I recently built myself an AR10 with a match grade barrel and all the trimmings which I am planning on using for some long range shooting. I will eventually take a class and I do know how to calculate drop and use my scope for long distance but I dont know about Spin drift and when to compensate for it in my calculation of MOA for a shot. At what distance do I need to start adding an extra MOA or half MOA? and When I see mirage on a long distance shot. is there a typical distance mirage appears? is there a best distance to read mirage for calculating wind if I dont have any flags between the target and I? I probably need to do some reading or take a class but for now I figured I would get peoples opinions here. I have never seen a forum of such professionals. Its nice to be a part of this, even If I dont have a lot to contribute. thanks for any and all help you can give. also I would post a pic of my rifle but I dont know how....
Range Report Spin Drift and mirage reading
- Thread starter Manzgear
- Start date
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Have a look at this.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_drift-5.1.cgi
Plug in your bullet details, MV and other required items and then at the bottom you can select to include or exclude spin drift. This will enable you to get a feel for the change in MOA that you are curious about.
Have a look at this.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_drift-5.1.cgi
Plug in your bullet details, MV and other required items and then at the bottom you can select to include or exclude spin drift. This will enable you to get a feel for the change in MOA that you are curious about.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Manzgear,
Welcome to the forum.
Regarding spin drift, if you don't have a level on your rifle to eliminate cant, then don't even worry about spin drift. +/- 3 degrees of cant (which you won't detect without a level) will move you +/- 15" across the target face at 1000 yards. Spin drift is only about 1/2 that much. So unless you're eliminating the random error induced by cant, it doesn't make any sense to worry about spin drift.
As to where you should read mirage (or other wind indicators), this is a very good question and you'll get many answers (near wind, far wind, etc). However, I find the best policy is to assess each range and decide where to read wind based on that ranges unique terrain and vegetation features. Look for where the fastest wind is blowing (usually up high about 1/2 way to the target) for starters.
If you're looking at mirage without an auxiliary spotting scope, you'll have to be seeing it at the target since that's where your primary scope has to be focused. A common tool of LR competition shooters is to look thru a big spotting scope next to their shooting mat which is focused about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way to the target so the mirage is more clear there.
Lot's to learn. If you're technically inclined, the learning can be one of the most rewarding aspects of shooting. If you're not, then the learning will be very painful and sometimes expensive.
Good luck,
-Bryan
Manzgear,
Welcome to the forum.
Regarding spin drift, if you don't have a level on your rifle to eliminate cant, then don't even worry about spin drift. +/- 3 degrees of cant (which you won't detect without a level) will move you +/- 15" across the target face at 1000 yards. Spin drift is only about 1/2 that much. So unless you're eliminating the random error induced by cant, it doesn't make any sense to worry about spin drift.
As to where you should read mirage (or other wind indicators), this is a very good question and you'll get many answers (near wind, far wind, etc). However, I find the best policy is to assess each range and decide where to read wind based on that ranges unique terrain and vegetation features. Look for where the fastest wind is blowing (usually up high about 1/2 way to the target) for starters.
If you're looking at mirage without an auxiliary spotting scope, you'll have to be seeing it at the target since that's where your primary scope has to be focused. A common tool of LR competition shooters is to look thru a big spotting scope next to their shooting mat which is focused about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way to the target so the mirage is more clear there.
Lot's to learn. If you're technically inclined, the learning can be one of the most rewarding aspects of shooting. If you're not, then the learning will be very painful and sometimes expensive.
Good luck,
-Bryan
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Like humidity, the consequences of spin drift at distances like 1000yd may be something so small as to lose itself in the myriad background influences that are essentially undetectable to the normally equipped shooter.
Cant is interesting. To be more precise, it's not so much cant that disperses bullets, it's more the differences in cant between shots that causes the problem.
If the rifle is canted, as long as you can duplicate that cant across the course, you just may get results very similar to having no cant at all.
What I try to do is to keep the horizontal reticle wire perfectly parallel to a reference at the target that is essentially indistinguishable from a perfectly horizontal reference. In most cases this will be the top or bottom edge of my target.
It is not too much of a stretch to actually align the reticle wires with a corner of the target, and dial in the dope to offset the POI right over and level to the center of the X ring. This provides a more precise and repeatable reference between reticle and target than simply holding the reticle intersection to on estimated location within a larger X ring.
Greg
Like humidity, the consequences of spin drift at distances like 1000yd may be something so small as to lose itself in the myriad background influences that are essentially undetectable to the normally equipped shooter.
Cant is interesting. To be more precise, it's not so much cant that disperses bullets, it's more the differences in cant between shots that causes the problem.
If the rifle is canted, as long as you can duplicate that cant across the course, you just may get results very similar to having no cant at all.
What I try to do is to keep the horizontal reticle wire perfectly parallel to a reference at the target that is essentially indistinguishable from a perfectly horizontal reference. In most cases this will be the top or bottom edge of my target.
It is not too much of a stretch to actually align the reticle wires with a corner of the target, and dial in the dope to offset the POI right over and level to the center of the X ring. This provides a more precise and repeatable reference between reticle and target than simply holding the reticle intersection to on estimated location within a larger X ring.
Greg
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
You've got some good answers already.. just going to add another thing.
Wind at the end of your barrel is more important than wind at the target. If the wind blows your bullet as soon as it exits the barrel, the little bit the bullet moved at the end of the barrel will equal a much bigger drift when it gets to the target.
