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Fieldcraft Snake Bite

SnkBit

SnkBit

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 10, 2009
212
30
Amarillo, TX.
Ok, so I've been reading all the survival topics on here and it got me to thinking.

Last year I went with some friends on a hog hunt. We had to hike back about eleven miles from motor vehicle access. As we were scouting the area we planned to hunt the next morning I slipped on a loose slope at the top of a cliff. As I came to rest on my ass, legs spread, I noticed the very large, very angry Diamondback Rattlesnake between them. I drew my sidearm as I scrambled to distance myself from the critter. I refrained from shooting and ultimately killed it with my buddies K-bar. This was about a six foot snake with fourteen good buttons on him and a few more missing. The buttons, once removed, are the same length as my Kershaw Whirlwind in its folded position.

My question being, What should a guy do if he is bitten in a situation such as this? That is a hell of a long hike through brush and other elements without the added hassle of being bitten. What would be the best course of action to ensure survival?
 
Re: Snake Bite

There is a small kit that comes in a yellow plastic box called "Extractor". You need to read up on how to use it and keep it in your day pack. It's the 1990s version of a better snake bite kit. I have carried one for several years. They work pretty well on bee stings too.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They work pretty well on bee stings too. </div></div>

Rattlesnake bite > bee sting.

You would think that it would be a bit more potent given this factor.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a small kit that comes in a yellow plastic box called "Extractor". You need to read up on how to use it and keep it in your day pack. It's the 1990s version of a better snake bite kit. I have carried one for several years. They work pretty well on bee stings too. </div></div>

Ditto. I'll get yall a picture tomorrow night.
grin.gif


I would love to hear a medical professionals opinion on what to do in your scenario. I would assume it would be best for the victim to lie still and let his buddies haul ass for 13 miles and send back a chopper. ????
 
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I have the Extractor also but thankfully haven't had to use it. I googled this to find some links and stumbled across something I've never heard of before. There have been studies done in other countries involving shock therapy to the bite area with positive results. Although it might not be too practical in the field it's an interesting read none the less.

http://venomshock.wikidot.com/
 
Re: Snake Bite

I've heard the old "cut and suck out the venom" method of extraction is no longer recommended. I think your best option would be prayer and a quick way out.
 
Re: Snake Bite

For one, if bitten on an extremity, try to keep that extremity elevated above the heart; limit motion. Do not suck, cut or apply ice to the bite. I have heard "light" torniquets or "constricting bands" may be of some benefit for rattlesnakes - depending on how long it will take to get to a decent medical facility (you don't want to completely cut off circulation though, and this applies to rattlesnakes, with some pit vipers you don't want to apply a band because it will increased the rate of local tissue destruction). The good news is in Texas, there is plenty of Cro-Fab (antivenom which works for rattlesnake, copperheads, cottonmouths & water moccasins) - do NOT "sit and wait it out" - the goal is to get anti-venom within 6 hours of bite. The ERs all have protocols about when to administer the appropriate amount of anti-venom based on bloodwork and urinalysis. The bad news is the stuff is wickedly expensive - like $1500/vial x 4-10+ vials. And, the antivenom itself can cause anaphylaxis or serum sickness.
Edit: June-July is mating season - be esp. careful. Someone here posted the "mating dance" a while ago - very cool.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: locked&loaded</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think your best option would be prayer and a quick way out. </div></div>

LMAO
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For one, if bitten on an extremity, try to keep that extremity elevated above the heart; limit motion. Do not suck, cut or apply ice to the bite. I have heard "light" torniquets or "constricting bands" may be of some benefit for rattlesnakes - depending on how long it will take to get to a decent medical facility (you don't want to completely cut off circulation though, and this applies to rattlesnakes, with some pit vipers you don't want to apply a band because it will increased the rate of local tissue destruction). The good news is in Texas, there is plenty of Cro-Fab (antivenom which works for rattlesnake, copperheads, cottonmouths & water moccasins) - do NOT "sit and wait it out" - the goal is to get anti-venom within 6 hours of bite. The ERs all have protocols about when to administer the appropriate amount of anti-venom based on bloodwork and urinalysis. The bad news is the stuff is wickedly expensive - like $1500/vial x 4-10+ vials. And, the antivenom itself can cause anaphylaxis or serum sickness. </div></div>

