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SSA 308 Win brass not sizing

fortify503

Private
Minuteman
Apr 26, 2020
33
9
Greetings,
Last week when reloading on my Hornady press, I encountered something strange... All of mybrass resized just fine except for a specific brand, SSA. Now, I am pretty confident that this brass came from another shooters rifle, so I should expect some inconsistent results when compared to sizing my brass from my rifle, but this stuff wouldn't even allow me to size the case so the bullet wouldn't drop right through the neck. I did the full length size multiple times and rotated the brass even, and still nothing worked?...

I am using a Hornady Match Grade Die, I removed the decapping pin because I deprime before I clean, I am using a 0.335" neck bushing and this stuff just wouldn't budge?... How can brass that gets fully inserted into the neck bushing not be sized correctly so much so that a SMK will fall right down through the neck after? Any thoughts?

P.S. this is 308 Win brass

thanks
 
Also, unless you're neck turning, I'd still leave the expander ball in. If you don't have unform neck thickness, you're going to get inconsistent tension due to an inconsistent diameter.
 
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Also, unless you're neck turning, I'd still leave the expander ball in. If you don't have I inform neck thickness, you're going to get inconsistent tension due to an inconsistent diameter.

Pardon my ignorance on terminology but by neck turning do you mean neck trimming? I put all brass through my trimming station too regardless of length after neck sizing just to make sure the .308 nub on the trimming mill end can seat into the brass properly. Should I still aim to leave the expander ball in to ensure uniform neck thickness? In my mind this was double checked by the trimming station nub being able to fit into the neck of the brass after the neck sizing.

When seating the round does this not help ensure a uniform neck tension on the bullet if I know its been sized to 0.335" OD and the nub in the trimming station fits into the ID hole of the brass?

man the things I didn't think I would need to think about.... Sorry for any confusion
 
Do you have a smaller bushing? Neck thickness isn't the same brand to brand. Maybe its significantly thinner than what you're normally using.

I don't have a smaller bushing but Im confused how brass can be inserted into a 0.335" neck bushing and come out with a larger inner diameter than other rounds?.. This just comes down to the neck thickness then huh?

I will also note this is a brand new setup so these were my first batch of rounds. I have been using my buddies press before this without any problems but his utilizes a die that doesn't use bushings, its just a single set size Hornady Die
 
I don't have a smaller bushing but Im confused how brass can be inserted into a 0.335" neck bushing and come out with a larger inner diameter than other rounds?.. This just comes down to the neck thickness then huh?

I will also note this is a brand new setup so these were my first batch of rounds. I have been using my buddies press before this without any problems but his utilizes a die that doesn't use bushings, its just a single set size Hornady Die

Yes, it's about the thickness of the necks. If the neck walls of the SSA cases are thinner than the others, that bushing of yours will leave the inside diameter larger than the other cases even though the outside diameter is sized to the same. So, to compensate for the thinner neck wall, as smaller bushing than your .335 will make the outside AND inside diameter smaller.
 
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Pardon my ignorance on terminology but by neck turning do you mean neck trimming? I put all brass through my trimming station too regardless of length after neck sizing just to make sure the .308 nub on the trimming mill end can seat into the brass properly. Should I still aim to leave the expander ball in to ensure uniform neck thickness? In my mind this was double checked by the trimming station nub being able to fit into the neck of the brass after the neck sizing.

When seating the round does this not help ensure a uniform neck tension on the bullet if I know its been sized to 0.335" OD and the nub in the trimming station fits into the ID hole of the brass?

man the things I didn't think I would need to think about.... Sorry for any confusion
No, turning is taking it off of the necks outside circumference in effect making the entire neck thinner and more uniform. You dont need to worry about this, people dont waste the time on junky brass.
1589833054330.png


Trimming is just taking the length off the end of the mouth.


I would still leave the expander ball in if you arent using any external neck sizing mandrels etc, especially with different lots of brass all being used.