That being said, all of the wind is important and learning how to call wind is a perishable skill that needs constant work to learn it and get better at it.
If you keep that in mind and always pay close attention to the wind, you can learn how to make corrections before you send the next round instead of chasing it all day long.
You've got some good answers already.. just going to add another thing.
Wind at the end of your barrel is more important than wind at the target. If the wind blows your bullet as soon as it exits the barrel, the little bit the bullet moved at the end of the barrel will equal a much bigger drift when it gets to the target.
That being said, all of the wind is important and learning how to call wind is a perishable skill that needs constant work to learn it and get better at it.
If you keep that in mind and always pay close attention to the wind, you can learn how to make corrections before you send the next round instead of chasing it all day long.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
I hope we arn't trying to run before we learn to walk. How do you do on reduced targets at 100 yards? Are the fundamentals locked in?
That only you can answer.
As to "spin drift", Bryan pretty much covered that (better then anyone else I've seen". Forget it, you'll loose more points worrying about spin drift the you'll gain by trying to figure it out.
Let's go to mirage. No one can tell you what mirage looks like, nor can you learn by reading in a book. You can get an ideal but every one see's it different because everyone's eyes are different. What it takes is hours looking through a spotting scope. Not a rifle scope because heat coming off the barrel is going to interfer.
That very best way to learn to read mirage is a Team match. See if you can find one of the better teams and score for them. You are going to have to get right next to the other teams Coach so you can compare values of scored shots. Focus you scope 1/2 - 2/3s distance to the target. Watch the mirage, listen to what corrections the coach gives his shooters. After a bit, watch the changes, make a mental note of what changes you would make. See what the coach says, then check the next shot to see what happened. Take notes.
The more you can do this, the better you'll get a reading mirage.
You can do the same thing at individual matches. Instead of hunting up shade while wait for your relay, get your spotting scope, set it on low enough power where you can see several target frames. Watch the mirage, and what it does to the hits down range. See if you can catch the change before the shooter does.
You can learn a lot without ever firing a shot.
Might want to give this book a "look see", best $6.95 you can spend for rifle shooting.
https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/c...note5=&max=
I hope we arn't trying to run before we learn to walk. How do you do on reduced targets at 100 yards? Are the fundamentals locked in?
That only you can answer.
As to "spin drift", Bryan pretty much covered that (better then anyone else I've seen". Forget it, you'll loose more points worrying about spin drift the you'll gain by trying to figure it out.
Let's go to mirage. No one can tell you what mirage looks like, nor can you learn by reading in a book. You can get an ideal but every one see's it different because everyone's eyes are different. What it takes is hours looking through a spotting scope. Not a rifle scope because heat coming off the barrel is going to interfer.
That very best way to learn to read mirage is a Team match. See if you can find one of the better teams and score for them. You are going to have to get right next to the other teams Coach so you can compare values of scored shots. Focus you scope 1/2 - 2/3s distance to the target. Watch the mirage, listen to what corrections the coach gives his shooters. After a bit, watch the changes, make a mental note of what changes you would make. See what the coach says, then check the next shot to see what happened. Take notes.
The more you can do this, the better you'll get a reading mirage.
You can do the same thing at individual matches. Instead of hunting up shade while wait for your relay, get your spotting scope, set it on low enough power where you can see several target frames. Watch the mirage, and what it does to the hits down range. See if you can catch the change before the shooter does.
You can learn a lot without ever firing a shot.
Might want to give this book a "look see", best $6.95 you can spend for rifle shooting.
https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/c...note5=&max=
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
What Kraig said.
Go to a school BEFORE getting wrapped around the axle. Under adult supervision you can test cant, drift and wont.
What looks formidable on a chalk board can fade away in a real world scenerio where the biggest factor is the loose nut on the trigger!
Good Luck
What Kraig said.
Go to a school BEFORE getting wrapped around the axle. Under adult supervision you can test cant, drift and wont.
What looks formidable on a chalk board can fade away in a real world scenerio where the biggest factor is the loose nut on the trigger!
Good Luck
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manzgear,
Welcome to the forum.
Regarding spin drift, if you don't have a level on your rifle to eliminate cant, then don't even worry about spin drift. +/- 3 degrees of cant (which you won't detect without a level) will move you +/- 15" across the target face at 1000 yards. Spin drift is only about 1/2 that much. So unless you're eliminating the random error induced by cant, it doesn't make any sense to worry about spin drift.
As to where you should read mirage (or other wind indicators), this is a very good question and you'll get many answers (near wind, far wind, etc). However, I find the best policy is to assess each range and decide where to read wind based on that ranges unique terrain and vegetation features. Look for where the fastest wind is blowing (usually up high about 1/2 way to the target) for starters.
If you're looking at mirage without an auxiliary spotting scope, you'll have to be seeing it at the target since that's where your primary scope has to be focused. A common tool of LR competition shooters is to look thru a big spotting scope next to their shooting mat which is focused about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way to the target so the mirage is more clear there.
Lot's to learn. If you're technically inclined, the learning can be one of the most rewarding aspects of shooting. If you're not, then the learning will be very painful and sometimes expensive.