You really should do some research before you start posting bad information. Every site I looked at said to not elevate the bite and try to keep it below the level of the heart if possible. Do not use tourniquets. Lightly wrap the bite in an elastic bandage or fabric but do not cut off circulation. Immobilize the limb with a splint and like you would a fracture. Keep calm and don't move or exercise any more than absolutely necessary. Although you do need to get medical attention so if you're by yourself you don't have much of an option there.
 
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I would think an alternative to leaving you there would be to, carry you out on a stretcher if possible. Have you lie down and try to prevent and minimalize shock. If your going to be that far from the truck you might want to purchase an ACR rescue beacon.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...en/common/search/search-box.jsp.form23&Go.x=0

That will be a faster response in the event you need to get out quick. I am surprised with the diamond backs though. Thought you would have more mojave's out there which are are more poisonous
 
Re: Snake Bite

The idea behind keeping the limb below the heart and not exercising (raising your heart rate) is to keep the venom localized and not traveling through your system.

Raising the limb will make the criculation back toward the heart easier and spread the venom faster.

A family member was bitten by a Timber Rattlesnake some years ago. He made it to a hospital fast and went through well over a dozen vials of antivenom. Fun Fun Fun.
 
Re: Snake Bite

I agree with UKD. No sucking or cutting, etc. No ice, no gasoline, no electric shocks, AC or DC. Constriction bands are risky, because most people in a bind don't know how tight. I never saw a "constriction" band applied in the field that didn't arrive in my ER as a tourniquet (same/same Ace wrap, always too tight). Splint and keep level or below heart level. None of the "I once heard" stuff works, and most findings are anecdotal.
Rapid evacuation is best, with the option of the buddies hauling ass and sending a helicopter.
The landing as described: legs spread,with an angry viper between them begs for that old joke, about "yer gonna die!"
There is a lecture on tape, by that Doctor from Texas, I can't remember his name (Red?) about Poisonous snake bites.
One point he made was that a percentage of bites are merely dry bites. How do you know? No significant pain. A heavily envenomed bite results in severe pain along with the discoloration and swelling. Pain is a hallmark. Merely having two bite holes is not enough to go on. In the field, little to no significant pain means less urgency.
Another point: Lab tests. A retrospective study of all tests done in the presence of snake bite, to see if there was any consistently abnormal lab value revealed only one, and it was often concomitant (occurred at the same time) with two other markers: The only lab value consistently abnormal was an elevated blood alcohol, often consistent with a young man, in a black t-shirt. Seriously.
What is going to happen at the hospital: many surgeons are now deeply debriding the wounds, cutting deep into the extremity, and washing out the venom from the spaces between the muscles. It is complex, and radical. Review some web sites on treatment of rattlesnake bites.
Final thought, Outdoorsmen rarely get snake bitten. They are often more aware of their surroundings, and have echoing in their minds, the admonition of their parents, to watch where you put your hands and feet, watch when stepping over logs, Watch where you take a dump, or set up camp, or flop down to take a trail break, etc. Of course an accident like falling is different.
I noticed in our Elk Camp, that the other men use something they call "Snake Bite Medicine". Taken every evening after supper sometimes with a cigar. Never had anyone bitten, so I guess it works.

Lily good to see you posting again.


 
Re: Snake Bite

I've grown up looking for snakes and avoiding the possibility of being bitten. Falling with a $3500 precision rifle in my hands suddenly changed my priorities. The last thing on my mind was snake. It was more like, DONT DROP IT DUMBASS! The Diamondbacks are usually timid and tend to retreat rather than show aggression, I just didn't give him the option when I landed on him. We have more common prairie rattlers here than anything. They are quite opposite and seem to always be on the offensive. Hopefully a situation like this won't happen again, I simply wanted to be a little better informed in the off chance it does.
 
