Sniper Rifle Selection

[SReichert]

I get a lot of questions from folks these days about what rifle they should purchase, what caliber, gas or bolt etc. Here’s some things to chew on before making a decision:

- Most Special Operations Force snipers these days can only guarantee a 1st round 100% hit rate (anytime, any weather, any place) out to between 500-600 yards. Joint Special Operations Command conducted a small exercise to confirm this several years ago. Keep in mind that there are some shit-hot SOF snipers out there that have greater range, but this is not the norm.

- Since the guaranteed 1st round hit engagement distance is that close, a good semi-auto in 7.62 mm would provide comparable results and be more than acceptable.

- Many semi-auto rifle makers guarantee 1/2 MOA and some shoot even better. So, there are minimal accuracy concerns with a semi-auto rifle, especially inside of 550 yards.

- If you’re not constantly training or don’t make a good wind call decisions, the chances of missing at 500-600 yards are higher, so follow up shot capabilities are a factor in your purchasing decision. With a semi-auto you can watch the round go down range without working a bolt. So, IF you miss on your first shot the follow-on shot is out faster.

- A semi-auto rifle provides a lot of firepower, so there’s no need to carry an M4 with you while on patrol

- If you need a rifle to shoot past 600 yards with a high percentage of achieving a 1st round hit, use a bolt gun chambered in a faster more powerful cartridge….. .300 Winchester Mag or .338LM.

I had a Hogan H308 (www.hoganguns.com) 14.5” gas piston with a NF 2.5-10X on top out on the range at Camp Lejeune a few weeks back. Shooting at an NRA F-Class target at 600yds the vertical group would CONSTANTLY stay inside the X ring (1/2 MOA), the wind would occasionally blow it into the 10 ring! The rifle was keeping up with the Marine M40A5’s on the range plus I had the tactical advantages of less weight, less length and more firepower. In short, 500 yards and in use a semi-auto in 7.62mm, any further use a more powerful round out of a bolt gun.

 

[Graham]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

Basic-level info, but a splashy solid start to being here. Glad you finally found us. And welcome to the Hide!

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

Nice website...

 

[SReichert]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

Thanks Graham

 

[Graham]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

.308 semis appear harder for novices to drive correctly, though:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...582#Post2590582

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

Welcome to the Hide, Enjoy your stay.
Chris

 

[n8lusk]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

Great post. I don't consider it basic info because a lot of shooters out there still don't consider the semi's as precision rifles (only due to ignorance of the topic). Post like this with added sustenance help alleviate some readers who don't have knowledge of the capabilities of a quality semi (and regurgitate what they have always heard).

I've been wanting our Office to add at least one precision semi to our ERT. The two battles are "we have always done it this way" and some older decision makers that still say "its just not as accurate as a bolt". The more available information out there is one of the best ways to initiate change.

Thanks again for the post Hunter,
Nathan

 

[SReichert]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

If the old guys in the office say a semi is not as accurate as a bolt gun it just shows you how outdated they are. I know many Marine Snipers who would rarely take out their bolt guns if they had access to an Mk11 or M110 that shot it's ass off. That said not all of their semi's shoot as good a their bolt guns. On the civilian side of the world we can purchase rifles with accuracy guarantees and if said rifle does not meet the accuracy standard the manufacture states we send it back. The conventional military guys don't have that luxury (some SOF guys do).

Too often when working with LE snipers I see old polices dictating current equipment, tactics and training. Cops are still carrying around bolt action 7.62's with 26" BBL's to make 50yd shots, laying on their guts 90% of their training and rarely practicing at distance.

Get gas guns, get in shape, get off your gut and train hard. Your potential advisories are doing so!

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

Having spent close to 10 years as an LEO I can guarantee you that policies, directives and financial decisions surrounding long rifle teams, training and equipment are being made by those behind the scenes with little to no training/experience in the same.

Non-shooters making shooting related decisions.

Case in point, there's two local agencies here. Repeatedly I've offered to build three long guns for each agency for their swat/srt teams at cost, zero profit. 19-22" hard usage 308's in hard cases, fully suppressed, NF mil/mil optics, NV ready, the works. One agency chose the 26" Remington 700PSS with Mk4 optics and mounts in stead. At least the other agency tuned up what they had and I re-worked their rifles at the same deal, no charge.

First round hits at distance is s pipe dream at best. They train for the 80-100 yard shot.