Good luck,
-Bryan </div></div>
Very interesting because if I am not mistaken, 8541's (or w/e they are called now) and Army snipers aren't using the can't devices? Do they do what Greg suggested? It just seems like a lot of error could be made due to cant and shooting at those ranges where you need the first shot to hit, you would think they would be using levels of some sort (cause Im pretty sure all the ground they shoot on isn't level) I also saw on McMillan's site Tubb's video on cant about how if it is canted to the right (even if the cross hair is on the target) the round will hit right and vice verse.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manzgear,
Welcome to the forum.
Regarding spin drift, if you don't have a level on your rifle to eliminate cant, then don't even worry about spin drift. +/- 3 degrees of cant (which you won't detect without a level) will move you +/- 15" across the target face at 1000 yards. Spin drift is only about 1/2 that much. So unless you're eliminating the random error induced by cant, it doesn't make any sense to worry about spin drift.
As to where you should read mirage (or other wind indicators), this is a very good question and you'll get many answers (near wind, far wind, etc). However, I find the best policy is to assess each range and decide where to read wind based on that ranges unique terrain and vegetation features. Look for where the fastest wind is blowing (usually up high about 1/2 way to the target) for starters.
If you're looking at mirage without an auxiliary spotting scope, you'll have to be seeing it at the target since that's where your primary scope has to be focused. A common tool of LR competition shooters is to look thru a big spotting scope next to their shooting mat which is focused about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way to the target so the mirage is more clear there.
Lot's to learn. If you're technically inclined, the learning can be one of the most rewarding aspects of shooting. If you're not, then the learning will be very painful and sometimes expensive.
Good luck,
-Bryan </div></div>
Very interesting because if I am not mistaken, 8541's (or w/e they are called now) and Army snipers aren't using the can't devices? Do they do what Greg suggested? It just seems like a lot of error could be made due to cant and shooting at those ranges where you need the first shot to hit, you would think they would be using levels of some sort (cause Im pretty sure all the ground they shoot on isn't level) I also saw on McMillan's site Tubb's video on cant about how if it is canted to the right (even if the cross hair is on the target) the round will hit right and vice verse.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Cant is a very important variable to eliminate in LR shooting. Unfortunately is't often overlooked. It's too bad; what's a level cost? $30?
Cant is a very important variable to eliminate in LR shooting. Unfortunately is't often overlooked. It's too bad; what's a level cost? $30?
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cant is a very important variable to eliminate in LR shooting. Unfortunately is't often overlooked. It's too bad; what's a level cost? $30? </div></div>
Hate to add to the "what if" list but the scope must be properly mounted, i.e., level before an anti-cant level can be effective.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cant is a very important variable to eliminate in LR shooting. Unfortunately is't often overlooked. It's too bad; what's a level cost? $30? </div></div>
Hate to add to the "what if" list but the scope must be properly mounted, i.e., level before an anti-cant level can be effective.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Of course, it has to be used properly. That should go without saying.
Of course, it has to be used properly. That should go without saying.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
So in essence mounting a scope as perfectly as possible is imperative. And thank you to all who chimed in a helped me out here. Again thats what I love about this forum. Its full of real professionals willing to help others... Is the cant from my scope not being mounted level or is it from the way I hold and shoot my rifle?
So in essence mounting a scope as perfectly as possible is imperative. And thank you to all who chimed in a helped me out here. Again thats what I love about this forum. Its full of real professionals willing to help others... Is the cant from my scope not being mounted level or is it from the way I hold and shoot my rifle?
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the cant from my scope not being mounted level or is it from the way I hold and shoot my rifle?</div></div>
The important thing is that the vertical movement of your reticle is parallel with gravity.
This is achieved by synching the level with your crosshairs, and verified by shooting up a plumb line at 100 yards (shoot to your 100 yard zero at the bottom of a plumb line, go up 10 MOA shoot another group, go up another 10 MOA, etc. The groups should all fall on the plumb line).
<span style="font-style: italic">You can accomplish this without having the scope mounted perfectly level on the rifle.</span>
There's usually not a good reason to put the scope on the rifle crooked, but it's not the critical part. The critical part is synchronizing the level with your scopes travel, and paying attention to the level when you shoot.
Of course, the level only begins to be critical beyond 600 yards. Up to around 600, you'll not incur any great error from cant if you're trying to level your crosshairs by guessing. But the farther you get past 600 yards, the more critical it becomes to pay attention to that level.
Lots of times people mistake random cant for 'mysterious' and 'unreadable' wind conditions. When I hear people talking about loosing points to wind when it's relatively calm, I can almost guarantee they don't have a level on their rifle. The lateral dispersion certainly looks like wind if you're not aware of the effects of cant at long range.
-Bryan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the cant from my scope not being mounted level or is it from the way I hold and shoot my rifle?</div></div>
The important thing is that the vertical movement of your reticle is parallel with gravity.
This is achieved by synching the level with your crosshairs, and verified by shooting up a plumb line at 100 yards (shoot to your 100 yard zero at the bottom of a plumb line, go up 10 MOA shoot another group, go up another 10 MOA, etc. The groups should all fall on the plumb line).
<span style="font-style: italic">You can accomplish this without having the scope mounted perfectly level on the rifle.</span>
There's usually not a good reason to put the scope on the rifle crooked, but it's not the critical part. The critical part is synchronizing the level with your scopes travel, and paying attention to the level when you shoot.