Re: Snake Bite

Well if you had that rattle snake between your legs and it bit your balls, which one of your friends is going to volunteer to suck the poison out?



Wish I had friends like that... Yall seem close?
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SnkBit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which ever one I point my pistol at! LOL </div></div>

good one!
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DBohn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For one, if bitten on an extremity, try to keep that extremity elevated above the heart; limit motion. Do not suck, cut or apply ice to the bite. I have heard "light" torniquets or "constricting bands" may be of some benefit for rattlesnakes - depending on how long it will take to get to a decent medical facility (you don't want to completely cut off circulation though, and this applies to rattlesnakes, with some pit vipers you don't want to apply a band because it will increased the rate of local tissue destruction). The good news is in Texas, there is plenty of Cro-Fab (antivenom which works for rattlesnake, copperheads, cottonmouths & water moccasins) - do NOT "sit and wait it out" - the goal is to get anti-venom within 6 hours of bite. The ERs all have protocols about when to administer the appropriate amount of anti-venom based on bloodwork and urinalysis. The bad news is the stuff is wickedly expensive - like $1500/vial x 4-10+ vials. And, the antivenom itself can cause anaphylaxis or serum sickness. </div></div>

You really should do some research before you start posting bad information. Every site I looked at said to not elevate the bite and try to keep it below the level of the heart if possible. Do not use tourniquets. Lightly wrap the bite in an elastic bandage or fabric but do not cut off circulation. Immobilize the limb with a splint and like you would a fracture. Keep calm and don't move or exercise any more than absolutely necessary. Although you do need to get medical attention so if you're by yourself you don't have much of an option there. </div></div>

That's a bit humorous, since UKDSlayer is a Doctor she might have a bit better idea as to how to treat this than reading websites.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carnivore</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DBohn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For one, if bitten on an extremity, try to keep that extremity elevated above the heart; limit motion. Do not suck, cut or apply ice to the bite. I have heard "light" torniquets or "constricting bands" may be of some benefit for rattlesnakes - depending on how long it will take to get to a decent medical facility (you don't want to completely cut off circulation though, and this applies to rattlesnakes, with some pit vipers you don't want to apply a band because it will increased the rate of local tissue destruction). The good news is in Texas, there is plenty of Cro-Fab (antivenom which works for rattlesnake, copperheads, cottonmouths & water moccasins) - do NOT "sit and wait it out" - the goal is to get anti-venom within 6 hours of bite. The ERs all have protocols about when to administer the appropriate amount of anti-venom based on bloodwork and urinalysis. The bad news is the stuff is wickedly expensive - like $1500/vial x 4-10+ vials. And, the antivenom itself can cause anaphylaxis or serum sickness. </div></div>

You really should do some research before you start posting bad information. Every site I looked at said to not elevate the bite and try to keep it below the level of the heart if possible. Do not use tourniquets. Lightly wrap the bite in an elastic bandage or fabric but do not cut off circulation. Immobilize the limb with a splint and like you would a fracture. Keep calm and don't move or exercise any more than absolutely necessary. Although you do need to get medical attention so if you're by yourself you don't have much of an option there. </div></div>

That's a bit humorous, since UKDSlayer is a Doctor she might have a bit better idea as to how to treat this than reading websites. </div></div>

Actually - I do stand corrected on the limb elevation. My ER manual DOES state to elevate the limb once an IV is started and treatment can begin, and especially once antivenom is administered. Logic would tend to favor decreasing arterial circulation of the venom and subsequent return centrally, but in this circumstance, its not the case because of how venom is absorbed. Sorry folks, its been a while since my ER days (fortunately); the principle being that venom travels via lymphatics and that the light "constriction" band will decrease lymphatic flow; again the idea being a light constriction over a "though shalt have no circulation tourniquet". The controversy is whether the average person understands a "constriction band" over tourniquet; since there is concern whether or not it can be done right under stress, and also once the "band" is released there would be a massive surge of venom. But the question here is what to do in the field, and the most important thing is immobilization of the extremity. If I was a distance from treatment after a bite, I would personally take the risk of loss of that extremity.
 
