Advanced Marksmanship Speed reload with a 1911

[adam1122]

Ok, so I am trying to speed up my reloads with my 1911...Ive shot thousands of rounds and use my weapon professionally. Ive seen Thomas Detomasie (spelling may be wrong - he's with US Army marksmanship unit...check him out on youtube for speed reload).

Questions - what is the best way you guys think it is to keep your speed up while maximizing potential error (i.e missing the magwell) while keeping your eyes on the target. Currently, my technique is to focus on the target with both eyes - bend my arm 45 degrees and close in to my body...so where my elbow is touching the side of my body and the weapon is rotated 45 degrees and then initiate a reload. I drop the mag as soon as Im empty and then start the process.

Any tips to speed it up? Ive seen the Army marksmanship guys doing it but they are generally on film shooting while still and moving etc.

Ive watched and memorized Magpuls Art of the fighting pistol 5 dicsc CD set and follow what Rod Costa has to say pretty closely bv he's just a badass with a pistol.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks guys.

 

[WhiskeyWebber]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

My USPSA technique: 1911 STI single stack .45 "boom", before the recoil impulse is finishing, keep the gun at eye level, let go of the gun with my left hand and grab the full mag with my index finger on the round part of the mag. Somewhere during that process I have dropped the empty mag with my right thumb. Next, I rotate the gun about 45deg focusing my eyes on the mouth of the magwell and I guide my index finger toward the front of the magwell. As I realize I've found the magwell cleanly, I reacquire the target and my sight picture and I ram the mag home finishing with the heel of my palm, use that upward momentum of the left hand to slam into a tight re-grip and commence to shooting again. Also, I almost never initiate a mag change with an empty chamber...it's one more step to release if you've run completely out of ammo.

Do you have a par timer? If not, get one. Set it for 2 sec, then 1.5,1.4,1.3,1.2.....0.3etc. If you don't want to buy a par timer to measure your progress, then aim to get the reload accomplished before the empty mag hits the floor. Gravity is a pretty consistent way to measure time as long as you are consistently the same height from practice session to practice session.

 

[adam1122]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

Thanks for the info on your technique. SO far, I can consitently drop a mag and have anothe one on its way into the gun before the empty hits the ground. Also, I never shoot until I am empty...always have one in the chamber so it's 8 shots and then speed reload.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[baddoggy]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

most of the noncompetition focused instructors teach not to "game" your reload by anticipating it before slide lock. what do both you, OP and whiskeywebber think?

 

[WhiskeyWebber]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baddoggy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">most of the noncompetition focused instructors teach not to "game" your reload by anticipating it before slide lock. what do both you, OP and whiskeywebber think? </div></div>

I think that's probably good advice in a real life scenario. The reality is USPSA is a shooting game and I am counting shots the whole time. In a defense situation with adrenaline, I think counting shots would probably go out the window.

 

[adam1122]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

Since I was taught always to count rounds, especially under stress fire I rarely get to slide lock. My 1911 holds 8 in the clip and one in the chamber so if I was taught to shoot in 4 strings of 2 shots each and then I would always have a round left. Having an empty gun in a gunfight is a bad situation unless you have a team of army guys or marines or other Leo officers with you to provide cover fire. Counting to 4 is easier than counting to 8 or 9 and with practice is not too hard if you continually practice under a stress fire situation.

Anticipating a reload will only make you take your head out of the game and possibly loose focus on the threat. There is no substitute for rounds going downrange so don't run out and get screwed bc you didn't take the time or train to count your rounds. That goes for pistol or an M4 with a 30 rd clip. That's just how I got trained though.....if you are just shooting for fun who cares right?

 

[WhiskeyWebber]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

Yep, that's exactly how I count it too with my 8 round mag in .45. I guess I've really only treated USPSA stuff as a fun game... never really thought about real world application. Maybe I should.

 

[adam1122]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

If you shoot USPA counting rounds isnt exactly critical. However, if you carry a CHL or depend on your weapon for saving your ass then knowing how many rounds you have left is critical.

I got taught that every time you get the chance you reload with a fresh mag if you have expended any rounds at all....keep as many rounds in the gun as you can while you are shooting. Rule of thumb as Clint Smith said it best...if you aren;t shooting, you better be reloading and or moving for cover.

Happy shooting!

 

[adam1122]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

I dream of getting this fast....DAMN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgdq1FBYTUE

 

[Graham]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dream of getting this fast....DAMN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgdq1FBYTUE
</div></div>That's smooth, but notice that he doesn't hit the mag release until his non-shooting hand is at the spare magazine.