Of course, the level only begins to be critical beyond 600 yards. Up to around 600, you'll not incur any great error from cant if you're trying to level your crosshairs by guessing. But the farther you get past 600 yards, the more critical it becomes to pay attention to that level.
Lots of times people mistake random cant for 'mysterious' and 'unreadable' wind conditions. When I hear people talking about loosing points to wind when it's relatively calm, I can almost guarantee they don't have a level on their rifle. The lateral dispersion certainly looks like wind if you're not aware of the effects of cant at long range.
-Bryan
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also saw on McMillan's site Tubb's video on cant about how if it is canted to the right (even if the cross hair is on the target) the round will hit right and vice verse.</div></div>
Cant's change on POI is easy once you get the right picture in your head. Your crosshairs are NOT what you're aiming at, they are the "projected" impact spot on your target. You're aiming (actually the barrel is pointed) at a point high above that projected impact point. In a perfect world that actual aiming point is on your vertical reticle. When you cant your rifle, you're moving the Actual aiming point to one side. The POI will then dutifully fall the same distance from the Actual aiming point. Think of your Actual aiming point (the point the barrel is lined up with) as the top DOT on your mil-dot scope. If it's perfectly level, the POI is the middle of your crosshairs. If you cant your rifle left and right your circumscribe the top of a circle with your top mil-dot, the point of impact will therefore be an arc the same distance below that mil-dot as your crosshairs were under it when vertical. So the more cant, the more to the side, and more down the POI will be. Got it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also saw on McMillan's site Tubb's video on cant about how if it is canted to the right (even if the cross hair is on the target) the round will hit right and vice verse.</div></div>
Cant's change on POI is easy once you get the right picture in your head. Your crosshairs are NOT what you're aiming at, they are the "projected" impact spot on your target. You're aiming (actually the barrel is pointed) at a point high above that projected impact point. In a perfect world that actual aiming point is on your vertical reticle. When you cant your rifle, you're moving the Actual aiming point to one side. The POI will then dutifully fall the same distance from the Actual aiming point. Think of your Actual aiming point (the point the barrel is lined up with) as the top DOT on your mil-dot scope. If it's perfectly level, the POI is the middle of your crosshairs. If you cant your rifle left and right your circumscribe the top of a circle with your top mil-dot, the point of impact will therefore be an arc the same distance below that mil-dot as your crosshairs were under it when vertical. So the more cant, the more to the side, and more down the POI will be. Got it?
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Ok everything that you guys said makes perfect sense. Its just a common sense thing but if you never made that mistake or did and didnt know why then you wouldnt know how when or where. But essentially I understand everyone's replies. So thank you all very much. When I get to the long range shooting place I have been promised by a friend I will def post some targets. thank you everyone once again.
Ok everything that you guys said makes perfect sense. Its just a common sense thing but if you never made that mistake or did and didnt know why then you wouldnt know how when or where. But essentially I understand everyone's replies. So thank you all very much. When I get to the long range shooting place I have been promised by a friend I will def post some targets. thank you everyone once again.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
interesting discussion. for distance shooting is there one preferred level over the others. the one that attach to the rail or other offerings like the one that stick 3" above the scope when u flip it up.
does it matter at all which model. Would the fact that i have a level regardless of the model reduce the cant to such a degree that the level would correct aiming error to a point where cant wouldn't be a consideration until much farther past 1000 yrds.
Thanks
Trevor
interesting discussion. for distance shooting is there one preferred level over the others. the one that attach to the rail or other offerings like the one that stick 3" above the scope when u flip it up.
does it matter at all which model. Would the fact that i have a level regardless of the model reduce the cant to such a degree that the level would correct aiming error to a point where cant wouldn't be a consideration until much farther past 1000 yrds.
Thanks
Trevor
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
My original question though is why isn't the military using levels on there scopes if they are so cheap but yet so useful? Do they just piss excellence lol
My original question though is why isn't the military using levels on there scopes if they are so cheap but yet so useful? Do they just piss excellence lol
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Maybe no one has made one yet that costs $1674.00 each to sell the military?
They do work, maybe it's a man thing and it will make it too easy. I don't know how many of my shooting buds don't use them since they can always get their crosshairs perfectly aligned for each shot. That was said with some sarcasm. I do have one friend that don't need one at all but he's also been shooting all types of competition for over 30 years. Some can get it right but for a few $$$$$$ it sure is cheap insurance that lets you glance up and make sure it's right before the shot.
I check my level, recheck thru the scope then recheck the bubble again to make sure it's right. I for one wouldn't be without it now.
Topstrap
Maybe no one has made one yet that costs $1674.00 each to sell the military?
They do work, maybe it's a man thing and it will make it too easy. I don't know how many of my shooting buds don't use them since they can always get their crosshairs perfectly aligned for each shot. That was said with some sarcasm. I do have one friend that don't need one at all but he's also been shooting all types of competition for over 30 years. Some can get it right but for a few $$$$$$ it sure is cheap insurance that lets you glance up and make sure it's right before the shot.
I check my level, recheck thru the scope then recheck the bubble again to make sure it's right. I for one wouldn't be without it now.
Topstrap
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Some use levels, most don't. The ones I have seen are either small unit bought, or individually purchased.
Some of the reasons they don't, because stuff is constantly being traded off from one person to another, access to proper equipment to level them correctly is hard to come by, in some places they have to zero at 25m. A lot do their shooting at night under NV so you can't see it, not that they are shooting that far. Support side shooting against side mounted levels... you can't see it.