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Actually I have been told that the DC current from your truck battery can neutralize the venom's toxicity. Shock the area of the bite. Also was told a man grabbed an held an electric fence when snake bitten.

I have also been told to try and kill the actual snake that bit you to identify the best anti-venom if you can get to treatment.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beenjammin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have also been told to try and kill the actual snake that bit you to identify the best anti-venom if you can get to treatment.
</div></div>
If someone near you can do the deed great, but in these days of cell phone cameras a good photo does the trick.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beenjammin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I have also been told to try and kill the actual snake that bit you to identify the best anti-venom if you can get to treatment.
</div></div>
If someone near you can do the deed great, but in these days of cell phone cameras a good photo does the trick. </div></div>

True true... Was told this before any of that was available.... A cell pic is a good idea I doubt I would have thought of when bitten.
 
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Update: just read in this months Popular Mechanics that coral snake anti-venom will no longer be made, even though it is an extremely potent and fatal neurotoxin and the anti-venom was effective. The decision was made based on the fact that anti-venom is very expensive to make and do quality control ($3-5 million/batch); and since there are only about 100 bites a year and 25% of those are "dry bites" its supposedly is more cost-effective to keep all bitten individuals on supportive care (including ventilators) for a couple weeks until the venom wears off than to make the anti-venom. So remember: red-to-black, friend of Jack, red-to-yellow, kill a fellow.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">light "constriction" band will decrease lymphatic flow; again the idea being a light constriction over a "though shalt have no circulation tourniquet". \</div></div>

So a light constriction is good but full on cut-off is bad? Is that so you don't kill whatever extremity you're tying off?
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If someone near you can do the deed great, but in these days of cell phone cameras a good photo does the trick. </div></div>

It may end up being a bit of a pyrrhic victory but I would go for killing it, haha.
 
Re: Snake Bite

Re: the distance you were from vehicle access.

There is a company called SPOT that has a device and subscription program available. While it is a little chunk of cash to get into, it is a great resource and they can dispatch EMS in the event you push the 911 button. The average person doesn't need this but if you are 11 miles in or in seriously hard to navigate terrain I really can't fathom anything other than machismo being a hindrance to owning such a device.

I realize that "survival" skills are cool and all...but if you have a better resource and have exhausted all other options within the limits of patient safety, it's not a bad last resort.
 
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Those SPOTs are pretty cool. My boss used one when sailing across the ocean and we aere able to track his movement and know where he was and estimate when we needed to fly in and pick him up from the next port o call. It never missed a beat. Of course the main reason tfor him to have it was in case of emergency not for us to follow his movements which is optional. Could definitly see it being useful if going way off the beaten path.
 
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Before you go hiking or hunting in an area that is known to be inhabited by venomous snakes, I would map out the distance to the nearest hospital and work a game plan if shit hits the fan. If possible, contact the hospital and ask if they carry anti venom, as there is a chance that they might not have it. If that is the case, find the nearest hospital that does. Otherwise, you will be taking a needless trip to the hospital, only to be transferred to another. Venom works really fast, and you need to act quickly or it will literally melt your flesh
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">light "constriction" band will decrease lymphatic flow; again the idea being a light constriction over a "though shalt have no circulation tourniquet". \</div></div>

So a light constriction is good but full on cut-off is bad? Is that so you don't kill whatever extremity you're tying off? </div></div>

