Does anybody shoot a 45-120? Are you shooting smokeless? I have tried a few 405 grain loads. I want a load that fills the case. I have shot it for years with black powder, but I want to try smokeless.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
You need to tell us more about the rifle, specifically the action and DOM. If it's a classic "old school" rifle built 100 years ago you should NOT be shoot smokeless in it.
That being said 4895 is a pretty good powder in the 45-70 and 458 Win Mag. Hodgdon lists data for it.
The load range is H4895, 405gr cast lead bullet, 58-64gr of powder is what's listed.
You need to tell us more about the rifle, specifically the action and DOM. If it's a classic "old school" rifle built 100 years ago you should NOT be shoot smokeless in it.
That being said 4895 is a pretty good powder in the 45-70 and 458 Win Mag. Hodgdon lists data for it.
The load range is H4895, 405gr cast lead bullet, 58-64gr of powder is what's listed.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
I shoot a 45-120 Handi Rifle and it does about 458 Lott speeds.
I shoot a 45-120 Handi Rifle and it does about 458 Lott speeds.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
I stay at or under 40k PSI as well.
I stay at or under 40k PSI as well.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
It's an "Old Reliable" from the old days. 34" octagon pipe, veneer sights, crescent butt.
A old shooter told me you can load them up pretty hot because of the straight case. It won't build pressure. He shoots 105 grains od AA 8700. He shoots a 500 grain cast bullet.
It's an "Old Reliable" from the old days. 34" octagon pipe, veneer sights, crescent butt.
A old shooter told me you can load them up pretty hot because of the straight case. It won't build pressure. He shoots 105 grains od AA 8700. He shoots a 500 grain cast bullet.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
That's BS that a round won't build pressure because it's straight walled. It may not build pressure as fast or in the same manner as a 22-250, but it will sure a heck blow a rifle apart if you fill up the case with smokeless.
BP doesn't burn like smokeless does, that idea he gave you works well for BP.
I'd be wary of just how hot you want to load it, shooting cast bullets with good lube will help you keep the pressures low.
If you decide you want to shoot jacketed bullets and go for the gusto on the velocity you might very well end up wearing that rifle, please be careful.
That's BS that a round won't build pressure because it's straight walled. It may not build pressure as fast or in the same manner as a 22-250, but it will sure a heck blow a rifle apart if you fill up the case with smokeless.
BP doesn't burn like smokeless does, that idea he gave you works well for BP.
I'd be wary of just how hot you want to load it, shooting cast bullets with good lube will help you keep the pressures low.
If you decide you want to shoot jacketed bullets and go for the gusto on the velocity you might very well end up wearing that rifle, please be careful.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
I hear you man.
I was just thinking when we are in Horse Camp, and I want to shoot a little, smokeless would be nice. That way when I stretch it out across the canyon, I can call my own hits. Especially when I'm alone. That way I can get the sights adjusted to hit rock chucks at 400 yards. And I do not have to clean it as much.
I hear you man.
I was just thinking when we are in Horse Camp, and I want to shoot a little, smokeless would be nice. That way when I stretch it out across the canyon, I can call my own hits. Especially when I'm alone. That way I can get the sights adjusted to hit rock chucks at 400 yards. And I do not have to clean it as much.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
If that's your goal, there's a way to do it. I'd suggest looking at Hodgdon's site and checking out the loads they have for 45-120 Sharps.
Keep the pressures below 35ksi, even if you think it's OK to go hotter. I know the temptation to shoot harder, but just keep in mind that thing is more than likely built right around the time the Bessemer process was really starting to be refined...
My dad just got a Martini-Henry in 45-577, it's a really cool rifle, and some people think you can load it with smokeless, but his mindset (and I agree completely) was this:
"It was designed for BP pressure before people even invented smokeless. It killed people at hundreds of yards, and I have other stuff that will reach further. If I want to shoot that far, with something flat and fast, get the right tool from the shed. Don't try to plow the field with a garden trowel"
BTW, can you snap a pic of your rifle? I'd just like to see it, those old bastards are really cool. I dunno why, but maybe that's why I keep a CR license
If that's your goal, there's a way to do it. I'd suggest looking at Hodgdon's site and checking out the loads they have for 45-120 Sharps.