Very few shots are taken past 800m to begin with, so the benefits are not seen as easily as competition shooters see. Sure there is a trend to shoot farther happening now, but that is coming very late in the game and doesn't help when the majority of shots are around 400m
it's another thing to think about and take your mind off the target. Not everything is slow fire prone, in fact there is not a whole, whole lot of prone. Especially if you compare it to competition shooters. We have even had units request, the beyond the initial day, they didn't want any prone shots in the course, everything is alternate positions.
Consider this, very few, in fact next to no units even have chronographs. I have been with foreign units where each team had one, and US units I have been around don't have any. So you start weighing things like .25 MOA accuracy then think, what is their mission, their location, their team dynamic. So, while it is an easy fix for some, it's much harder to do for others. Range control is not as easy as saying, hey, we moved 6 scopes this week we need to rezero and re-level the bubble. They can't just walk out the door to shoot. So then it becomes a whole new training program to teach them how to do it dry as well as setting up a place to do it. Sure, units with an interest can, but then you over-estimate the degree of interest in shooting versus, say, who is on the cover of Maxim this month... you're sure to find more porn magazines than gun magazines so frankly, most are not like hobbyist who obsess over this.
it's a job, they are given a tool for the job, they do the job with what is given, end of story, let's drink beer.
Some use levels, most don't. The ones I have seen are either small unit bought, or individually purchased.
Some of the reasons they don't, because stuff is constantly being traded off from one person to another, access to proper equipment to level them correctly is hard to come by, in some places they have to zero at 25m. A lot do their shooting at night under NV so you can't see it, not that they are shooting that far. Support side shooting against side mounted levels... you can't see it.
Very few shots are taken past 800m to begin with, so the benefits are not seen as easily as competition shooters see. Sure there is a trend to shoot farther happening now, but that is coming very late in the game and doesn't help when the majority of shots are around 400m
it's another thing to think about and take your mind off the target. Not everything is slow fire prone, in fact there is not a whole, whole lot of prone. Especially if you compare it to competition shooters. We have even had units request, the beyond the initial day, they didn't want any prone shots in the course, everything is alternate positions.
Consider this, very few, in fact next to no units even have chronographs. I have been with foreign units where each team had one, and US units I have been around don't have any. So you start weighing things like .25 MOA accuracy then think, what is their mission, their location, their team dynamic. So, while it is an easy fix for some, it's much harder to do for others. Range control is not as easy as saying, hey, we moved 6 scopes this week we need to rezero and re-level the bubble. They can't just walk out the door to shoot. So then it becomes a whole new training program to teach them how to do it dry as well as setting up a place to do it. Sure, units with an interest can, but then you over-estimate the degree of interest in shooting versus, say, who is on the cover of Maxim this month... you're sure to find more porn magazines than gun magazines so frankly, most are not like hobbyist who obsess over this.
it's a job, they are given a tool for the job, they do the job with what is given, end of story, let's drink beer.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Well put Lowlight. and again thanks to all for the help. The more I get into precision shooting and long distance shooting the more I find out that I dont know. Its like reloading. I spent two years with a friend who has reloading since there ever was reloading equipment. I thought I knew enough to reload on my own but I find myself calling him to check what I am doing and have him answer even more questions than I had before. And I am sure he has forgotten more than I will ever know. but thank you all again for your insight. Keep well. MM
Well put Lowlight. and again thanks to all for the help. The more I get into precision shooting and long distance shooting the more I find out that I dont know. Its like reloading. I spent two years with a friend who has reloading since there ever was reloading equipment. I thought I knew enough to reload on my own but I find myself calling him to check what I am doing and have him answer even more questions than I had before. And I am sure he has forgotten more than I will ever know. but thank you all again for your insight. Keep well. MM
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
So basically yes, they just piss excellence lol
So basically yes, they just piss excellence lol
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So basically yes, they just piss excellence lol</div></div>
Not really, in fact I have an AAR from a Sniper who set a deployment record. <span style="font-style: italic">(One of those unofficially internal things)</span> but he documented his shots and out of more than 30+ recorded, only a few were prone and with the longer ones, of which 90% were under 800m, he wrote things like,
<span style="font-style: italic">8 targets all partially exposed, head & chest from 200m to 1100m, used wrong dope for 738m, ignored wind, adjusted shots for all 8. Position, kneeling, left handed, crouch, & prone. Stuff like that, including one that said, enemy sniper shooting from loophole in building, shots taken, running, crouching, 8.5 hour long engagement. </span>
When you're moving on patrol or land for a raid the last thing you are thinking about is your level. There are active targets, ammo management, target detection, cover, friendlies, etc. It would be like asking an new assaulter if he followed the taught and proper fundamentals of trigger control when he entered a room and engaged his first target at muzzle contact, or if he crushed the trigger from excitement.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So basically yes, they just piss excellence lol</div></div>
Not really, in fact I have an AAR from a Sniper who set a deployment record. <span style="font-style: italic">(One of those unofficially internal things)</span> but he documented his shots and out of more than 30+ recorded, only a few were prone and with the longer ones, of which 90% were under 800m, he wrote things like,
<span style="font-style: italic">8 targets all partially exposed, head & chest from 200m to 1100m, used wrong dope for 738m, ignored wind, adjusted shots for all 8. Position, kneeling, left handed, crouch, & prone. Stuff like that, including one that said, enemy sniper shooting from loophole in building, shots taken, running, crouching, 8.5 hour long engagement. </span>
When you're moving on patrol or land for a raid the last thing you are thinking about is your level. There are active targets, ammo management, target detection, cover, friendlies, etc. It would be like asking an new assaulter if he followed the taught and proper fundamentals of trigger control when he entered a room and engaged his first target at muzzle contact, or if he crushed the trigger from excitement.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Very good practical points to consider, if that's the kind of shooting you do.