Yes, you pretty much got the concept. Theoretically, a light constriction band, where you can still put a finger under the wrap easily is good. You do NOT want to cut off arterial circulation - and people under stress with epi. surges tend to tie to tight, (remember even in arterial bleed direct pressure point trumps tourniquet use if limb is still attached). When in comes to applying constricting bands/"light" tourniquet, whatever you want to call it, the vessels with the flimsiest walls get closed off first - which happens to be the lymphatics and also happens to be the most common way venom is circulated back to the body.(That's good - a light wrap should be beneficial). Think of a wrap that you would use just to hold a telfa pad in place - that's about it. There's controversy over it, like I said if it was me personally bit, 1) I am a loner and may not have assistance nearby, and 2) I'm a lightweight (#110) so toxin getting in me systemically can have a quicker affect, so I personally would vote for a light band on me. **Immobilization of extremity is uniformally advocated, appears to offer more benefit than even a band**. Given I'm here in Texas many medical centers can handle bites well, have anti-venom, and can support "the venom surge" when the band is released. Bruce is an EMT in more snake-infested parts, or MDShooter (ER doc) would make a useful chime in.
 
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As to whether or not you've gotten a dry bite from a rattler:

If you're deep deep in the boonies, go ahead and start tracking the swelling. This is another indicator aside from pain and coloration that you can use to help draw a conclusion about how screwed you are. Changes in coloration to your bite area won't always happen right away, and people have different tolerances for pain, especially early on after a bite.

Undoubtedly there will be some swelling localized at the bite but as any venom spreads, generally the swelling will follow (at least with hematoxin).

In the hospital they'll typically track visible swelling by marking up your extremity at certain time intervals, say every ten or fifteen minutes. They'll take a look at the exremity, and then draw a line on you to mark the extent of the reach of the swelling. Then they'll do this over and over, usually while they run bloodwork. Once they confirm that you've been invenomated, then they'll figure out the proper treatment.

This is something you could start out in the woods if it's going to be a while before you get to help. If you keep on swelling, and other signs of invenomation come into play, you've got a problem. If the swelling stays localized, and things don't get bad then you might be lucky.

Be on the lookout for other fun stuff too after a bite, like vomiting and the shits. Rattlers can really mess you up. I'd recommend avoiding the bite 'experience'.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">light "constriction" band will decrease lymphatic flow; again the idea being a light constriction over a "though shalt have no circulation tourniquet". \</div></div>

So a light constriction is good but full on cut-off is bad? Is that so you don't kill whatever extremity you're tying off? </div></div>

Yes, you pretty much got the concept. Theoretically, a light constriction band, where you can still put a finger under the wrap easily is good. You do NOT want to cut off arterial circulation - and people under stress with epi. surges tend to tie to tight, (remember even in arterial bleed direct pressure point trumps tourniquet use if limb is still attached). When in comes to applying constricting bands/"light" tourniquet, whatever you want to call it, the vessels with the flimsiest walls get closed off first - which happens to be the lymphatics and also happens to be the most common way venom is circulated back to the body.(That's good - a light wrap should be beneficial). Think of a wrap that you would use just to hold a telfa pad in place - that's about it. There's controversy over it, like I said if it was me personally bit, 1) I am a loner and may not have assistance nearby, and 2) I'm a lightweight (#110) so toxin getting in me systemically can have a quicker affect, so I personally would vote for a light band on me. **Immobilization of extremity is uniformally advocated, appears to offer more benefit than even a band**. Given I'm here in Texas many medical centers can handle bites well, have anti-venom, and can support "the venom surge" when the band is released. Bruce is an EMT in more snake-infested parts, or MDShooter (ER doc) would make a useful chime in. </div></div>

Awesome, thanks for the input UKD. I'm in prime rattler country and run into them on a semi-regular basis and as such worry about them getting a lucky shot through the snake chaps. Would you tend to think that the major hospitals in my area, or any for that matter, would have anti-venom on hand? I know a lot of the vet clinics do, father-in-law's dog caught one right on the nose.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bhanDallas</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'd recommend avoiding the bite 'experience'. </div></div>

