality work is leaving the shop. Its very exciting to watch peoples response to products like DuraCoat they get so stoked, and I have no doubt they will be even more so when they pick up their goods. As for the FFL it will be filed ASAP.

I could be over thinking it and it may have made my question sound a bit off. Typing a message doesn’t allow for clarification until confusion has set in.
 
Re: Small business question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are seeking legal advice via the internet...bad idea. Obtain proper legal counsel.

Do you have a valid FFL? </div></div>

+1

Even smiths need an FFL.

And an insurance policy never killed anyone either... </div></div>
This is true but also not correct for the person asking the question. If you are only painting the gun then you do not need an FFL. If you take anything off the gun or apart by any means then yes you need an FFL. If you only painted the gun then I would take the loss of a pissed off customer because paint is not going to change the way it shoots. You would need the FFL if you are painting guns from another state.
 
Re: Small business question

<span style="font-weight: bold">I would suggest that you do some research on the ATF web site. You are not understanding what does and does not require an FFL.</span>

[/quote]
This is true but also not correct for the person asking the question. <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="color: #000099">If you are only painting the gun then you do not need an FFL.</span> </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">What you are doing to the gun has zero to do with needing an FFL or not. It is about possession.
</span>

If you take anything off the gun or apart by any means then yes you need an FFL.

If you only painted the gun then I would take the loss of a pissed off customer because paint is not going to change the way it shoots. You would need the FFL if you are painting guns from another state. [/quote]
 
Re: Small business question

Coating the gun could and would definitely change the accuracy of the gun. One grain of powder is enough to make my groupings go from 1.2" down to .1". Coating it could easily change the frequency harmonics which would make them have to find the right combination for the gun all over again.

As for customers complaining and protecting yourself. I don't think anyone that jumped down your throat has ever owned a business. You will always find customers complain for no reason what-so-ever. Unfortunately some of the time you will find there is nothing you can do to make your customer happy, except give them a ton of money.
 
Re: Small business question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are seeking legal advice via the internet...bad idea. Obtain proper legal counsel.

Do you have a valid FFL? </div></div>

+1

Even smiths need an FFL.

And an insurance policy never killed anyone either... </div></div>
This is true but also not correct for the person asking the question. If you are only painting the gun then you do not need an FFL. If you take anything off the gun or apart by any means then yes you need an FFL. If you only painted the gun then I would take the loss of a pissed off customer because paint is not going to change the way it shoots. You would need the FFL if you are painting guns from another state. </div></div>


So your saying a gun store owner does not need a FFL since they do not remove anything from a gun?

Anyone taking a receiver into their possession needs a FFL.
 
Re: Small business question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So your saying a gun store owner does not need a FFL since they do not remove anything from a gun?

Anyone taking a receiver into their possession needs a FFL.</div></div>

Part one of this qoute is incorrect.

This may help clarify when a FFL is required. It is plagerized from the ATF website:

<span style="font-style: italic">Authority: 5 U.S.C. 552(a); 18 U.S.C. 847, 921–930; 44 U.S.C. 3504(h).


(c) Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a <span style="text-decoration: underline">regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms</span>, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

(d) Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a <span style="text-decoration: underline">regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit,</span> but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;</span>

So the defining factor if a FFL is required is the fact of being engaged in 1-regulary occurring, 2-for profit, business.

Part two of the qoute is correct if you are engaged as a for profit business.
Best to CYA if you are going to retain custody of any serialized component of a firearm and get your FFL.


I would suggest if you have any questions to contact the BATF. They have always been helpful when I have had questions but I do e-mail them as opposed to a phone call. Always a good idea to have documentation.

Here is a link to the PDF code of regulations:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Read it, learn it, live it.

I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY!
But I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
grin.gif


As far as the earlier post on coating changing the harmonics or having any effect on the performance/accuracy of a firearm I would like to see tangible evidence of such. If it is CORRECTLY performed I do not see how it could be detrimental. Not arguing that it is not possible but I am curious as to how. The weight added to a barrel is negligible.

It is true there will be customers that no matter what you do for them, they will not be happy.
But your best defense for those types is to ensure you do the absolute best quality work possible and to do the work correctly. That way you have solidified your position if a question arises. Very often if encountered with a question of the work performed and you have your ducks in a row you really dont give the customer a legitmate leg to stand on. Keep the manufacturers product and application documentation handy.
After you have been in business for a while you will begin to get a feel for those types beforehand and to tell you the truth, I try to steer clear of them. That $200.00 your going to get from them sometimes is not worth the aggrevation of dealing with them.

Is the customer always right?
Absolutely not, but they are ALWAYS the customer.

Every customer brings happiness to a business.
Some when they walk through the door.
Others when they walk out of the door.

Good luck with your business-it's a big step and sometimes a spooky step.
 
Re: Small business question

You can definitely hurt the accuracy of a rifle with surface prep and finish, especially a build-up finish, which most are.