I don't have a smaller bushing but Im confused how brass can be inserted into a 0.335" neck bushing and come out with a larger inner diameter than other rounds?.. This just comes down to the neck thickness then huh?

I will also note this is a brand new setup so these were my first batch of rounds. I have been using my buddies press before this without any problems but his utilizes a die that doesn't use bushings, its just a single set size Hornady Die
Yes, if the the potentially thinner ssa brass isnt thick enough to make up the difference in diameter then it wont be sized.But I doubt its coming out of the die larger...







So what I want to know is what is the outside diameter of the fired ssa brass neck according to your calipers? If its less than .355 then of course it wont be getting sized and is just passing through freely.




Personally I would just toss it, its trash brass from someone elses rifle, you are already finding out that its not worth it to fix others trash.
 
Yes, it's about the thickness of the necks. If the neck walls of the SSA cases are thinner than the others, that bushing of yours will leave the inside diameter larger than the other cases even though the outside diameter is sized to the same.

Duly noted. I'm not sure what prompted me to approach every case as if it were this "one universal size" i've been treating it as, but I will throw that mentality out the window. Thanks so much
 
No, turning is taking it off of the necks outside circumference in effect making the entire neck thinner and more uniform. You dont need to worry about this.
View attachment 7329792

Trimming is just taking the length off the mouth.

I would still leave the expander ball in.





Yes, if the the potentially thinner ssa brass isnt thick enough to make up the difference in diameter then it wont be sized.







So what I want to know is what is the outside diameter of the fired ssa brass neck according to your calipers? If its less than .355 then of course it wont be getting sized and is just passing through freely.




Personally I would just toss it, its trash brass from someone elses rifle, you are already finding out that its not worth it to fix others trash.

Great to know, and great point, thank you!
 
Pardon my ignorance on terminology but by neck turning do you mean neck trimming? I put all brass through my trimming station too regardless of length after neck sizing just to make sure the .308 nub on the trimming mill end can seat into the brass properly. Should I still aim to leave the expander ball in to ensure uniform neck thickness? In my mind this was double checked by the trimming station nub being able to fit into the neck of the brass after the neck sizing.

When seating the round does this not help ensure a uniform neck tension on the bullet if I know its been sized to 0.335" OD and the nub in the trimming station fits into the ID hole of the brass?

man the things I didn't think I would need to think about.... Sorry for any confusion

Neck "trimming" typically referees to trimming the case to length. Neck turning referres to shaving the necks to a given thickness.

Neck tension is referring to the difference in the outside neck diameter before seating a bullet and afterwards. Because the neck walls can have various thicknesses from one side to the other, you can get a neck tension variation as you measure the outside of the neck . . . particularly if you using an expanding mandrel to size your neck as it moves these variations to the outside. But I feel that's a GOOD thing so that you're more apt to have better concentricity of a seated bullet. If the neck thickness varitations are moved to the inside, then that will cause issues with that concentricity.

PS: I'm not a fan of leaving the expander ball in, especially when using a bushing die. Typically, it creates too much run out for me.
 
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since brass necks are not uniform, neck turning essientially mills down the outside diameter of the neck so it is uniform. Basically, if you want to use a bushing without the expander ball in the die, you have to make sure you're sizing a uniform neck. The bushing should be sized to bring the neck down so the expander just kisses it on the way out to set the neck diameter.

You're buddy's die is a normal full length sizer. Some people don't like them because it squishes the case down a lot more.
 
Neck "trimming" typically referees to trimming the case to length. Neck turning referres to shaving the necks to a given thickness.

Neck tension is referring to the difference in the outside neck diameter before seating a bullet and afterwards. Because the neck walls can have various thicknesses from one side to the other, you can get a neck tension variation as you measure the outside of the neck . . . particularly if you using an expanding mandrel to size your neck as it moves these variations to the outside. But I feel that's a GOOD thing so that you're more apt to have better concentricity of a seated bullet. If the neck thickness varitations are moved to the inside, then that will cause issues with that concentricity.