Oh, that never occurred to me.

bhan, that's gotta be one of the funniest posts ever. Still laughing LOL
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: palmik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you go hiking or hunting in an area that is known to be inhabited by venomous snakes, I would map out the distance to the nearest hospital and work a game plan if shit hits the fan. If possible, contact the hospital and ask if they carry anti venom, as there is a chance that they might not have it. If that is the case, find the nearest hospital that does. Otherwise, you will be taking a needless trip to the hospital, only to be transferred to another. Venom works really fast, and you need to act quickly or it will literally melt your flesh </div></div>
They wouldn't transfer you the victim to a place that had anti-venom, they'd import it to the hospital you are at, by helicopter if not a reasonable driving distance and depending in clinical signs of impending crash. Wouldn't you rather "crash" at a hospital than in an ambulance, esp. since many of these venoms wreak havoc on your blood clotting system - cause DIC or disseminated intravascular coagulation - in which case supportive care is receiving blood products until (and after) antivenom arrives. If you have muscle breakdown or red blood cell breakdown that can't be handled by your kidneys, short-term dialysis can be a lifesaver & can't be done in an ambulance. If the neurotoxin affects skeletal muscle (diaphragm paralyzed), your breathing can be mechanically supported much better in the ICU that in ambulance; cardiac arrest from envomation is usually survivable at most hospitals.
 
Re: Snake Bite

I recently attended an immediate action medical class where the doc discussed torniquette (sp?) usage in pretty good detail. He was saying that in the past, the medical community frowned on them. But after the Isrealis used them for up to 2 hours with no loss of limb, the opinion is slowly starting to change.
 
Re: Snake Bite

Coupla things.

First, I'm not a med, and my experience with actual snakebates is anecdotal/secondhand/observed.

The viper venom destroys things; blood cells, nerves, various other tissues. Quick treatment can reduce the damage. There is little point in waiting for anything. As for which to do, transport, or send for help; do both. Before you send messengers for help be sure you map out the path you're taking for transport and give it to the messenger so aid can figure out where to intercept you. Messengers, plural; never send anyone out on a desperate mission alone, we're trying to avoid creating additional injuries.

Oh, you're on your own? Well, you may well be f*cked, but you were f*cked <span style="font-style: italic">before </span> you got bit. Running around alone in the outback where vipers live is not especially smart. There's a buncha reasons why snipers don't travel alone.

The best way to treat a snakebite is in advance, don't get bit.

Snakes don't like people. They hightail it when they hear them coming. So if you want to meet up with snakes, by all means creep about.

Greg
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carnivore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That's a bit humorous, since UKDSlayer is a Doctor she might have a bit better idea as to how to treat this than reading websites. </div></div>

I'm not picking on UKDSlayer, but I take personal offense to statements that put doctors on pedestals. Doctors have proven the least informed on every emergency I've had, including one trying to discharge me out of arrogance which would have killed me had I not told her to f-off and waited out her shift, effectively unsupervised in the ER until after 11 hrs of nothing, the new doc said hi and was justifiably freaked out by what had transpired. Thankfully, I was better informed then her. They are no better than the people you work with. There are 20 idiots that ought to be fired for every 1 that is competent, and for every 100 that are minimally acceptably, only one of those is commendable. The only differentiation between doctors and say Cable TV support, is the field in which they work, and quite often, the the disdain with which they can treat their customers and still get paid, and still get a thank you at the end of the transaction.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
They wouldn't transfer you the victim to a place that had anti-venom, they'd import it to the hospital you are at, by helicopter if not a reasonable driving distance and depending in clinical signs of impending crash.</div></div>

Hmmm, he was saying before you go out, to check. That is smart planning. I've seen people rerouted countless times on Venom ER, something like every episode ever aired. Being someplace where you need to go past the nearest hospital is not good planning.