Keep the pressures below 35ksi, even if you think it's OK to go hotter. I know the temptation to shoot harder, but just keep in mind that thing is more than likely built right around the time the Bessemer process was really starting to be refined...
My dad just got a Martini-Henry in 45-577, it's a really cool rifle, and some people think you can load it with smokeless, but his mindset (and I agree completely) was this:
"It was designed for BP pressure before people even invented smokeless. It killed people at hundreds of yards, and I have other stuff that will reach further. If I want to shoot that far, with something flat and fast, get the right tool from the shed. Don't try to plow the field with a garden trowel"
BTW, can you snap a pic of your rifle? I'd just like to see it, those old bastards are really cool. I dunno why, but maybe that's why I keep a CR license
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
28,000 PSI is about max SAMMI standard on loads intended for ther old trapdoor Springfield, and ORIGINAL Sharps actions.
I'd say keep it around 20-25K psi, and you should be fine, assuming the rifle is mechanically safe and sound as determined by a qualified gunsmith. Quickload will help in pressure calcs.
28,000 PSI is about max SAMMI standard on loads intended for ther old trapdoor Springfield, and ORIGINAL Sharps actions.
I'd say keep it around 20-25K psi, and you should be fine, assuming the rifle is mechanically safe and sound as determined by a qualified gunsmith. Quickload will help in pressure calcs.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
Those are some gorgeous old tools, congratulations on them.
MtM - good call on the pressure level, I wasn't thinking trapdoor actions at all.
It'd be a real shame to hurt either of those old girls, and most likely get injured doing it.
Those are some gorgeous old tools, congratulations on them.
MtM - good call on the pressure level, I wasn't thinking trapdoor actions at all.
It'd be a real shame to hurt either of those old girls, and most likely get injured doing it.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
They are not 'Trapdoor' actions. The Sharps is a falling block, and the Winchester has 2 vertical locking lugs, in the action.
They are not 'Trapdoor' actions. The Sharps is a falling block, and the Winchester has 2 vertical locking lugs, in the action.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Too Tall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are not 'Trapdoor' actions. The Sharps is a falling block, and the Winchester has 2 vertical locking lugs, in the action. </div></div>
Is it an original sharps though? The 28ksi hard limit that MtM noted would still apply.
Anything made past about 1900 would be OK to 35ksi max. I wouldn't shoot a lot of those rounds though, a more realistic operating limit is more in the upper 20's for shooting
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Too Tall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are not 'Trapdoor' actions. The Sharps is a falling block, and the Winchester has 2 vertical locking lugs, in the action. </div></div>
Is it an original sharps though? The 28ksi hard limit that MtM noted would still apply.
Anything made past about 1900 would be OK to 35ksi max. I wouldn't shoot a lot of those rounds though, a more realistic operating limit is more in the upper 20's for shooting
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
Go to the website of the Cast Bullet Association and ask that question. There are a lot of the old farts there that shoot the antiques and will be happy to share their experience.
Go to the website of the Cast Bullet Association and ask that question. There are a lot of the old farts there that shoot the antiques and will be happy to share their experience.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
X-2, be VERY CAREFULL with smokeless in those old black powder carts.
Look at Hog. #5744 powder
Respectfully,
LG
X-2, be VERY CAREFULL with smokeless in those old black powder carts.
Look at Hog. #5744 powder
Respectfully,
LG
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
Can I get a full case with 5744? So no hang fire?
Can I get a full case with 5744? So no hang fire?
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=6738.0 might give you a little info.
As with any old gun, be very wary of the loads.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=6738.0 might give you a little info.
As with any old gun, be very wary of the loads.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
I have to use a filler even with my 458 Lott level loads.
I have to use a filler even with my 458 Lott level loads.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
Call'em and ask foryourownself........
I don't use "white" in my Sharps, These(.45-70 & .45-110)see BP only.
Respectfully,
LG
Call'em and ask foryourownself........
I don't use "white" in my Sharps, These(.45-70 & .45-110)see BP only.
Respectfully,
LG
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
I have a 45-110 sharps and shoot black powder as this is how it was intended to be used. I have tried different replicas but with no better results but never smokeless. I have always heard 30,000 psi is the number to stay under. I dont have any recipes however very few powders will fill that case. Guys use cream of wheat or dryer lint to fill the case up and keep the powder against the primer. Try looking on www.castboolit.com website forum as these guys are all about the old guns. hope this helps.
