Split necks and "sooty" brass?

Jason280

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 18, 2005
518
21
GA
I've been working on a load for a 20" AR15, and recently ran into an issue of split necks. All in all, I've shot around 150-200 rounds of new and reloaded ammo through the rifle. Well, over the last two range visits, I've had 9x pieces with linear splits in the neck. These aren't single splits, either, as some will have as many as three splits (with a few extending the full length of the shoulder and terminate at the case mouth).

Its important to include that these have occurred only on factory brass/factory loaded ammo. The majority of them were with Winchester 45gr HPs (the kind Wally World used to sell in 40rd boxes), with a few being red box Black Hills 68gr BTHP ammo (marked BHA Match brass). I have not had an incident of split necks with any of my reloads, which include the use of LC, WCC, PMC, Winchester, and other assorted brass. Now, I must also mention that I have shot a lot of the Winchester 45gr HP ammo through various other .223 rifles without issue. The BH match ammo has been fired in my 10FP, and no split necks were seen. IIRC, I fired one 5-shot group with the BH, with 2-3 of the cases splitting.

As you can see in the pics, the brass is also very dirty, with an almost sooty appearance. The last pic below shows how the ammo appears prior to firing, which is pretty clean. I have noticed in load development on this rifle, that the first round of five fired out of the magazine will be relatively clean, with the remaining rounds looking fairly "sooty".

So, I guess my questions are this. Any ideas on the cause of the split necks, and why is the brass this dirty? I've loaded for quite a few .223s, and don't recall seeing this with other rifles (including ARs). Is it indicative of anything? Thanks!

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Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?


If you have any more unfired, look them over carefully with a magnifying glass for very fine cracks.

I would guess that they were cracked before you fired them. The soot from the powder burn was turned loose in the chamber before the brass expanded to fill the chamber.

I have had necks with cracks that looked like yours in a 338-06 after firing. I later found cracks in that batch of unfired brass.

I understand that temperature changes will eventually work harden brass until it cracks.

Good shooting
Ron
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

Measure the base to shoulder length on an unfired case and a fired, split case.

I am suspicious of a headspace problem.

Ron makes a good point, but with the turnover rate of 223 ammo in stores the likelihood of aged, cracked brass on the shelf is a little slim. Not saying that it couldn't be that, but I'm suspicious of a headspace issue ahead of that.
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

Scary!!!

As above the soot is because of the cracks.

Do you have a GO NO GO (headspace) gauge?

I'd be on the phone to Winchester with the lot # ASAP.

~Mike
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

I had a bad batch of Winchester 22-250 that out of 150 pieces, 9-10 had neck splits on the first cycle and 3-4 had unclosed seams on their necks, not allowing me even reload them.

I'm sure BHs has used Winchester brass in the past, but don't know about the present, so it could just be a bad batch.

Winchester's QC has dropped a bit lately.

Chris
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

I am not sure how old the ammo is, but I do know I have had it for at least a couple of years (if not three or more). I've shot a lot of the Winchester 45gr ammo in various guns without a single problem. In fact, I've gone through at least three other 40rd boxes without issue. Now, each of the split cases of Winchester have come out of the same box, lot # 42TA51. I've never noticed any before, and I have fired other lot numbers of the same ammo without seeing any split necks. Of course, I have to admit that I have never checked that carefully on factory ammo.

As far as the Black Hills is concerned, I only have one box of the red box 68s. Funny thing is, and I am just now noticing it, some of the brass I have saved in the box from previous range trips are also split. In fact, over half the fired brass is cracked, and the others look suspect. I know for a fact I have fired some of this ammo in my 10FP, it seems the issue is with the brass. I have used several other boxes of blue box 75s and MK262 77gr, and haven't seen any splits.

Also, and I am not sure if this is even related, but I am seeing a few marks of cases that haven't split. They are in the same position on each case that is fired in this particular barrel, and I am not sure if this is normal or an indication of some problem. You can see them in the first pick pretty well, and they appear on every case that comes out of this rifle. I guess its possible there were a couple tiny imperfections in the chamber reaming that possibly left two small burs, I'm just not sure.