Folks can't do much but dial 911 and remain calm as possible, breathing slowly as possible. Once you're bit, the venom is in there and there's no trick that'll keep it from screwing up the next few weeks of your life.

As a snake nut, I would say the best way to never get bit is to actually go out looking for snakes with someone who does so for fun a few times. Most people's eyes don't flash when they see snake patterns. Learn your local snakes, learn to find them, and you will then be able to "see" them, and know better how to avoid them.

Snakes are just like guns. If you don't want to get hurt, learning to play safe ought to be the first step.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a small kit that comes in a yellow plastic box called "Extractor". You need to read up on how to use it and keep it in your day pack. It's the 1990s version of a better snake bite kit. I have carried one for several years. They work pretty well on bee stings too. </div></div>

It's a Sawyer brand extractor kit. Geat kit for bee stings,snake bites,scorpions,spider bites.
 
Re: Snake Bite

Given I'm here in Texas many medical centers can handle bites well, have anti-venom, and can support "the venom surge" when the band is released. Bruce is an EMT in more snake-infested parts, or MDShooter (ER doc) would make a useful chime in. [/quote]

Awesome, thanks for the input UKD. I'm in prime rattler country and run into them on a semi-regular basis and as such worry about them getting a lucky shot through the snake chaps. Would you tend to think that the major hospitals in my area, or any for that matter, would have anti-venom on hand? I know a lot of the vet clinics do, father-in-law's dog caught one right on the nose. [/quote]

I would highly wager in an endemic area your local hospitals have anti-venom. (I've seen some freshly-killed six footers in S. Texas.) Think about it, you said some of the vet clinics in your area have the anti-venom. The best thing for piece of mind, call the local hospitals, ask them how many bites they see/treat a year, and do they have fresh anti-venom in stock. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised (that they treat & have it in stock). I can't speak for NY or DC, but I can for Texas, and likely in Colorado. I do recall last year's local news showed a segment on increase in local cottonmouths (DFW suburbs), and the hospitals here all had anti-venom.
The stats really are in your favor if you get treatment immediately. Think - "they"(= the media) say 4,000-7,000 bites/year (exact number unknown because of the unreported ones), and there are only 4-5 deaths a year. That's pretty reassuring to me. The stats also suggest 40% of bites are "snake" people that like to keep exotics as pets, or are trying to "catch" (not kill) a live one in the wild. Saw a pretty impressive case on the show "Bitten" - was a snake handler who broke protocol with highly venomous snake and no known anti-venom; he still made it but he lost a chunk of his hand, had to have surgery for compartment syndrome. I also heard that once they bite, most snakes stay within 20 feet. Of bites in the wild, most occur June-August.

OK, Shot-in-Dark; here is the most recent protocol, from May 2009, written by your local hospital for the local EMS service (p. 91 snake bite)
http://vic.pvhs.org/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/PVHS/PVHS_DOCUMENT_MGMT2/DOC_SERVICE/PVHS_EMS_PROTOCOL
PS stay away from that Front Range, OK?
Sorry - The link doesn't work, put I was able to pull it up from your local hospital's web-site, put snake bite in the search box on the right, hit two more links to find the protocol; and it specifically mentioned prairie rattlesnakes on the Front Range, and what to do when picking up a snake bite victim, and to radio base to mobilize resources. That hospital has hyperbaric chambers for wound care too - I think your GTG.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hankpac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There is a lecture on tape, by that Doctor from Texas, I can't remember his name (Red?) about Poisonous snake bites.



</div></div>
Dr Red Duke out of houston
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BugSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've seen people rerouted countless times on Venom ER, something like every episode ever aired.

As a snake nut, I would say the best way to never get bit is to actually go out looking for snakes with someone who does so for fun a few times. Most people's eyes don't flash when they see snake patterns. Learn your local snakes, learn to find them, and you will then be able to "see" them, and know better how to avoid them.