PS: I'm not a fan of leaving the expander ball in, especially when using a bushing die. Typically, it creates too much run out for me.

Whether its on the inside or the outside, imperfections in the neck will effect runout. I personally think people take that stuff way to seriously. Runout doesn't tell someone the whole story. You can have zero and have innacruate ammo.
 
So i was able to manually crimp the necks with pliers into a sort of squarish shape, then I resized the brass' necks, trimmed and the bullets finally seated properly... It didn't seem like it took extra force to seat them, however, I realize hand loading like this will probably null any consistency I've had with the rounds I've been cookin up... do you think this is a safe to fire bullet though? essentially it seems like i worked the inner diameter of the neck so it was small enough to now "properly" seat the bullet. I put properly in quote because I don't know if there's anything proper about what I just did? Im planning on taking them apart and just throwing the SSA brass away but im curious on your thoughts?
 
So i was able to manually crimp the necks with pliers into a sort of squarish shape, then I resized the brass' necks, trimmed and the bullets finally seated properly... It didn't seem like it took extra force to seat them, however, I realize hand loading like this will probably null any consistency I've had with the rounds I've been cookin up... do you think this is a safe to fire bullet though? essentially it seems like i worked the inner diameter of the neck so it was small enough to now "properly" seat the bullet. I put properly in quote because I don't know if there's anything proper about what I just did? Im planning on taking them apart and just throwing the SSA brass away but im curious on your thoughts?



Yea that's weird lol. Just get a smaller bushing if you want to save the brass. Its not a big deal
 
So i was able to manually crimp the necks with pliers into a sort of squarish shape, then I resized the brass' necks, trimmed and the bullets finally seated properly... It didn't seem like it took extra force to seat them, however, I realize hand loading like this will probably null any consistency I've had with the rounds I've been cookin up... do you think this is a safe to fire bullet though? essentially it seems like i worked the inner diameter of the neck so it was small enough to now "properly" seat the bullet. I put properly in quote because I don't know if there's anything proper about what I just did? Im planning on taking them apart and just throwing the SSA brass away but im curious on your thoughts?

This confirmed what I thought was the problem. How did you initially figure out what bushing size to get for the brass you're using? Why a .335". What brass are you using?

Have you ever used a bushing die before?

Lots of people are here to help you (including me), but we need to see what your reloading experience is and if you have a good grasp of the reloading fundamentals. You may have gotten ahead of yourself going to a bushing die without knowing how to use it and how to determine how to pick a bushing size.

Because of all of the different brass types I use, I have bushings in .337" (Federal GMM) .335" (Remington and L.C.) .333" Hornady and. 331" (for older Winchester brass). Only reason I have so many is because all of my brass was free, once fired out of Police bolt guns. I've never had to pay for 308 brass.

Honestly, you crimping the case necks into a "squarish shape" with pliers is one of the most fucked up things I've ever read on a reloading forum.
 
So i was able to manually crimp the necks with pliers into a sort of squarish shape, then I resized the brass' necks, trimmed and the bullets finally seated properly... It didn't seem like it took extra force to seat them, however, I realize hand loading like this will probably null any consistency I've had with the rounds I've been cookin up... do you think this is a safe to fire bullet though? essentially it seems like i worked the inner diameter of the neck so it was small enough to now "properly" seat the bullet. I put properly in quote because I don't know if there's anything proper about what I just did? Im planning on taking them apart and just throwing the SSA brass away but im curious on your thoughts?
Itll work, its just a dumb ass way to go about it instead of just taking proper measurements to identify and fix the problem.