It's like any other consideration you have to make: <span style="font-style: italic">does it make sense for me?</span>
If you're a competition shooter, be it tactical matches, F-class, etc, you have to decide if the benefit of a certain item is worth the effort.
A level might not be a useful tool for someone who's <span style="font-style: italic">runnin' and gunnin</span> offhand at targets out to 400 yards. But just because a level isn't right for that guy, doesn't mean you shouldn't use it if you're engaged in a more precision long range shooting application where you actually do have time to properly install and use the tool.
Just because many US military units to not have constant access to chronographs and levels certainly doesn't mean I'm gonna throw mine away!
-Bryan
Very good practical points to consider, if that's the kind of shooting you do.
It's like any other consideration you have to make: <span style="font-style: italic">does it make sense for me?</span>
If you're a competition shooter, be it tactical matches, F-class, etc, you have to decide if the benefit of a certain item is worth the effort.
A level might not be a useful tool for someone who's <span style="font-style: italic">runnin' and gunnin</span> offhand at targets out to 400 yards. But just because a level isn't right for that guy, doesn't mean you shouldn't use it if you're engaged in a more precision long range shooting application where you actually do have time to properly install and use the tool.
Just because many US military units to not have constant access to chronographs and levels certainly doesn't mean I'm gonna throw mine away!
-Bryan
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very good practical points to consider, if that's the kind of shooting you do.
It's like any other consideration you have to make: <span style="font-style: italic">does it make sense for me?</span>
If you're a competition shooter, be it tactical matches, F-class, etc, you have to decide if the benefit of a certain item is worth the effort.
A level might not be a useful tool for someone who's <span style="font-style: italic">runnin' and gunnin</span> offhand at targets out to 400 yards. But just because a level isn't right for that guy, doesn't mean you shouldn't use it if you're engaged in a more precision long range shooting application where you actually do have time to properly install and use the tool.
Just because many US military units to not have constant access to chronographs and levels certainly doesn't mean I'm gonna throw mine away!
-Bryan</div></div>
Absolutely I agree, and I am not trying to say anything to contrary, simply answering the question as to "why" military use of a level isn't more common.
I agree, if you are shooting beyond 800m, in anything other than a run & gun format there is very little reason not to use one. Especially for competitive shooters of any discipline.
Hang it if you got it...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very good practical points to consider, if that's the kind of shooting you do.
It's like any other consideration you have to make: <span style="font-style: italic">does it make sense for me?</span>
If you're a competition shooter, be it tactical matches, F-class, etc, you have to decide if the benefit of a certain item is worth the effort.
A level might not be a useful tool for someone who's <span style="font-style: italic">runnin' and gunnin</span> offhand at targets out to 400 yards. But just because a level isn't right for that guy, doesn't mean you shouldn't use it if you're engaged in a more precision long range shooting application where you actually do have time to properly install and use the tool.
Just because many US military units to not have constant access to chronographs and levels certainly doesn't mean I'm gonna throw mine away!
-Bryan</div></div>
Absolutely I agree, and I am not trying to say anything to contrary, simply answering the question as to "why" military use of a level isn't more common.
I agree, if you are shooting beyond 800m, in anything other than a run & gun format there is very little reason not to use one. Especially for competitive shooters of any discipline.
Hang it if you got it...
G
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Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Everyday I get up I find things that worked years ago, don't seem to anymore. It now seems if you don't have 20# of gizmos hanging off your stick, and your "Kit" weight is not >100 lb, you can't get the job done.
Seems as we try to reach farther we "Need" to carry more weight just for the reach? I can't get my head around needing a 17+ lb stick an 80-100lb's of gear, if the bulk of the targets are 800 an under. When did the days of getting closer and going lite stop, and today's heavy and long begin?
Everyday I get up I find things that worked years ago, don't seem to anymore. It now seems if you don't have 20# of gizmos hanging off your stick, and your "Kit" weight is not >100 lb, you can't get the job done.
Seems as we try to reach farther we "Need" to carry more weight just for the reach? I can't get my head around needing a 17+ lb stick an 80-100lb's of gear, if the bulk of the targets are 800 an under. When did the days of getting closer and going lite stop, and today's heavy and long begin?
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Yeah that's a problem I know I have. As far as, I see this gear and think I gotta have it but at the same token I am the jerk who would rather bow hunt then gun hunt and do it more primitively. Seems we all pick and choose our "battles" for when we want a new gadget or piece of equipment.
Yeah that's a problem I know I have. As far as, I see this gear and think I gotta have it but at the same token I am the jerk who would rather bow hunt then gun hunt and do it more primitively. Seems we all pick and choose our "battles" for when we want a new gadget or piece of equipment.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Much of my thinking gets a periodic massage from reading LL's posts regarding a practical approach. If I had to say what motivates me most to forego the level, it's his remarks that boil down to avoiding things that take your head/attention off the target.