 

[HiCapMag]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

OP note the position of the right elbow in the video. It sounds like you may be bringing the gun in closer than you need. Take a look it might save you a tenth

 

[adam1122]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

I wish I could say that was me....thats Travis Detomasie of The US Army's marksmanship unit. Check videos of him and the whole team on youtube. They got talent.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so I am trying to speed up my reloads with my 1911...Ive shot thousands of rounds and use my weapon professionally . </div></div>


Speed in the context of what? A game? Or in the context of professional use? Ever boot a mag? In a game there is no 'real' penalty, professionally there could be.

You sound like you work on your chops a lot, so you know how it is you start by looking the mag into the well, then it is just catching the flash of the inside of the mag well (I've even seen some guys paint the inside section on the outboard side white to reduce the visual effort) and later it is you just don't even look at it - it's grooved and you know where it is - period. Me, myself and I say the grooved no lookie thing is cool for games, but in a professional setting I would make a policy of always seeing the flash in the mag well.

Just me.

Good luck

ETA - 'professionally' why are you wasting time counting rounds?

And what is a 'clip'?

 

[adam1122]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

Sorry....got lazy and typed clip instead of a magazine. And counting rounds is a professional necessity that not all LEO, military or even hardcore civilian instructors teach. I got taught to count rounds so I would never run out of rounds. Out of rounds = you die in gunfight. So, with a 1911 I was taught to count in strings of 2 which always leaves one in the chamber which can be fired as you know even if I had the magazine out of the weapon in the middle of a magazine change. Not everyone needs to learn to do that especially under stress. People who just shoot paper targets dont really need to learn the technique but folks who rely on their guy can get F*cked if they run dry. So, always top of your magazine when you have the opportunity. It goes along with the shoot, move, communicate and reload....better be doing one or more in a gunfight or your survival chances drop significantly. The magazine change is almost all muscle memory for me so I can grab a spare mag of my belt or chest carrier without looking and load it (3 fingers on the mag) relatively consistently without getting my eyes off target but for a brief moment.

I've got a magwell on my 1911 so it's not hard to reload pretty quick if I keep my technique proper. I think possibly painting the inside left of the magwell with fluorescent green paint could help me pick up the magwell out o the corner of my eyes so I don't have to come so much off target with the eyes. May sound stupid but if it helps I'll try it.

And yeah, I shoot a ton of rounds for work and keep about 4000 rounds of 45 on hand at all times. Place is starting to look like an ammo dump.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I've got a magwell on my 1911 so it's not hard to reload pretty quick if I keep my technique proper. I think possibly painting the inside left of the magwell with fluorescent green paint could help me pick up the magwell out o the corner of my eyes so I don't have to come so much off target with the eyes. May sound stupid but if it helps I'll try it.
</div></div>

Paint - yeah, whatever flavor you pick up is good enough. The biggest one in my book is work on your chops in your down time in the form of dry fire - 5 minutes a day for one year - grooved. Also as a self check - pull that chute and run the mag well naked, or if you want make it even skinnier, grab a BHP. If you're grooved naked you can be retarded and still be stellar with a chute.

Good luck

 

[SaepeExertus]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

come into your workspace 6-8 inches from your face, index the front of the magazine with your finger, don't be afraid to take your eyes of the tgt. The half second it takes to focus at the weapon in front of your face saves you the 2-3 seconds of fumbling for the mag well.

 

[harbinger]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

Bit different school of thought from me in reference to reloading before slide lock. If you still have threats in front of you and still have rounds in the magazine, why would you reload? Real world application should be apply force until the threat is neutralized or you have to reload. Reloading before the weapon is empty (combat reload) should not be the same technique as reloading an empty magazine.

Unless you carry 4 or 5 magazines with you at all times dropping a magazine with rounds still in it may not be the best idea, you may want those rounds later in the gunfight and then have to go looking for them.

If you are training for the fight that may save your life, then practice shooting till the weapon is empty, drop the magazine and forget it. If time and distance allow for a combat reload, practice switching mags and retaining the partial.

Competition shooting and combat shooting have similarities, but don't get stuck in the mindset of competition if your life depends on it.

 

[ShakyDave]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

You said you're using a 1911, as opposed to a 2011 double-stack, which would have speed loader clips for your gun belt in a different position. With the 2011 mags I spend a LOT of time adjusting the angle of each magazine so my left hand naturally flops to it with the correct grip, index finger against and pointing toward the open magazine lips and ready to insert in the magwell.