That fact that the only measurement you have provided is whats printed on the bushing Im going to guess that you dont have a pair of calipers and that you arent taking any actual measurements. If so thats a big mistake. Buy these https://www.amazon.com/iGaging-ABSOLUTE-Digital-Electronic-Caliper/dp/B00INL0BTS?th=1

Then buy this so that you can measure the brass shoulders and how much set back you are sizing them https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-HK66-Lock-N-Load-Headspace-Gauge/dp/B000PD5VN8

Then come back with these measurements- your answer is in your numbers.
76320043-3F1A-4AEE-A945-06A9C4ED9044.jpeg

As you can see, my sizing die isnt a good match for my chamber as the base isnt getting sized and is staying the same size as fired.
I measured and identified my problem, now you do the same with your necks.
 
This confirmed what I thought was the problem. How did you initially figure out what bushing size to get for the brass you're using? Why a .335". What brass are you using?

Have you ever used a bushing die before?

Lots of people are here to help you (including me), but we need to see what your reloading experience is and if you have a good grasp of the reloading fundamentals. You may have gotten ahead of yourself going to a bushing die without knowing how to use it and how to determine how to pick a bushing size.

Because of all of the different brass types I use, I have bushings in .337" (Federal GMM) .335" (Remington and L.C.) .333" Hornady and. 331" (for older Winchester brass). Only reason I have so many is because all of my brass was free, once fired out of Police bolt guns. I've never had to pay for 308 brass.

Honestly, you crimping the case necks into a "squarish shape" with pliers is one of the most fucked up things I've ever read on a reloading forum.

hahaha :LOL: honestly I probably needed to hear that last part. Its probably a lot less worse than one could imagine but ultimately I disassembled those 5 cartridges last night with a kinetic bullet puller. Usually it would take a few good whacks to disassemble bullets I pressed on my buddies hornady full length sizing die/press, but these 5 "effed up square crimped" ones took one half-ass blow to drop them out of the neck so I'm glad I listened to you guys and took them apart/ just tossed the brass...

For the bushing size, I measured the outside diameter of a few rounds I loaded using my buddies press(i know these work great in my rifle but I don't know what size his die is) and whether or not this is actually a best for my rifle is a mystery to me?... I've only been reloading for a year, mostly on his press/die and now for only a month on my own setup. Anyway, I measured the outside diameter of a few rounds cooked up on his press that I know to work well in my rifle( Aero Precision M5E1 20" barrel) and then subtracted around 0.004" for the neck tension/brass spring-back and arrived at 0.335"-0.336" and opted for the smaller of the two. Does this seem like an odd size bushing die? Too big? Too small? Or you're just making sure there was some thought behind it and I didn't just point and choose one in the middle of the range of sizes?

I am definitely learning everyday still, but it breathes a lot of clarity to know each brand of brass has to be treated respectively. I mainly use MEN-16 and IMI (that all have the cross hair stamped on them) but lately I've been collecting anyone's at the range who doesn't reload if its a solid brand that I can confirm.

my brass collection from over the years ranges from FC, Winchester, L.C., IMI, MEN-16, Hornady, Federal, Remington, ADI and some others.... I suspect I will need to get to some measuring and buy bushings with respect to all of their neck thicknesses/ my desired size.

P.S. the way I understand it is that Hornady only manufacturers their dies in the bushing style now because its cheaper for them to produce a single size die that accepts multiple different bushing sizes then to produce completely sized dies for each respective neck size in each cartridge... That's what I understood from their rep anyway, and alas, this is why I have a bushing die
 
Itll work, its just a dumb ass way to go about it instead of just taking proper measurements to identify and fix the problem.

That fact that the only measurement you have provided is whats printed on the bushing Im going to guess that you dont have a pair of calipers and that you arent taking any actual measurements. If so thats a big mistake. Buy these https://www.amazon.com/iGaging-ABSOLUTE-Digital-Electronic-Caliper/dp/B00INL0BTS?th=1

Then buy this so that you can measure the brass shoulders and how much set back you are sizing them https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-HK66-Lock-N-Load-Headspace-Gauge/dp/B000PD5VN8

Then come back with these measurements- your answer is in your numbers.
View attachment 7330554
As you can see, my sizing die isnt a good match for my chamber as the base isnt getting sized and is staying the same size as fired.
I measured and identified my problem, now you do the same with your necks.

