So how'd I do. M1903 at 100 yards

[ChrisBCS]

...peep sight. Ultra cheap Remington 150gr ammo. Frankly, I surprised myself. This is my 3rd time shooting this rifle, a 1919 Rock Island M1903 that I've posted about earlier. My first two outings were beyond pathetic. When I saw two shots touch... then I saw two 0.17 MOA apart... Talk about a smile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXYrTfABiC8

(Yes I know, use the sling, not a bench).

 

[jbell]

Nothing wrong with that...

 

[LanceS4803]

Those rifles used to rule Camp Perry for many, many years.
Amazing what an almost 100 year old rifle can still do.

 

[09cs]

Looking good! What app is that if you don't mind me asking?

 

[ChrisBCS]

Thanks folks! 09cs, it's the basic version of Ballistic.

 

[kraigWY]

The 10-X ring on the target used in the CMP GSM targets is 3.5 MOA. Telling us that these rifles are capable of cleaning those targets. Too bad when we get to the range its US that lets them down.

In my opinion the M1903 rifles are the best military bolt guns ever made.

 

[ChrisBCS]

The 10-X ring on the target used in the CMP GSM targets is 3.5 MOA. Telling us that these rifles are capable of cleaning those targets. Too bad when we get to the range its US that lets them down.

In my opinion the M1903 rifles are the best military bolt guns ever made.

Kraig, what distance are the GSM targets engaged at?

 

[kraigWY]

The GSM matches are normally fired at 200 yards on the 200 yard NRA HP target. When the range is limited, then its fired at 100 yards using the 100 yard reduced target.

The "A" course is 35 rounds. 5 Sighers followed by 10 rounds slow fire, Prone supported. Then 10 rounds rapid fire in 80 seconds, prone supported. Then 10 rounds off hand, in 10 min.

Supported means using the sling for support, (no sandbags, or other aides). The sling cannot be used in the off hand (standing) position.

I know this sounds easy, but when you look at the scores fired at these matches, you'll see its the shooter that's the limiting factor not the rifle. As I said, few M1903s or Garand's cant shoot 3.5 MOA. Yet you don't see many cleaned targets. If one can hold 3.5 moa, he can win the match.

I recommend going to Civilian Marksmanship Program and glance over the CMP website. Check out the forums section for some good information.

 

[kraigWY]

To add:

Course "B" is the same thing but with a Setting Rapid Fire Stage, again in 80 seconds, setting (sling) supported.

 

[09cs]

Thanks folks! 09cs, it's the basic version of Ballistic.

is it free or paid version? Looks really cool? got a name, a bunch came up in the app store

 

[lash]

[MENTION=99453]09cs[/MENTION], yes, it's called "Ballistic: Standard Edition" and should cost somewhere around $10 if I recall correctly.

 

[09cs]

[MENTION=75240]lash[/MENTION], thank you!

 

[pmclaine]

They shoot!

 

[pmclaine]

PS - If you intend to make your 03 a regular shooter buy yourself an OHare sight micrometer or a replica from Creedmoor Sports. It's the only way to get repeatable sight settings and you can actually move your slide by 1/4 moa movements. It's a rare 03 that will register accurate settings on the slide unless the shooter has made it that way and forever uses the same ammo.

 

[997/2man]

They shoot!

Wow. Consider the changes in smalls arms design. From .30cal. to .22 caliber. 5 rounds to 20 or 30. Weight has dropped. Maintenance, blued/wood v. modern coatings/synthetic furniture. Iron sights to modern RD/scopes.

Cool pics, OP.

 

[Orlando]

Considering the target you were using not to bad. Use a SR-1 target for a much better sight picture and your groups may shrink
There are many places you can download a SR-1 Target online and print it off. Use it at 100 yds ,6 OClock hold

 

[ChrisBCS]

A 5 shot group from today...

 

[Joop]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think that gun wants to group better than what you're currently getting out of it. In both photos, I'm seeing what I would call "mini groups", with the latest photo showing two such groups where two shots are overlapping. My hunch is that it's either your sight picture, trigger pull, or the action may not be tight enough in the stock. I have a feeling that if you can iron this out, your rifle will be shooting five round cloverleafs at this distance, especially if you can run quality ammo/handloads through it. You're definitely on the right track, though.