I have a 45-110 sharps and shoot black powder as this is how it was intended to be used. I have tried different replicas but with no better results but never smokeless. I have always heard 30,000 psi is the number to stay under. I dont have any recipes however very few powders will fill that case. Guys use cream of wheat or dryer lint to fill the case up and keep the powder against the primer. Try looking on www.castboolit.com website forum as these guys are all about the old guns. hope this helps.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
Probably the best place to ask this question is @ Shiloh Sharps forums.
By the pics it is probably a newer reproduction as it is in way to good of shape to be an original Sharps, but I could be wrong. Possibly a Shiloh or CSharps, which is a damn good thing BTW. FWIW, CSharps still uses the "Old Reliable" on their Badger barrels, and when Shiloh and CSharps were partners (so to speak) I believe those rifles had "Old Reliable" on the barrels also. When I said newer reproduction, I meant since the 70s. They are pretty strong, but not like a modern design.
There was a good bit of info about using a large amount of slow powders (the 8700 you mentioned) is not a good thing. Better minds than mine say bad juju. All I can do is say go to the website I mentioned and ask. Keep in mind that there is a lot of air space in that case unless you are using the "one true powder".
All of my rambling aside, just how much recoil do you need? I shoot these things a lot, and my rifles are much heavier than yours, and there comes a time during each range session that I say it is enough for one day. That cresent butt of yours just begs to be shot off the chin with a 540 grain @ 1350 fps!
Hell yeah you can get a case full of 5744, and I bet it won't hangfire. You'll only get one chance at it, so make sure you film it. Not really trying to be a smart ass, but don't even think that way please. Go to Shiloh Sharps website. These guys live for BPCR's and what it takes to make them shoot.
Good luck.
Probably the best place to ask this question is @ Shiloh Sharps forums.
By the pics it is probably a newer reproduction as it is in way to good of shape to be an original Sharps, but I could be wrong. Possibly a Shiloh or CSharps, which is a damn good thing BTW. FWIW, CSharps still uses the "Old Reliable" on their Badger barrels, and when Shiloh and CSharps were partners (so to speak) I believe those rifles had "Old Reliable" on the barrels also. When I said newer reproduction, I meant since the 70s. They are pretty strong, but not like a modern design.
There was a good bit of info about using a large amount of slow powders (the 8700 you mentioned) is not a good thing. Better minds than mine say bad juju. All I can do is say go to the website I mentioned and ask. Keep in mind that there is a lot of air space in that case unless you are using the "one true powder".
All of my rambling aside, just how much recoil do you need? I shoot these things a lot, and my rifles are much heavier than yours, and there comes a time during each range session that I say it is enough for one day. That cresent butt of yours just begs to be shot off the chin with a 540 grain @ 1350 fps!
Hell yeah you can get a case full of 5744, and I bet it won't hangfire. You'll only get one chance at it, so make sure you film it. Not really trying to be a smart ass, but don't even think that way please. Go to Shiloh Sharps website. These guys live for BPCR's and what it takes to make them shoot.
Good luck.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
I think I'll just stay with Black Powder, after reading all this.
I think I'll just stay with Black Powder, after reading all this.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
Very good idea, my friend, very good idea.
Hey, it is the "one true way" after all. White powder and those copper patched bullets have only created problems you know!
Very good idea, my friend, very good idea.
Hey, it is the "one true way" after all. White powder and those copper patched bullets have only created problems you know!
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
AS my user name implyes i shoot 45-120, and I shoot it alot. That big case is more for black powder. If this is an original rifle you should really use black or pyrodex, less pressure. I would do a chamber cast to make sure it is a 120, because the sharps factory never made one that large. 45-110 was the largest from the old factory. with that said here are the loads I use in my C.Sharps 30" No1 heavy barreled rifle.
115gr FG black
Fed Mag primer
535gr Lyman postell bullet- or 600gr Paper-Patched
Bell cases
SMOKLESS..
535 Postell bullet
26-29gr Trailboss
54-60gr H4895
42-46.5gr H4198
Hope this helps you out,BTW I could never get mine to shoot light bullets. After I went past 500gr the groups started to close up. With my BP loads I can keep it around 1-1 1/2 moa out to the Ram target at 500 meters. make sure you use a blow tube with the bP after each shot. 1 or 2 long breaths is all i ever needed. Good luck.
