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Sslaughter in Norway

Maggot

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jul 27, 2007
    25,934
    29,230
    Virginia
    More insanity. Condolances to the Norweigen people.

    Norway attack: at least 80 die in Utøya shooting, seven in Oslo bombing
    Scale of massacre at summer camp on island becomes clear after police discover more victims of Norwegian gunman

    A Norwegian dressed as a police officer killed at least 80 people at an island retreat, police said early on Saturday. It took investigators several hours to begin to realise the full scope of the massacre, which followed an explosion in Oslo that killed seven and that police say was set off by the same suspect.

    Police initially said about 10 people were killed at the camp on the island of Utøya, but some survivors said they thought the toll was much higher. Police director Øystein Mæland told reporters early on Saturday they had discovered many more victims.

    "It's taken time to search the area. What we know now is that we can say that there are at least 80 killed at Utøya," Mæland said. "It goes without saying that this gives dimensions to this incident that are exceptional."

    Mæland said the death toll could rise even more. He said others were severely injured, but police did not know how many were hurt.

    A suspect in the shootings and the Oslo explosion was arrested. Though police did not release his name, Norwegian national broadcaster NRK identified him as 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik and said police searched his Oslo apartment overnight.

    A police official said the suspect appears to have acted alone in both attacks, and that "it seems that this is not linked to any international terrorist organisations". The official spoke on condition of anonymity because that information had not been officially released by Norway's police.

    The official said the attack "is probably more Norway's Oklahoma City than it is Norway's World Trade Center."

    The motive was unknown, but both attacks were in areas connected to the ruling Labour party government. The youth camp, about 20 miles northwest of Oslo, is organised by the party's youth wing, and the prime minister had been scheduled to speak there on Saturday.

    The blast in Oslo left a square covered in twisted metal, shattered glass and documents expelled from surrounding buildings. Most of the windows in the block where the prime minister, Jens Stoltenberg, and his administration work were shattered.

    The police official who spoke on condition of anonymity said the Oslo bombing occurred at 3.26pm local time, and the camp shootings began one to two hours later. The official said the gunman used automatic weapons and handguns, and that there was at least one unexploded device at the youth camp that a police bomb disposal team and military experts were disarming.

    Seven people were killed by the blast in Oslo, four of whom have been identified. Nine or 10 people were seriously injured.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    All of Europe has eliminated the Death Penalty, and for them "Life" means no more than 30 years, so this guy will someday be released onto the street.
    Germany or Italy or somebody had a Terrorist who murdered Americans and others in prison, and when he maxed out instead of honoring a detainer to the US, or even notifying us, they put him on a plane home to Syria or Jordan
    or someplace. Happened just recently.
    So this young guy, regardles of who or why or how many he killed, will serve no more than 30 years total.
    Europe may want to reconsider thier ideas about "Justice" after this. The guy killed about 80 kids, on a little island, while dressed as a cop, and even shot them in the water as they desperately tried to swim away, after he set off a massive carbomb in the downtown of the National Capitol, where they give out the Nobel Peace Prize.
    But no death penalty, and no more than 30 years in jail, and a nice, humane Norwegian jail at that.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    I hope our Norwegian members families and friends are safe and sound. Your Citizens are in our thoughts and prayers.

    Hope they water board and hang this terrorist! I'm sure we could lend some personnel proficient in hard interrogations if asked. Unfortunately, he will end up in some summer camp like Scandinavian prison for a few years. Tired already with the right-wing,left-wing, religious, insert cause here_______, psychopaths who kill innocent civilians!
    mad.gif
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    I just saw a video clip about it on Yahoo News. My thoughts and prayers are also with the victims of this horrifc act of domestic terrorism.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of Europe has eliminated the Death Penalty, and for them "Life" means no more than 30 years, so this guy will someday be released onto the street.
    Germany or Italy or somebody had a Terrorist who murdered Americans and others in prison, and when he maxed out instead of honoring a detainer to the US, or even notifying us, they put him on a plane home to Syria or Jordan
    or someplace. Happened just recently.
    So this young guy, regardles of who or why or how many he killed, will serve no more than 30 years total.
    Europe may want to reconsider thier ideas about "Justice" after this. The guy killed about 80 kids, on a little island, while dressed as a cop, and even shot them in the water as they desperately tried to swim away, after he set off a massive carbomb in the downtown of the National Capitol, where they give out the Nobel Peace Prize.
    But no death penalty, and no more than 30 years in jail, and a nice, humane Norwegian jail at that. </div></div>
    i did some quick research and it looks like 21 years is the most he can serve for this...sickening!
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    this sucks
    frown.gif