John

 

[pmclaine]

I couldnt shoot those scope targets with my iron sights. Get some SR1 100 yd reduced targets and start shooting the lollipop on a stick sight picture you will probably get better consistency.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

Place your non-firing hand on the handguard. You will have more consistent control over the rifle from shot to shot; and thus, angular error from unpredictable recoil resistance will be reduced. Also, as has been said, shoot at a target which permits an understanding for a consistent target/sight relationship.

 

[Joop]

OP,

Place your non-firing hand on the handguard. You will have more consistent control over the rifle from shot to shot; and thus, angular error from unpredictable recoil resistance will be reduced. Also, as has been said, shoot at a target which permits an understanding for a consistent target/sight relationship.

+1

For iron sight testing, I'll take a plain, white piece of paper and spray paint a black spot on it, about 2-4" in diameter (depending on lighting conditions for the session). The contrast helps to get a consistent sight picture and it's dirt cheap, too. I'm also a firm believer in holding the forend of the stock. Some will argue that the bullet is gone before there is any movement of the barrel. My groups would show otherwise.

 

[kraigWY]

What I want to point out is the capabilities of the M1903 setting the shooter aside for a bit.

If one studies the chart, you'll see the M1903 Springfield ( as well as other vintage surplus rifles) shoot better then we do. I've seen some damn fine scores fired at 1000 yard matchs by old timers shooting un modified Springfield's using M2 ball ammo.

As you can see, mixing ammo still keeps the groups 5 X 6 inches at 200 yards or about 3 MOA. Go to the CMP web site, competition section and look at the scores fired in Springfield Matches. You don't see many "clean" scores. That would take 3.5 MOA.

As I mentioned, these old war horses shoot a lot better then we do.

 

[ChrisBCS]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think that gun wants to group better than what you're currently getting out of it.

No worries! My Grandfather used to say there are three kinds of rifle shots: killers, winners, and teachers. If you aren't killing your quarry or winning a match, you should be learning.

In both photos, I'm seeing what I would call "mini groups", with the latest photo showing two such groups where two shots are overlapping. My hunch is that it's either your sight picture

This right here. I am having a devil of a time getting a consistent sight picture shot to shot. I am going to try black circle targets as suggested here. Thanks!!

 

[ChrisBCS]

When you refer to keeping your non firing hand on the hand guard, can you point to an illustration of exactly how it should be done?

 

[pmclaine]

The 1903 needs no further kudos

The Rifleman's Journal: History: Dad Farr and the Farr Trophy

 

[Sterling Shooter]

When you refer to keeping your non firing hand on the hand guard, can you point to an illustration of exactly how it should be done?

Let the stock rest in the V formed between the thumb and index finger of the non firing hand. Wrist remains straight. Weight of rifle rests on heal of hand. Fingers allowed to curl naturally around handguard. Use only enough pressure to control the rifle.

 

[ChrisBCS]

Thanks Sterling. I am bad at that so far. I've just been dry firing like that prone, my left arm needs to get more stamina. It starts shaking pretty easily under the strain. I wonder if I'm not doing something right still.

 

[pmclaine]

Nothing says you cant use a Riflemans sling off a bench.

Slinging up and a good bone supported position will create a "tripod" of sorts to support your rifle.

Even better get prone and sling up. Get good bone support, NPA and the mass of your body to control the rifle.

 

[ChrisBCS]

Nothing says you cant use a Riflemans sling off a bench.

Slinging up and a good bone supported position will create a "tripod" of sorts to support your rifle.

Even better get prone and sling up. Get good bone support, NPA and the mass of your body to control the rifle.

NPA = Natural Point of Aim?

 

[kraigWY]

my left arm needs to get more stamina. It starts shaking pretty easily under the strain. I wonder if I'm not doing something right still.