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Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

Were the marks there on cases before the splits began? I'd bet you have etched the chamber or scratched it from the defects. Winchester cases have always been hard, in my experience. This lot may have missed the annealing process after forming. That is why the military insists that the color change from annealing is not to be polished off...they want visual proof of the process. Same with Lapua...the sign of annealing is visual proof. JMHO
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Were the marks there on cases before the splits began?</div></div>

No, there were no marks on the case necks prior to firing.
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

Have you found them to split in other rifles? I think that's what I'm getting from your post.

If that's the case then the ammo is certainly suspect, if it's not doing it then the headspace is a culprit.

You could very well have a combination of both.

Try checking the headspace, if you can't do that easy enough I don't think you're going to run into a problem immediately by shooting a box of another kind of ammo through it. If they are splitting as well, even if the rate isn't as high, you know you have a headspace issue too.
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

The Black Hills ammo has been fired in another rifle, and I have found splits with this particular box as well (using the other rifle). With the box of Winchester 45gr ammo, I have not shot this particular lot number in any other rifle except the AR, and 6 or 7 out of 10 have split. I still have around 30 left, so will try them in one of my other ARs or in my 10FP.
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?


The two parallel marks look like the case dragging across the sharp edges of the barrel extension lugs during ejection of the fired case.

Chamber a empty resized case and pull the bolt back by hand while watching it; you will see it happen.

The dents around the shoulder look like debris in the chamber; if there was a defect in chambering, it would be on every case.

I assume that the brass did not have any dents before firing and that a cartridge chambered by the bolt from the magazine, not fired, but ejected by hand shows only the parallel marks.

Did you find any cracks in your unfired rounds?

Good shooting
Ron
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The two parallel marks look like the case dragging across the sharp edges of the barrel extension lugs during ejection of the fired case.</div></div>

This makes perfect sense. I have not found cracks in any unfired rounds, and I will try shooting some of the suspect Winchester ammo in another rifle.
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?


The second batch of photos- the shoulders of the cases look all funny. My vote goes to a chamber issue as well....
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The second batch of photos- the shoulders of the cases look all funny. My vote goes to a chamber issue as well....</div></div>

I did a few measurements, so hopefully someone will be able to provide a little insight. I took a few of the fired cases from the last range trip, which are PMC brass. The load was 24.5gr Varget behind 75gr BTHPs over Wolf primers, with no split necks. The outside measurement of the case necks were roughly 0.249", approximately 0.050" down the case neck from the mouth was 0.253", and the juncture of the shoulder/neck area was 0.259". I measured a few other cases that were fired in other rifles, and they don't appear to have this taper to the case neck. Honestly, I don't know what to make of this, or even if it means anything at all.

I can tell you that I have had a very difficult time finding a decent load for this rifle, and have been chasing accuracy since day one. I've tried blaming everything but the barrel, but who knows, maybe the barrel is the root of my problems.
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?


I just reread your post. You have a (whiskey)barrel shaped case mouth after firing?

You got chamber issues bro!

I sent a PM with some idea's & options.

Happy to help,
Tres
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

sometimes lots of brass are just shit... sitting on the shelf for a while and the seated bullet will cause the crack. I have seen this on a lot of .408CT It almost looks like work hardened splits, but your post doesn't indicate this. Buy new brass and throw the rest of that lot in you zombie ammo box that you don't plan to recover.

Unused load development rounds and crap factory rounds go in the zombie ammo box. This is because all zombie attacks occur at ranges less than 200 yards.
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

If they don't do it in another rifle I would say it is a neck dimension problem. What is the neck dimension? From the pics the necks don't look "right". I have seen bad reamers.
Stress relieve you necks before you reload them and fire them again and see if they crack.
They could have been shortcutted right to loading and not gone through the stress relief line where they are subjected to torches that relieve the stresses in the neck.
That would eliminate two processes, stress relief and cleaning the cases to remove the blue tint from the line.
 
Re: Split necks and "sooty" brass?

Did you check the length on the brass? I saw a piece or two that looked like they had a Lee type crimp on them. If the brass was to long it could be a pressure issue if it's trying to get in the chamber. Not all chambers are cut the same. I use a Sinclair tool to tell me how long I can let the brass go before I trim.