Oh, I actually do own a pair of calipers! These are the things you fire out the end of your barrel in order to figure your rifle's caliber, right?.. jkjk

All jokes aside, your first point is well taken and that's why I'm here. so in your chart above, those are all well understood except "Exp"... is that expected? does that suggest you expected to achieve 0.0015" difference from sized to seated but you actually achieved .006"?...

Also, why wouldn't that be a good sizing die for your chamber then? doesn't that work the brass less and give it longer lifespan? Or are you focussing on how the neck is relatively the same?... or all around the entire round is pratty much the same size?...

Ill probably need to dig into some studying more about case sizing so I don't bother you guys with too many reloading 101 questions
 
All jokes aside, your first point is well taken and that's why I'm here. so in your chart above, those are all well understood except "Exp"... is that expected?
That is "expanded". An easy general rule of thumb is that you want your finished sized brass to be~ .002 smaller than a loaded round, aka you want .002 of interference fit between the brass and the bullet. The amount of interference fit is one variable you can use for load tuning but thats way into the benchrest point of diminishing returns. For you we just need to make functional quality ammo before we dive into the deep end.

My sizing die on that example is a standard non full length sizing die with no bushing, so I cant control how much the neck is sized. With the expander ball removed the die body itself sizes my outside neck diameter down to .265 which would result in .006 of interference fit, if I were to seat a bullet directly into that it would function fine but it would be a bit more interference fit than I would like and could possibly deform the bullet.

Because of that your sizing die comes equipped with a steel expander ball. When the expander comes back up through the now sized down neck it will force the neck to open up. The expanders are generally that .002 below bullet diameter goal we aim for so that all brass will have the same internal diameter (provided its getting sized down enough in the first place which is your issue it seems).


SO lets make some examples for your situation:
You have a bushing that is .335 on its inside diameter, that means it will size the brass necks outside diameter down to .335 minus any material spring back (spring back is always towards the direction it was sized from)
Your bullet is .308"
So if we subtract .308 from your .335 bushing diameter we get .027 of space in between the two. That is the space around the bullet that would be filled with brass, aka your case neck. Because the diameter is all the way across the entire round that means we have both sides of the neck accounted for here. .027 divided by 2 equals .0135 which is how thick the case necks would have to be to get any sizing at all.

If your case necks are only .012 thick, like many are, then we get .308+.012+.012=.332 That is smaller than your bushing is so even though the bushing will size its outside diameter down some from fired it wont be far enough for the thinner case necks inside diameter to hold the bullet like it should.




So, we want the bushing to be at least .002 smaller than your loaded round diameter.
I like to go .004 below the loaded round diameter and then get let the expander open it up to the final .002" below loaded round diameter. I believe that if there are inconsistencies in the case neck thickness then sizing down pushes the thicker parts more to the inside and then expanding back open pushes the thicker parts back to the outside presenting a nice circle on the inside of the neck to interface with the bullet.
If you have good brass that doesnt have any inconsistencies in the thickness then the benefit to the extra sizing and expansion step are moot as there are no inconsistencies to consider.
Some people believe that the bullet will push all of those inconsistencies to the outside itself and that a .002 below loaded neck diameter bushing alone with no expansion is all thats needed. I cant offer any empirical evidence to the contrary but I still like the logic of the above.





(The reason I said my die wasnt a good match for my chamber isnt from the neck, its due to the base of the case where .4695 stays the same .4695, its not getting sized any so its the same size as the chamber and makes for tough operation because Im having to muscle it to fit instead of being sized properly and fitting freely. But you can see I take all of the measurements and I can see where any conflicts are happening.)
 
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That is "expanded". An easy general rule of thumb is that you want your finished sized brass to be~ .002 smaller than a loaded round, aka you want .002 of interference fit between the brass and the bullet. The amount of interference fit is one variable you can use for load tuning but thats way into the benchrest point of diminishing returns. For you we just need to make functional quality ammo before we dive into the deep end.