This is why I reserve my 'cant' issues to methods using the reticle and environmental references I can see though the scope.
Hey, I'm the first to agree that such references are <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> 'absolutely, positively, never fail except on Monday mornings, and who gives a dang about Monday mornings anyway...' perfectly oriented to either vertical or horizontal. The point is (or should be) that they don't change between shots. So as long as I maintain the same relationship between reticle and reference from shot to shot, horizontal dispersion should be minimal.
My kind of shooting usually permits unlimited sighters, so I am not locked into depending on my elevation adjustment to track perfectly vertical. So I can find and establish valid dope without extrapolation on the knobs and depending on previous data.
As for leveling my reticle mounting to the bore, I do it without using a level. I substitute the use of levels by employing references I can be pretty sure were already leveled by somebody else, professionally.
First; I prop my rifle steady and align the butt plate screws parallel to a plumb line. If they are embedded in rubber, I insert toothpicks, etc., for reference points.
Then; I sight through the scope at a nearby house side that has siding installed. I rotate the scope until the horizontal reticle wire is perfectly parallel to the siding laps and lock down the scope rings. A recheck confirms verticality and horizontal alignment. I have installed enough house siding to recognize that a level plays a dominant part in those installations.
Flag poles, edges of building walls, and the vertical wire should work, too.
Anyhoo, it works.
Some of you have probably noted by now that a central portion of my thinking involves devising ways to achieve results with a minimalist approach. Absolutely, positively perfect? Maybe not, but 'right enough'? Usually.
Greg
Much of my thinking gets a periodic massage from reading LL's posts regarding a practical approach. If I had to say what motivates me most to forego the level, it's his remarks that boil down to avoiding things that take your head/attention off the target.
This is why I reserve my 'cant' issues to methods using the reticle and environmental references I can see though the scope.
Hey, I'm the first to agree that such references are <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> 'absolutely, positively, never fail except on Monday mornings, and who gives a dang about Monday mornings anyway...' perfectly oriented to either vertical or horizontal. The point is (or should be) that they don't change between shots. So as long as I maintain the same relationship between reticle and reference from shot to shot, horizontal dispersion should be minimal.
My kind of shooting usually permits unlimited sighters, so I am not locked into depending on my elevation adjustment to track perfectly vertical. So I can find and establish valid dope without extrapolation on the knobs and depending on previous data.
As for leveling my reticle mounting to the bore, I do it without using a level. I substitute the use of levels by employing references I can be pretty sure were already leveled by somebody else, professionally.
First; I prop my rifle steady and align the butt plate screws parallel to a plumb line. If they are embedded in rubber, I insert toothpicks, etc., for reference points.
Then; I sight through the scope at a nearby house side that has siding installed. I rotate the scope until the horizontal reticle wire is perfectly parallel to the siding laps and lock down the scope rings. A recheck confirms verticality and horizontal alignment. I have installed enough house siding to recognize that a level plays a dominant part in those installations.
Flag poles, edges of building walls, and the vertical wire should work, too.
Anyhoo, it works.
Some of you have probably noted by now that a central portion of my thinking involves devising ways to achieve results with a minimalist approach. Absolutely, positively perfect? Maybe not, but 'right enough'? Usually.
Greg
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
Use to shoot with a guy who would use a level to make sure his target was straight. He said he doesn't cant his rifle so why cant the target.
Hey it's a bullseye target for crying out loud, what differance does it make if the bull on the target is canted at 200 yards
Use to shoot with a guy who would use a level to make sure his target was straight. He said he doesn't cant his rifle so why cant the target.
Hey it's a bullseye target for crying out loud, what differance does it make if the bull on the target is canted at 200 yards
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
I align my target's top edge looking back parallel to the shooting line roof. That may allow aligning my reticle to the target edge to be more relevent.
I align my target's top edge looking back parallel to the shooting line roof. That may allow aligning my reticle to the target edge to be more relevent.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey it's a bullseye target for crying out loud, what differance does it make if the bull on the target is canted at 200 yards</div></div>
A wee bit easier to evaluate your errors when you don't hit the bullseye precisely at the center.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey it's a bullseye target for crying out loud, what differance does it make if the bull on the target is canted at 200 yards</div></div>
A wee bit easier to evaluate your errors when you don't hit the bullseye precisely at the center.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
thanks again to all who repsonded. I finally caught up with the real world and figured out how to post a pic - so this is the stick in question I have right now for my long distance shooting...
thanks again.
thanks again to all who repsonded. I finally caught up with the real world and figured out how to post a pic - so this is the stick in question I have right now for my long distance shooting...
thanks again.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just because many US military units to not have constant access to chronographs and levels certainly doesn't mean I'm gonna throw mine away!
-Bryan</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just because many US military units to not have constant access to chronographs and levels certainly doesn't mean I'm gonna throw mine away!
-Bryan</div></div>
Last edited:
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like humidity, the consequences of spin drift at distances like 1000yd may be something so small as to lose itself in the myriad background influences that are essentially undetectable to the normally equipped shooter.
Cant is interesting. To be more precise, it's not so much cant that disperses bullets, it's more the differences in cant between shots that causes the problem.
If the rifle is canted, as long as you can duplicate that cant across the course, you just may get results very similar to having no cant at all.