All a guy has to do is read the paper and open his eyes. The civilian market has the custom long guns, 300WM, 338LM, NV, Laser Range Finders, Suppressors, the works. If this equipment ended up in the wrong hands via a burglary or other theft it could get real bad real quick for some.

I hate to see agencies take a reactive stance when a proactive stance would be much better in the long run.

 

[SReichert]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

That's one hell of a deal of Made them WNROSCOE! Must have been a hard decision for their higher-up's to make.. do we get a high-end tack driving machine... or go with a mass produced rifle that probably won't headspace! What idiots!

 

[Guy Montag]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Repeatedly I've offered to build three long guns for each agency for their swat/srt teams at cost, zero profit. 19-22" hard usage 308's in hard cases, fully suppressed, NF mil/mil optics, NV ready, the works. One agency chose the 26" Remington 700PSS with Mk4 optics and mounts in stead. </div></div>

No good deed goes unpunished!!

Most of us have seen this kind of stupidity in other purchasing situations, but it never ceases to amaze me when it does happen. You're so right about the decision makers often being the least capable folks to be "pulling triggers".

 

[matthewusmc8791]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> First round hits at distance is s pipe dream at best. They train for the 80-100 yard shot.

All a guy has to do is read the paper and open his eyes. The civilian market has the custom long guns, 300WM, 338LM, NV, Laser Range Finders, Suppressors, the works. If this equipment ended up in the wrong hands via a burglary or other theft it could get real bad real quick for some. </div></div>

If all they are doing is shootign 80-100, what the heell do they need to buy 300win mags, 338 and stack S&B scopes o them...

On the point of going bad, well didn't it already get there when the FBI and ATF allowed gun stores in texas to sell illegal firearms to the drig cartels...lol

 

[n8lusk]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

The good news for us is we have gone and are going through changes. There is a lot more open minded discussions that have allowed us to make some forward advances. $$$ is of course some of the hold-up.

William, I hate to hear they did not take you up on the offer. I know your build for me has the same cold bore as its follow up shots. Sure makes it easy firing that first round.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matthewusmc8791</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If all they are doing is shooting 80-100, what the hell do they need to buy 300win mags, 338 and stack S&B scopes o them...

On the point of going bad, well didn't it already get there when the FBI and ATF allowed gun stores in texas to sell illegal firearms to the drug cartels...lol </div></div>

Alright, I’ll lay it out.,

It's all about keeping an open mind and being smart enough to realize that it can happen to you, me, us, them, here, there.

While in almost any metropolitan location look around you 360, what do you see. Any elevated positions, old abandoned buildings, vacant warehouses? Unfortunately, these available positions are there/here, city or rural, you have them. If a person was to set up in the right/wrong spot depending how you look at it with the right weapon system, he could dictate the tone of the fight.

I know an LEO in Midland Texas that was in such a position a year or so back. He owns two of my builds and we speak from time to time via telephone or email. The bad guy had already taken three life’s, one LEO, two civilians. This is what prompted the ensuing battle. His house/hide was in the middle of a large piece of property that had yardage markers out in a 360.

With a cobbled together 308 gas gun and POS optic he kept an APC and LEO's at bay to the tune of 1,200 yards. The APC took multiple hits during this incident. During the battle another LEO was fatally wounded, he was a long rifle member trying to get in a better position.

2 or 3 days later the bad guy either ran out of ammo or had a severe weapons malfunction, they weren’t sure at the time. He promptly arraigned his weapons and remaining gear in a pile and poured gasoline on them and lit it up.

He casually walked outside with his arms raised and gave up. This douche bag dictated the tone of the battle and made the decision when and how to end it. When this LEO called me he was looking for another rifle, a 338LM. That’s when he told me this story. Seems the 308's they were shooting couldn’t do justice at that distance with the suspect dug in like he was. Sometimes, a 308 just isn’t enough.

There are larger rifles than that out here already. If my message only reaches one LEO and makes him/her stop for one second and think and possibly saves their life, I win. That’s all I want. That’s been my agenda from day one with the local agencies.

Don’t be that dumbass that goes through life thinking inside that same old tired box and basing your decisions on your current economic position. Shit changes and on a daily basis.

Some better get ready.

 

[matthewusmc8791]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matthewusmc8791</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If all they are doing is shooting 80-100, what the hell do they need to buy 300win mags, 338 and stack S&B scopes o them...

On the point of going bad, well didn't it already get there when the FBI and ATF allowed gun stores in texas to sell illegal firearms to the drug cartels...lol </div></div>

Alright, I&#146;ll lay it out.,

It's all about keeping an open mind and being smart enough to realize that it can happen to you, me, us, them, here, there.

