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So a question about a better prop

Lowlight

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Minuteman
  • Apr 12, 2001
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    Base of the Rockies
    www.snipershide.com
    Okay

    So coming off the Shooter's Mindset podcast I was specifically asked about the "skill" stages and most importantly the over-used barricade.

    I am on record that I hate the barricade stages, I find them silly and contrived, on top of the fact success can be attributed to the gear used. We have adapted to all sort of tools to manage a barricade. To make matters worse the height of the spec barricade was arbitrary and never correctly thought out for people of varying sizes. If you are under 5'6" it's a tippy toe shot for half the stage and the kneeling is equally stupid because it's an awkward position for the same group under 5'6". I have to raise up in order to reach removing the firing elbow from the knee. It' s impossible to do a proper kneeling position, hence the need for pillows and bags.

    I have no issue with a single game changer, not what I am looking to address. That genie is out of the bottle the bags are here to stay.

    So am working on a simply redefined prop, of course, it has been done, but my thinking is to create something of a standardized barricade type prop that is not height dependent. It's implied the stage has to be shot different than how it is currently done, that is a given, it's a stupid stage. I have posted my two-sided barricade plan before, so yes, this has all been discussed before. With that said, a lot of people are bringing it up as expand the field to women and children.

    7043561


    So I thinking of how can we address this and make it the same but different.

    I have seen a few steel welded props with arms that come up. I like this answer, it opens the door for a product from target companies, while potentially making it easy to move, store and travel with. It got me thinking a little Bruce Lee with his practice dummy using the arms.

    Minus a welder, how can make this easier, I been doodling with it using a combination of wood and steel.

    With all the bags and especially with the game changer I was considering the arms we use to shoot from. Of course, the wider 2x4, 2x6 etc shelves with a traditional barricade will offer more stability. But does this have to be about the stability of just accessibility? I mean if the go to answer is a bag, does the arm design matter beyond stability?

    So Home Depot has 24" heavy wall conduit for $14, with a 2x4 or even 4x4 you can simply drill a hole in it, use the conduit and you have a simply tree prop that mimics a barricade.

    At first, I thought about putting an arm every 6 inches alternating sides so you always have a 1-foot gap.

    Some noodling
    7043573


    The top can either be 60 Inches tall or it can be adjusted to 56" as it is now, then you scale down every 6 or 8 inches giving you maximum flexibility
    7043574


    The conduit would actually go through the wood so you have placement in the center too.

    With the steel ones I have seen, I think it is a good way to skin the cat with all the room being necessary.

    It's a work in progress and I might just run out and build it,

    Just thinking though, based on the conversation how would you change it ?
     
    I saw this a while back on Janna Reeves IG and was going to build similar for training.

    7043601
     
    Hi,

    What if you took the conduit "arms" and bent them into half circle pieces?

    Would that make stability less about the bag(s) and more about the shooters position by reducing the amount of "free recoil" one could manage from a half circle conduit piece?

    Would that make it easier to assemble/disassemble and transport for the style of matches you would be using them with?

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
    Frank, I have e built almost that exact prop for use at home. I'm on the road but I will try to send you a pic when I get home from this job. It works well for me to try different positions.
     
    @TacticalDillhole

    Part of what I am trying to do it less of it, those bigger props make it harder for people to make, change or store.

    I have no problem with the straight arms, they are gonna throw a bag on it anyway, the question is more about them being too small ? The idea being that the wood, 2x4 or 2x6 is wider for more purchase and stability.

    We have to look at the positions too, we are across the course guys, we should be focusing on sitting, kneeling, standing and prone. So the way we shoot it needs to change too

    I think the ability for steel target guys to make props for matches increases the availability, the ease, and it's another niche for them.
     
    A person is roughly 2/3 of thier total height from ground to armpit, and a person kneeling is roughly 1/3 of thier total height from ground to armpit.

    69" average male = 45" to armpit standing and 23" to armpit kneeling
    64" average female = 42" to armpit standing and 21" to armpit kneeling
    61" average 13 year old, (boys and girls average the same) = 40" to armpit standing and 20" kneeling

    Just some number to think about.
     
    A person is roughly 2/3 of thier total height from ground to armpit, and a person kneeling is roughly 1/3 of thier total height from ground to armpit.

    69" average male = 45" to armpit standing and 23" to armpit kneeling
    64" average female = 42" to armpit standing and 21" to armpit kneeling
    61" average 13 year old, (boys and girls average the same) = 40" to armpit standing and 20" kneeling

    Just some number to think about.
    Thats pretty interesting, that the kneeling position is a wash within 3".
    the right sized bag neutralizes the difference there...
    I am just spit balling here, as I am new to precision rifle shooting within the last three years; came from three gun before that.

    Picking a lower height for all the barricade positions would be less detrimental than a higher one if you are building a position, no?

    I was taught in a markmanship course that you bring/build the position to you (your natural prone, kneeling or standing positions), not the other way around.

    As an outlaw club level match director, I use the PRS wall only because when we transitioned to Practical Rifle Shooting with our club we thought we needed an official sized PRS wall.
    Turns out, it's sheathed 2x4 construction, which is heavy, a large prop to handle and move, and we spent a few bucks to build it, so we are obligated to keep it.
    This Saturday I witnessed Frank's bitch about shooting height first hand while RO'ing.
    A gentleman that was shorter was standing on his toes to get a sight picture at those two positions on the PRS wall.
    This said, we had a car stage and one of the positions was off the roof....its a compact hatchback....there were two shooters actually that had trouble at that height. I was not about to let the air out of the tires however, so what do you do?
    I understand the point of Franks barricade bitch, don't get me wrong.
     
    @Lowlight, do u remember me messaging you earlier this year about your barricade measurements? This is what I did with them at the house on my 200 yard range.
    20190711_180004.jpg
    20190711_180023.jpg
     
    I need to throw some lag bolts on there to straighten and tighten them up. They've started to sag like some old titties.
     
    How about using whatever barricade you have, but shooters have to shoot left handed from the left side and right handed from the right? Throw in a mag change and now you have a new skill to learn.
    Just a thot.
     
    I need to throw some lag bolts on there to straighten and tighten them up. They've started to sag like some old titties.
    Lag bolts should shore that up nice, great simple design
     
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    theres a range Pigg River Precision that has a pole with welded pipes coming off each side. Spacing per side is about 1' difference per pipe from 6" off prone up to above my head (im 5'7). The 2 sides are staggered so really you have a position every 6" I believe.

    Its fairly new but it was 5 of any position you wanted, made it nicer for the varying heights and made you have to guess what were the perfect heights for your build/size.

    Liked it alot more than barricades.
     
    @lowlight

    A 2x6 or 2x8 with 2 pieces of conduit at the same height spiced an inch or so apart would be simple and more stable than 1 piece