With the 1911, I think everybody pretty much uses the magazine holders generally available - at least in my years of shooting I haven't seen anything different that wasn't custom-built and very few of those. The difference is that with a conventional mag holder the mags are going to be pretty much vertical and pretty much tight against your side, so your left hand has to disengage from the weapon, drop to the magazine with the finger down the leading edge, and I hit the release button as soon as I start my left hand in motion. While the left hand is down there, the spent mag is falling free and I'm rotating the pistol at eye level so I'm looking right into the magazine well in the grip, peripheral vision keeping an eye downrange, and the left hand is coming up, and slamming the mag into the pistol.

 

[ShakyDave]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

I never shoot a competition gun dry and my exclusively competition guns have the slide lock removed. Reason being that if you slam a magazine into an open chamber, that magazine is really likely to jam or even damage your firing pin. That's why most custom USPSA Limited and Open guns don't have a slide lock.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

OK, I'll bite. How is it even remotely possible to damage the firing pin reloading at slide lock? The firing pin is retracted by the FP spring, it CANNOT be struck during a load.

Now, could you pop a cartridge up out of the feed lips and cause a double feed? Sure, but why are you striking the magazine that hard?

BTW, if you remove the slide stop from a 1911, how do you keep the slide attached to the frame?

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

Some IPSC shooters disable the slide stop to avoid an accidental lockback (for some reason, including hasty manipulations, it may happen) while there are rounds still in the mag. Since movements are choreographed you normally don't shoot it dry.

It has nothing to do with jams or damage to the firing pin.

 

[ShakyDave]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

My bad on the firing pin. I meant the ejector pin and if you think it can't get damaged just lock back a slide and take a look at it sticking out in the magazine race. 2011s are especially prone to damage and when you bend the lips on a $150.00 high cap magazine it really puts a damper on your day.


I've never damaged a bolt face but in competition with my 1911 I did jam the magazine slamming it home. It was a ten round mag without a base enlargement. I only use ten rounders with extended base now and never shoot dry.

 

[ShakyDave]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

IDPA has the rule that you're penalized if your mag hits the ground with a round left in it. USPSA allows you to swap them out at any time but the courses are usually too long to get through with even a 22 round mag, so you have to walk the course and plan your mag swaps. If you have a locked slide on an empty mag it can wreck your time.

 

[CoryT]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

Well, a long ejector, an extended magazine with a non-existant to crappy stop and an open slide would certainly be a problem. The first two items are pretty easy to fix. In a game like IDPA, the last item should take care of itself.

OTOH, treating games like preparation for an actual fight is not really good for your long term health. Since you don't get to pre-plan the fight, counting shots is pretty much a non-starter.

A reload with retention needs three things, a need to keep the current magazine, a safe place to do the exchange and the time to execute it. If you don't have all three, you speed load. About 90%+ of those loads will be because you shot the gun empty. No one is executing speed loads with ammo in the gun and bad guys in the sights. You'll be shooting till the threats are gone or the gun stops running.

The games and real life are two different things. Playing games is fine, just don't confuse the two.

 

[ShakyDave]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

Anybody who relies on a firearm to protect themselves or others and has a professional attitude will hone their skills at every opportunity. That may be in solo practice or dry firing exercises or even in competition. The only utility of competitive handgunning is that to avoid embarrasing yourself you have to practice a lot. I hate seeing competition referred to as "playing games" because those games are the best venue for shooting under stress and coping with rules is great training for shooting accurately under stress.

That said it's indisputable that a tactical match is an artificial construct, but so is a training school, a practice exercise, or a day at the range. Anything short of a target shooting back.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

Totally agree with CoryT...

Shooting games are great for honing skills, but when you start counting rounds and choreograph your every move, change mags or not for no logical reason other than the game rules, and disable things like slide stops to be more competitive, you have to ask yourself if all those thousands or repetitions made according to these rules are not going to backfire in the real world.

 

[ShakyDave]

Re: Speed reload with a 1911

I don't know any statistics or feedback between champion pistol shooters and gunfighters, because there probably aren't any. I don't see any downside whatsoever in taking any opportunity available for practicing fast draw, fast mag change, and multiple shots with sub-second splits. My LEO friends who have actually been in shooting incidents tell me that they wish their training had been more like competitive shooting because they experienced severe brain freeze at critical times, and that practicing in the range environment didn't help them with fast target acquisition and fast follow-up shots under stress.

Sorry about the drift.

For the OP, practice, practice, practice in your house in the evening. You might want to do it on a rug so you don't bang your mags up, but start slowly and perfectly, then speed it up. Do 50 or so every night and it will become second nature.