While in almost any metropolitan location look around you 360, what do you see. Any elevated positions, old abandoned buildings, vacant warehouses? Unfortunately, these available positions are there/here, city or rural, you have them. If a person was to set up in the right/wrong spot depending how you look at it with the right weapon system, he could dictate the tone of the fight.

I know an LEO in Midland Texas that was in such a position a year or so back. He owns two of my builds and we speak from time to time via telephone or email. The bad guy had already taken three life&#146;s, one LEO, two civilians. This is what prompted the ensuing battle. His house/hide was in the middle of a large piece of property that had yardage markers out in a 360.

With a cobbled together 308 gas gun and POS optic he kept an APC and LEO's at bay to the tune of 1,200 yards. The APC took multiple hits during this incident. During the battle another LEO was fatally wounded, he was a long rifle member trying to get in a better position.

2 or 3 days later the bad guy either ran out of ammo or had a severe weapons malfunction, they weren&#146;t sure at the time. He promptly arraigned his weapons and remaining gear in a pile and poured gasoline on them and lit it up.

He casually walked outside with his arms raised and gave up. This douche bag dictated the tone of the battle and made the decision when and how to end it. When this LEO called me he was looking for another rifle, a 338LM. That&#146;s when he told me this story. Seems the 308's they were shooting couldn&#146;t do justice at that distance with the suspect dug in like he was. Sometimes, a 308 just isn&#146;t enough.

There are larger rifles than that out here already. If my message only reaches one LEO and makes him/her stop for one second and think and possibly saves their life, I win. That&#146;s all I want. That&#146;s been my agenda from day one with the local agencies.

Don&#146;t be that dumbass that goes through life thinking inside that same old tired box and basing your decisions on your current economic position. Shit changes and on a daily basis.

Some better get ready.
</div></div>

Still wondering what you mean from your post, if they only train and plan to take shot at 80-100 why wont they need a $10k set.. If they had it and only practiced for 80yd shot it wouldnt matter what they had they wouldnt hit it. So whats the point.

Th shit hitting the fan, what about the FBI and ATF giving guns to kills.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

Matthew,

Yes, you're correct, if they're only going to take an 80-100 yard shot they don’t need the high dollar set up. My offer would have cost them $4,000 per rifle. That would have gotten them a signature series 308 in a Pelican Hard case with a 3.5x15x50 mil/mil Night Force scope, suppressor and NV ready.

I firmly believe all agencies also need a 300WM in their arsenal with the 308's.

 

[RAMERIK]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

it is rather obvious....shit does change. in the LE world they never know what they are going to be up against. Yes statistics guide us into thinking what is typical 80-100... but then listen to the story again...
My unit does not let me take a 50 or 300 if i choose. we get what they give us. My buddy that is HRT(local) can carry whatever he wants.(that he qualifies with. I wish that was the case for me, I would not carry my 308 in asscrackistan...

 

[n8lusk]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

"Still wondering what you mean from your post, if they only train and plan to take shot at 80-100 why wont they need a $10k set.. If they had it and only practiced for 80yd shot it wouldnt matter what they had they wouldnt hit it. So whats the point."

It's the whole scenario he is referring to. They obviously need to change their mind set and he was trying to provide an oportunity...at a steal. William doesn't just build great rifles; he also provides a lot of training and lifetime support. He has always helped me, even when it was the simplest "hate to ask a stupid question" question.

As for "Th shit hitting the fan, what about the FBI and ATF giving guns to kills" that just amplifies what the overall message is, be prepared.

 

[RAMERIK]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

agreed...

 

[OdellJym]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

I definately agree that many agencies are allowing themselves to be under equipped and untrained in very realistic situations that are often seen in the headlines. Playing devil's advocate, though, one consideration that must also be considered is the jury's perception of our LE shooter in the courtroom. A good attorney will have that rifle on display during the lawsuit and paint the picture of an overzealous agency that WANTED, no, NEEDED to satisfy their bloodlust by killing his client's relative. He will paint the picture of a military police force, much like the gestapo, that roams our streets, equipped for war. Then, the police agency will pay dearly and be forced to cut back or eliminate their precision programs. So, in spite of my desire to see our protectors fitted and trained to do their jobs in any situation, I can not overlook the fact that the sheepdog serve the sheep at their pleasure and, in the absence of the wolf, can appear to be too menacing and too frightening for the sheep to live with.