What I try to do is to keep the horizontal reticle wire perfectly parallel to a reference at the target that is essentially indistinguishable from a perfectly horizontal reference. In most cases this will be the top or bottom edge of my target.
It is not too much of a stretch to actually align the reticle wires with a corner of the target, and dial in the dope to offset the POI right over and level to the center of the X ring. This provides a more precise and repeatable reference between reticle and target than simply holding the reticle intersection to on estimated location within a larger X ring.
Greg
</div></div>
Greg,
Good tip on the corner alignment of the reticle. One just has to dial 1.5moa low and left/right depending on which corner you reference off of. Cool tip.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like humidity, the consequences of spin drift at distances like 1000yd may be something so small as to lose itself in the myriad background influences that are essentially undetectable to the normally equipped shooter.
Cant is interesting. To be more precise, it's not so much cant that disperses bullets, it's more the differences in cant between shots that causes the problem.
If the rifle is canted, as long as you can duplicate that cant across the course, you just may get results very similar to having no cant at all.
What I try to do is to keep the horizontal reticle wire perfectly parallel to a reference at the target that is essentially indistinguishable from a perfectly horizontal reference. In most cases this will be the top or bottom edge of my target.
It is not too much of a stretch to actually align the reticle wires with a corner of the target, and dial in the dope to offset the POI right over and level to the center of the X ring. This provides a more precise and repeatable reference between reticle and target than simply holding the reticle intersection to on estimated location within a larger X ring.
Greg
</div></div>
Greg,
Good tip on the corner alignment of the reticle. One just has to dial 1.5moa low and left/right depending on which corner you reference off of. Cool tip.
Re: Spin Drift and mirage reading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Much of my thinking gets a periodic massage from reading LL's posts regarding a practical approach. If I had to say what motivates me most to forego the level, it's his remarks that boil down to avoiding things that take your head/attention off the target.
This is why I reserve my 'cant' issues to methods using the reticle and environmental references I can see though the scope.
Hey, I'm the first to agree that such references are <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> 'absolutely, positively, never fail except on Monday mornings, and who gives a dang about Monday mornings anyway...' perfectly oriented to either vertical or horizontal. The point is (or should be) that they don't change between shots. So as long as I maintain the same relationship between reticle and reference from shot to shot, horizontal dispersion should be minimal.
My kind of shooting usually permits unlimited sighters, so I am not locked into depending on my elevation adjustment to track perfectly vertical. So I can find and establish valid dope without extrapolation on the knobs and depending on previous data.
As for leveling my reticle mounting to the bore, I do it without using a level. I substitute the use of levels by employing references I can be pretty sure were already leveled by somebody else, professionally.
First; I prop my rifle steady and align the butt plate screws parallel to a plumb line. If they are embedded in rubber, I insert toothpicks, etc., for reference points.
Then; I sight through the scope at a nearby house side that has siding installed. I rotate the scope until the horizontal reticle wire is perfectly parallel to the siding laps and lock down the scope rings. A recheck confirms verticality and horizontal alignment. I have installed enough house siding to recognize that a level plays a dominant part in those installations.
Flag poles, edges of building walls, and the vertical wire should work, too.
Anyhoo, it works.
Some of you have probably noted by now that a central portion of my thinking involves devising ways to achieve results with a minimalist approach. Absolutely, positively perfect? Maybe not, but 'right enough'? Usually.
Greg </div></div>
Also, Wheeler Industries makes a product called "level level" which aids in properly orienting your scope rotationally so your reticle aligns with x and y perfectly. A gun vise helps too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Much of my thinking gets a periodic massage from reading LL's posts regarding a practical approach. If I had to say what motivates me most to forego the level, it's his remarks that boil down to avoiding things that take your head/attention off the target.
This is why I reserve my 'cant' issues to methods using the reticle and environmental references I can see though the scope.
Hey, I'm the first to agree that such references are <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> 'absolutely, positively, never fail except on Monday mornings, and who gives a dang about Monday mornings anyway...' perfectly oriented to either vertical or horizontal. The point is (or should be) that they don't change between shots. So as long as I maintain the same relationship between reticle and reference from shot to shot, horizontal dispersion should be minimal.
My kind of shooting usually permits unlimited sighters, so I am not locked into depending on my elevation adjustment to track perfectly vertical. So I can find and establish valid dope without extrapolation on the knobs and depending on previous data.
As for leveling my reticle mounting to the bore, I do it without using a level. I substitute the use of levels by employing references I can be pretty sure were already leveled by somebody else, professionally.
First; I prop my rifle steady and align the butt plate screws parallel to a plumb line. If they are embedded in rubber, I insert toothpicks, etc., for reference points.
Then; I sight through the scope at a nearby house side that has siding installed. I rotate the scope until the horizontal reticle wire is perfectly parallel to the siding laps and lock down the scope rings. A recheck confirms verticality and horizontal alignment. I have installed enough house siding to recognize that a level plays a dominant part in those installations.
Flag poles, edges of building walls, and the vertical wire should work, too.
Anyhoo, it works.
Some of you have probably noted by now that a central portion of my thinking involves devising ways to achieve results with a minimalist approach. Absolutely, positively perfect? Maybe not, but 'right enough'? Usually.
Greg </div></div>
Also, Wheeler Industries makes a product called "level level" which aids in properly orienting your scope rotationally so your reticle aligns with x and y perfectly. A gun vise helps too.
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