1) You can damage the crown by sticking something in it to protect the bore.
2) Sand blasting the crown edge, or dinging it in the cabinet.
3) Getting your coating into the muzzle or crown.
4) Sand blasting or getting your coating into the chamber area.
5) Coating too thick on bolt nose causing contact with the barrel in the counterbore.

To list a few. Anyone doing this work needs to know they're way around the firearm and how to protect it.

To the original poster, If you know what you are doing, you will know when a complaint is unwarranted, and should be able to prove it.
 
Re: Small business question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ARShuter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are seeking legal advice via the internet...bad idea. Obtain proper legal counsel.

Do you have a valid FFL? </div></div>

+1

Even smiths need an FFL.

And an insurance policy never killed anyone either... </div></div>
This is true but also not correct for the person asking the question. If you are only painting the gun then you do not need an FFL. If you take anything off the gun or apart by any means then yes you need an FFL. If you only painted the gun then I would take the loss of a pissed off customer because paint is not going to change the way it shoots. You would need the FFL if you are painting guns from another state. </div></div>


So your saying a gun store owner does not need a FFL since they do not remove anything from a gun?

Anyone taking a receiver into their possession needs a FFL. </div></div>
Plus a person painting the gun is not trying to sell the gun so your question on the gun store is not even close to the same context. So if you borrow a hunting rifle and now have taken the receiver into possession does it mean you need an FFL to use another person's gun?
 
Re: Small business question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if you borrow a hunting rifle and now have taken the receiver into possession does it mean you need an FFL to use another person's gun</div></div>

No, because you are not doing it for profit on a regular basis.

And as AZShooter alluded to, if the work is performed CORRECTLY you should have no issue.
 
Re: Small business question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BPTactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if you borrow a hunting rifle and now have taken the receiver into possession does it mean you need an FFL to use another person's gun</div></div>

No, because you are not doing it for profit on a regular basis </div></div>
So what if a person does it still for profit but not on a regular basis? What decides how much time or what amount of profit decides the change? I agree its best to have an FFL because of the grey areas they leave open without direct answer.
 
Re: Small business question

strange,

The requirement for an FFL lies deeply with intent. Meaning if you are doing it with the intent to make a profit, then it requires an FFL. I would say as soon as you decide you are going to make a business out of it, and aren't just doing it occassionally for a friend, then you probably better get an FFL. Even if you are on the right side of things, it can get spending trying to prove your innocence once you have gained the attention of the ATF. This is why I would make sure to have one just incase you do get an asshole customer that is intent on causing troubles for you, whether you are right or not. The ATF will likely investigate a 'business' when they are called in on.

Dave
 
Re: Small business question


(d) Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a <span style="font-weight: bold">regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit,</span> but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

The answer lies in the bold text.
But I agree with the standpoint of if you a charging for your services you are probably wise to have the FFL.
Especially given the political climate we are in where it seems everywhere you look most anything firearm related is being demonized.
 
Re: Small business question

but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

This is the part I don't get. Even if it is occasional you are still making a profit so they talk from both sides once again making it go either way. If you are working on triggers and doing barrels then you are doing gunsmithing. I just wish they would make it more clear.
 
Re: Small business question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

This is the part I don't get. Even if it is occasional you are still making a profit so they talk from both sides once again making it go either way. If you are working on triggers and doing barrels then you are doing gunsmithing. <span style="font-weight: bold">I just wish they would make it more clear.</span></div></div>

Hahaha, me too!!

The best thing to do if you are in question is to get a formal letter with their opinion in writing. It has been my experience that you can get different answers from different agents. At the end of the day IMHO it isn't worth saving the $$$ up front if you ever need to 'lawyer up'.
 
Re: Small business question

The FFL needed is 200.00 for the first three years then 90.00 for each three year term after the first three. Its not that big of a cost... one or two projects will better then pay for it. Then its an added service that could be added to the biz, other platforms could be ordered for customers and the bennys of being able to get an occasional good deal for your self.

66.00 per year for the first three years
30.00 per year after that
 
Re: Small business question

Just skimming over this 99% of the questions/concerns are an experience related item. If you lack the experience you need to get it first, then take on work under your own flag.

Experience will teach you that ceracoating an action won't bother accuracy one bit. Experience will teach you to gauge customers. There are those who are pleasant to deal with and those you'd rather politely steer clear of.

Do the best work you can and stand behind it.

What happens when a new water pump leaks? A new furnace blows cold air? The TV doesn't work. . .

How you manage problems defines your business. 1st step is don't make mistakes. Never happen but try anyway.
 
Re: Small business question

Who is talking about coating just an action?
 
Re: Small business question

I know this off the main subject, but it has been discussed here, so I'll go ahead: changing the POI, or overall accuracy by coating a barrel/and or receiver (better or worse). Harmonics? I think it is possible. Heat retention, i.e. a insulation effect, possible also. I have no data but wouldn't discount it as being very possible. Has anyone done any actual testing?
 
Re: Small business question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who is talking about coating just an action? </div></div>



<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">. . .Say you DuraCoat a customers firearm. . .</span></span></span></span>

Sorry. I guess I should have said "firearm."