 

[NET65]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

^^ Very well put, this is reality. However, they will be sued by the gunmans victims for not using better equipment and training. Gonna get sued either way.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

When I left Law Enforcement myself and several other officers were in the middle of a $2.5 mil wrongful death law suit as defendants

It stemmed from a patrol level drug interdiction program we were running and doing quite well at it I might add. In the end, they got jack shit but, it sucked ass to go through that.

We live in a society where a lawyers finger is on the trigger waiting to file their next Lawsuit against an LEO or department. That’s just a fact of life and comes with the job.

If I was assigned to an srt team as a long rifle member I'd much rather have a full blown custom rifle capable of driving tacks than a PSS or factory offering.

Why train with your rifle to distance you might ask, at distance all of your mistakes show up in spades. If 4-600 becomes easy imagine how an 80-100 yard shot should/will feel. The guy that thinks he'll never have to take a shot past 80-100 yards is setting himself up for failure before he even gets started.

 

[Arbiter]

Re: Sniper Rifle Selection

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matthewusmc8791</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If all they are doing is shooting 80-100, what the hell do they need to buy 300win mags, 338 and stack S&B scopes o them...

On the point of going bad, well didn't it already get there when the FBI and ATF allowed gun stores in texas to sell illegal firearms to the drug cartels...lol </div></div>

Alright, I’ll lay it out.,

It's all about keeping an open mind and being smart enough to realize that it can happen to you, me, us, them, here, there.

While in almost any metropolitan location look around you 360, what do you see. Any elevated positions, old abandoned buildings, vacant warehouses? Unfortunately, these available positions are there/here, city or rural, you have them. If a person was to set up in the right/wrong spot depending how you look at it with the right weapon system, he could dictate the tone of the fight.

I know an LEO in Midland Texas that was in such a position a year or so back. He owns two of my builds and we speak from time to time via telephone or email. The bad guy had already taken three life’s, one LEO, two civilians. This is what prompted the ensuing battle. His house/hide was in the middle of a large piece of property that had yardage markers out in a 360.

With a cobbled together 308 gas gun and POS optic he kept an APC and LEO's at bay to the tune of 1,200 yards. The APC took multiple hits during this incident. During the battle another LEO was fatally wounded, he was a long rifle member trying to get in a better position.

2 or 3 days later the bad guy either ran out of ammo or had a severe weapons malfunction, they weren’t sure at the time. He promptly arraigned his weapons and remaining gear in a pile and poured gasoline on them and lit it up.

He casually walked outside with his arms raised and gave up. This douche bag dictated the tone of the battle and made the decision when and how to end it. When this LEO called me he was looking for another rifle, a 338LM. That’s when he told me this story. Seems the 308's they were shooting couldn’t do justice at that distance with the suspect dug in like he was. Sometimes, a 308 just isn’t enough.

There are larger rifles than that out here already. If my message only reaches one LEO and makes him/her stop for one second and think and possibly saves their life, I win. That’s all I want. That’s been my agenda from day one with the local agencies.

Don’t be that dumbass that goes through life thinking inside that same old tired box and basing your decisions on your current economic position. Shit changes and on a daily basis.

Some better get ready.
</div></div>

I understand your point, but your post brings several thoughts to mind. First, from the hopeless MMQB perspective, one has to ask the obvious question why the aforementioned Texas LEO and his team failed to obtain a better rifle in a situation lasting for <span style="font-weight: bold">several days</span>. Granting that simply laying hands on a rifle is a very different thing from knowing how to employ it at those distances, the fact remains that a situation lasting for several days is more than enough time for someone to go beg/borrow/steal a rifle chambered in something more capable than .308 Win, whether they're experienced with it or not.

Second, and more worthy of debate amongst the LEO snipers here than myself, the question remains as to where and how best to allocate resources. I've heard both perspectives from those in the community, and must acknowledge that the statistics from ASA speak for themselves. Most agencies struggle to provide sufficient range time, sufficient ammunition, training course budgets, and material support to their snipers. I'd agree that in a perfect world every agency would be prepared for situations like the one you relate, but in practice it seems the prudent agencies and individuals will prioritize the 5-200 yard envelope over the 250-500+ yard training and capability. Every dollar spent, every round of .338 Lapua or .50 BMG expended, represents, in the final analysis, that many fewer rounds of .308 fired in training under the circumstances that history shows are the most likely to be encountered tomorrow. For those without budget constraints (or with the desire and ability to spend their personal money), then have at it.