If your left arm (sling arm) gets shaky then you need to re-evaluate you position. The sling holds the rifle into your shoulder. The left hand goes under the forearm as stated, it does not grip the forearm, the hand forms a V and the forearm rest in the V, slightly. There should be no muscling. What little bit of weight resting on the hand rest on bones. As SS said, keep the wrist straight, the weight goes down through the bones in you arm to the elbow on the mat. The elbow should be as directly under the rifle as possible.

I like a low position (see picture), that requires lengthening the sling but as you can see the sling is holding most of the weight of the rifle. I also don't have much of a grip with the firing hand. Just enough to keep my hand from falling off the rifle.

You should be in a total relaxed state when you get your natural point of aim. You should be able to close your eye, take a couple natural breaths, during the natural breathing pause (at the bottom of the cycle) let the hammer fall, before opening your eyes take another couple (natural) breaths, then open your eyes and see if you still have a natural point of aim, if not you're muscling the rifle, you're not relaxed and that will, besides causing fatigue, you'll have poor follow through.

 

[ChrisBCS]

Awesome Kraig!! I just figured it out, err, had it click... the sling is a miracle!.

It does put the cocking piece much closer to my eye than I'm used to. But I'm guessing with the support against recoil, I don't have to worry about it.

 

[pmclaine]

Awesome Kraig!! I just figured it out, err, had it click... the sling is a miracle!.

It does put the cocking piece much closer to my eye than I'm used to. But I'm guessing with the support against recoil, I don't have to worry about it.

This is the Army manual way to use the M1907 sling.

Welcome to Turner Sling | turnersling.com

Play with this and try building a position. I think you will really like what the sling does for you.

I rig mine slightly different (frogs are against the rifle). Either way will work. I think the frogs against the rifle approach binds the arm loop better.

 

[pmclaine]

It does put the cocking piece much closer to my eye than I'm used to. But I'm guessing with the support against recoil, I don't have to worry about it.

Watch your safety lever. If something is going to bite you it will likely be the safety lever.

One of my 1903's has a reverse safety (fire is flipped to the right) which was an option from back in the day when the 1903 was the rifle.

Reverse Safety

 

[ChrisBCS]

Thanks everyone! I made a handful of these tonight with the fire formed brass off the cheap ammo.

Time to play!

 

[Joop]

If I may ask, what's your load? Guessing 168 or 178 A-Max?

 

[ChrisBCS]

If I may ask, what's your load? Guessing 168 or 178 A-Max?

Of course!

155 A-Max on top of 49 gr IMR 4064, seated just deep enough to fit in the M1903 magazine. Each charge weighed.

This thread has a lot of fantastic info for me, a novice milsurp high power shooter. Can't thank you all enough for being so generous thus far!

 

[Joop]

Cool.

My 03-A3 loves 168s (actually shoots pretty well with anything I've put in it), but I haven't tried 155s. Looking forward to your next report.

 

[Deej]

I tried everything in mine and I mean everything. I was on a 6 month mission. I couldn't get my reloads to group as well as the milsup. Then I pulled a bullet and tried the 155 Palma. Last time a friend shot it was just over MOA. And rings steel at 300 as long as the loose screw is fairly tight. Thanks for all the info guys. The 03 is one of my favorites for several reasons.

 

[ChrisBCS]

Holy CRAP!

Well, today was a good day at the range to put it mildly. First of all, the weather was perfect.

There were three other gentlemen on the line. One was decked head to toe in 5.11 shooting a brand new M14... scoped. The second was switching back and forth between ARs and some kind of generic Remington 700. Then there was a retired gentleman, former Army, former Wildcatter, another scoped M14, all synthetic. When I went to retrieve my target, they came downrange to check theirs as well.

The wildcatter (who wanted to take a few shots at my sighting target; I gladly let him!) walks over to my target and exclaims, "100 yards with irons? I like the sh$t outta that!" He asked me what I did for a living, I told him I was a research scientist over at the university. He said "get the hell outta here, really?? Where'd you learn how to shoot?" I told him

Naturally, after that, the other two gentlemen got curious and came over... they didn't say anything. Heheh.

11 shots, 100 yards, slinged up, elbows to the bench.

 

[Joop]

There you go, brotha!