My sizing die on that example is a standard non full length sizing die with no bushing, so I cant control how much the neck is sized. With the expander ball removed the die body itself sizes my outside neck diameter down to .265 which would result in .006 of interference fit, if I were to seat a bullet directly into that it would function fine but it would be a bit more interference fit than I would like and could possibly deform the bullet.

Because of that your sizing die comes equipped with a steel expander ball. When the expander comes back up through the now sized down neck it will force the neck to open up. The expanders are generally that .002 below bullet diameter goal we aim for so that all brass will have the same internal diameter (provided its getting sized down enough in the first place which is your issue it seems).


SO lets make some examples for your situation:
You have a bushing that is .335 on its inside diameter, that means it will size the brass necks outside diameter down to .335 minus any material spring back (spring back is always towards the direction it was sized from)
Your bullet is .308"
So if we subtract .308 from your .335 bushing diameter we get .027 of space in between the two. That is the space around the bullet that would be filled with brass, aka your case neck. Because the diameter is all the way across the entire round that means we have both sides of the neck accounted for here. .027 divided by 2 equals .0135 which is how thick the case necks would have to be to get any sizing at all.

If your case necks are only .012 thick, like many are, then we get .308+.012+.012=.332 That is smaller than your bushing is so even though the bushing will size its outside diameter down some from fired it wont be far enough for the thinner case necks inside diameter to hold the bullet like it should.




So, we want the bushing to be at least .002 smaller than your loaded round diameter.
I like to go .004 below the loaded round diameter and then get let the expander open it up to the final .002" below loaded round diameter. I believe that if there are inconsistencies in the case neck thickness then sizing down pushes the thicker parts more to the inside and then expanding back open pushes the thicker parts back to the outside presenting a nice circle on the inside of the neck to interface with the bullet.
If you have good brass that doesnt have any inconsistencies in the thickness then the benefit to the extra sizing and expansion step are moot as there are no inconsistencies to consider.
Some people believe that the bullet will push all of those inconsistencies to the outside itself and that a .002 below loaded neck diameter bushing alone with no expansion is all thats needed. I cant offer any empirical evidence to the contrary but I still like the logic of the above.





(The reason I said my die wasnt a good match for my chamber isn't from the neck, its due to the base of the case where .4695 stays the same .4695, its not getting sized any so its the same size as the chamber and makes for tough operation because Im having to muscle it to fit instead of being sized properly and fitting freely. But you can see I take all of the measurements and I can see where any conflicts are happening.)


This is pure gold. Thanks so much! Although I feel like I was aware of everything talked about here, for some reason I made the rookie move of treating all brass the same, albeit from a bag of 250 cases 6 were the oddball SSA. This break down and then summation of all the measurements helped point out this needs to be done for all neck thicknesses respectively. I went ahead and ordered that head space gauge too to cover all my bases.

With respect to these being for a gas system gun, Im thinking that .004" for neck tension below loaded should be my aim? Is you 0.002" below for a bolt gun? Thanks so much again
 
Lots of people who shoot gas gun like more tension like the .004 you mention to avoid the recoil in the mag from seating them inadvertently.

I only rarely shoot my ar15 and it’s mainly thermal at night at like 50 yards so I really haven’t bothered looking into anything in depth accuracy wise at all for a gas gun.
 
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Lots of people who shoot gas gun like more tension like the .004 you mention to avoid the recoil in the mag from seating them inadvertently.

I only rarely shoot my ar15 and it’s mainly thermal at night at like 50 yards so I really haven’t bothered looking into anything in depth accuracy wise at all for a gas gun.

Thank you for all the input. I will upload my progress soon, right now Im messing with different neck bushing... I want to assume pushing the shoulder .006" is a little too much in most cases??
 
It’s more than necessary. Some people go further than that because they like to go to saami minimum spec each time. It will work, just leads to shortened case life.