</div></div>

You watch a show called "Venom ER" based out of a Loma Linda ER w/a snake MD expect, and because every person on every episode in that TV series was turfed to that tertiary "Venom ER", where of course they coincidentally happened to be videotaping the show, you interpret that everyone on this show was rerouted because this is the standard of care for all snake bites, and means every one bitten by a snake need to skip the local hospital on the way to the "Venom ER". The local hospital that can intubate/ventilate, give you blood products for DIC, give you dialysis for rhabdo, surgically depressurize for compartment syndrome, and administer the anti-venom that would treat most of the snake bites in the wild in US (not talking about "snake nuts" that like to keep exotics with no known anti-venom), should be foregone to get to "Venom ER". Your (failed) logic would be called selection bias. Let me guess, 90% of the bites on that show where not rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, or Cro-Fab species. I'm all for calling a Snake Doc if there is a question, but to defer care and precious time to get to a "Venom ER" would not be my recommendation. Unless you intentionally chose to play with exotic snakes with no known anti-venom.
 
Re: Snake Bite

This isn't exactly what I expected when I posted this topic but I'm loving it. Where's the popcorn?
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
PS stay away from that Front Range, OK?
</div></div>

Is there a reason why?
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vulcan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
PS stay away from that Front Range, OK?
</div></div>

Is there a reason why? </div></div>

prairie_rattlesnake.jpg


That's why, they are everywhere!
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My question being, What should a guy do if he is bitten in a situation such as this?</div></div>

You mean a situation where some guy almost sits on a snake. The snake doesn't bite him because it's scared shitless and is a cool customer. Then the guy in the situation scrambles away drawing his sidearm to get distance and decides it's a good idea to get close to the snake to hack it to death with a K-Bar instead of just letting the thing go on its way? You mean that kind of situation?

Now, let me think about how that kind of situation can be avoided. Hmmmm....Anyone have any ideas on how getting bit in that situation can be avoided? I'm fresh out of ideas.
wink.gif
 
Re: Snake Bite

RE: Self diagnosing a "dry bite"

Caution on this. A good friend was hit on the shin bone right above his "roper" boot top by a small rattler. He goes to town (Meridian, TX) and is examined by a doc, who says "no swelling, dry bite" and BTW, they are out of anti-venom. Fortunately, he heads back home to Dallas that evening, instead of the ranch. He wakes up the next morning with a leg black in color, lower leg swelled larger than his thigh, and extreme swelling of foot and ankle. He seeks immediate medical help and is hospitalized.

Bottom line, he almost lost his leg, and possibly his life due to a "dry bite". The fact it hit his shin, the venom was subdermis and did not spread immediately due to limited circulation.

This was one of those "lessons in life" - I'm glad I still have him as living a friend.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SnkBit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so I've been reading all the survival topics on here and it got me to thinking.

Last year I went with some friends on a hog hunt. We had to hike back about eleven miles from motor vehicle access. As we were scouting the area we planned to hunt the next morning I slipped on a loose slope at the top of a cliff. As I came to rest on my ass, legs spread, I noticed the very large, very angry Diamondback Rattlesnake between them. I drew my sidearm as I scrambled to distance myself from the critter. I refrained from shooting and ultimately killed it with my buddies K-bar. This was about a six foot snake with fourteen good buttons on him and a few more missing. The buttons, once removed, are the same length as my Kershaw Whirlwind in its folded position.

My question being, What should a guy do if he is bitten in a situation such as this? That is a hell of a long hike through brush and other elements without the added hassle of being bitten. What would be the best course of action to ensure survival?</div></div>

Have a good friend suck the poision out. Sorry couldn't resist.
I'm pretty sure that the best thing for snake bite is stay calm, and if possible submerge the bite in water as hot as you can stand it for as long as possible. The hot water is supposed to start breaking down the venom and makes it less threatening. Then get to a hospital ASAP and prepare for a good week long stay.
 
Re: Snake Bite

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wear a cup?</div></div>

lol.......that was great
 
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