AS my user name implyes i shoot 45-120, and I shoot it alot. That big case is more for black powder. If this is an original rifle you should really use black or pyrodex, less pressure. I would do a chamber cast to make sure it is a 120, because the sharps factory never made one that large. 45-110 was the largest from the old factory. with that said here are the loads I use in my C.Sharps 30" No1 heavy barreled rifle.
115gr FG black
Fed Mag primer
535gr Lyman postell bullet- or 600gr Paper-Patched
Bell cases
SMOKLESS..
535 Postell bullet
26-29gr Trailboss
54-60gr H4895
42-46.5gr H4198
Hope this helps you out,BTW I could never get mine to shoot light bullets. After I went past 500gr the groups started to close up. With my BP loads I can keep it around 1-1 1/2 moa out to the Ram target at 500 meters. make sure you use a blow tube with the bP after each shot. 1 or 2 long breaths is all i ever needed. Good luck.
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
OR45120,
Do you ever mess with the 45/90? FIL has an original Win Lever gun that he wants to go smokeless with. He's skeered that he'll miss something and the gun will rust away between seasons. Can't say that I blame him it's a nice stick.
Cheers,
Doc
OR45120,
Do you ever mess with the 45/90? FIL has an original Win Lever gun that he wants to go smokeless with. He's skeered that he'll miss something and the gun will rust away between seasons. Can't say that I blame him it's a nice stick.
Cheers,
Doc
Re: Smokeless load for a 45-120
If the Win is in GOOD condition its good to go with smokless. Black is better for its age. I would give Trailboss a try. It was developed for older straight walled cases, such nas 45-70 or larger.
Use the 45-70 Trapdoor load data. Go with a 405gr FLAT NOSE bullet. With 12-13gr Trailboss, or27-31gr H-4198 with same bullet.
If you haven't allready SLUG your barrel, so you can use the correct size die. Don't be supprised if the barrel is larger then .457.If it is its just a simple matter of buying the right size die. Idealy you just want to lube the bullet, not size it down if at all possible. If this helps I use SPG lube for all my cast bullets. It works fine as long as you dont push them faster than about 1600 FPS.
Her's my load for my 45-90 out of my Remington Rolling Block. Its a rebarreled 1879 Argentina.
Starlind brass 2.40 OAL
Goex Cartridge
535 Postell bullet
SPG lube
.060 wad
Fed 215 LRM primer
73.0gr powder,wieghed(that postell takes up alot of room in case)
I tipicly get around 1 1/2 to 2 MOA at 100yds with iron sights.
Almost for got DO NOT USE 45-70 AMMO in that rifle, It will burn up the end of the chamber. There is .030 difference in ctg length,and that WILL ruin the barrel. If you need any other advice, i'm usually on this sight daily. Good luck and have fun. Old guns are ment to be shot also.
If the Win is in GOOD condition its good to go with smokless. Black is better for its age. I would give Trailboss a try. It was developed for older straight walled cases, such nas 45-70 or larger.
Use the 45-70 Trapdoor load data. Go with a 405gr FLAT NOSE bullet. With 12-13gr Trailboss, or27-31gr H-4198 with same bullet.
If you haven't allready SLUG your barrel, so you can use the correct size die. Don't be supprised if the barrel is larger then .457.If it is its just a simple matter of buying the right size die. Idealy you just want to lube the bullet, not size it down if at all possible. If this helps I use SPG lube for all my cast bullets. It works fine as long as you dont push them faster than about 1600 FPS.
Her's my load for my 45-90 out of my Remington Rolling Block. Its a rebarreled 1879 Argentina.
Starlind brass 2.40 OAL
Goex Cartridge
535 Postell bullet
SPG lube
.060 wad
Fed 215 LRM primer
73.0gr powder,wieghed(that postell takes up alot of room in case)
I tipicly get around 1 1/2 to 2 MOA at 100yds with iron sights.
Almost for got DO NOT USE 45-70 AMMO in that rifle, It will burn up the end of the chamber. There is .030 difference in ctg length,and that WILL ruin the barrel. If you need any other advice, i'm usually on this sight daily. Good luck and have fun. Old guns are ment to be shot also.