    I have one question though - Have they figured out how the bombing is tied to the shooting on the island? (Of course they must be) some group responsible?
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This helps restore my faith in human decency. </div></div>

    Agreed. Not because he wore a uniform, but because he risked himself to save those he didnt know and who probrably could never thank him. Valor. Its own reward.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    This is why you should always be armed. When seconds count, the SWAT team is only 30 minutes away.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: benchmstr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    i did some quick research and it looks like 21 years is the most he can serve for this...sickening! </div></div>


    Yes and no.
    The max regular prison terms are 21 and normally released when they have served 2/3.
    But in this case you can bet he'll get an added sentence called "forvaring" in Norwegian. "involuntary commitment" might be the best English term for it. Its added to dangerous criminals and those thought to be a special repeat offenders. This is also limited to max 21 years but unlike normal prison terms, this can be extended in up to 5 year increments indefinitely if Prosecutors charge and convict him in lower courts.
    So he might die in prison.

    strange he didn't kill himself like most such maniacs do.... he surrendered immediately when SWAT arrived and called out.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    I'm having a hard time wraping my head around this because it is so horrific. I mean, kids at summer camp?! I don't even know what to say...
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mustafa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm having a hard time wraping my head around this because it is so horrific. I mean, kids at summer camp?! I don't even know what to say... </div></div>

    Well it was some sort of political summer camp which is why the guy targeted them.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Might be a good idea for Norwegian police officers to start carrying firearms.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Might be a good idea for Norwegian police officers to start carrying firearms. </div></div>

    Or all people...
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Might be a good idea for Norwegian police officers to start carrying firearms. </div></div>

    Or all people... </div></div>

    But cowering in fear is so effective....

    Really, you know they will come to the opposite conclusion, and they are already barking up that tree.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    I still have extended family over there, & I hope they are all OK. My thoughts, & prayers go out to all those effected by this mad man. There is a special place in Hell reserved for people like that. I hope he gets to see it verry soon.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Norway has mandatory Military Service, pretty much for life. Or at least they did when I was there. You did active duty, then reserve, then Home Guard. You kept your uniforms, equipment, and personal weapons at home. Guys even had M48 tanks in the barn, with ammo in crates alongside, and the neighbors were the crew. Machine Gunners had their MG42 and ammo in the closet of their home. So I wonder if this guy was a reservist who used his issue weapons, like a P-38 and a G3, to do this.
    I sure hope not.
    I expect the # of dead will break 100, as they will be collecting bodies from the water for weeks.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mustafa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm having a hard time wraping my head around this because it is so horrific. I mean, kids at summer camp?! I don't even know what to say... </div></div>

    Well it was some sort of political summer camp which is why the guy targeted them. </div></div>
    What I heard is that he is a right wing extremist and the camp was for the Norwegian "bluecollar workers", liberally translated, a socialist party that is currently the biggest party in Norway.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Terrible. Despicable. And Sick. It breaks my heart to imagine the sorrow of the families.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trying to wrap my head around killing 80 people? Just such a large number using only small arms. </div></div>

    7 in Oslo, and the rest on the Island. The # will likely exceed a hundred. That tool a lot of time and effort, to stalk frightened kids around a island and shoot them, often at close range while they cowered in fear.
    He sure didn't consider what he was doing was wrong, and their pleas had no effect.
    This was a extrordinarally deliberate mass murder.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    I read he had never had any military training, and had been "Exempted from Military Service". That could have been a medical condition, but he appears to be physically healthy. For religious reasons about the only way he could have gotten out of it over a decade ago wa to be a Jehovah's Witness or something close.
    But he was in a gun club, and had a pistol and rifle at least. they say he had a automatic rifle, but where he got that would be a good question.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trying to wrap my head around killing 80 people? Just such a large number using only small arms. </div></div>

    Yeah that a huge number but the police didn't show up for 90 minutes and it was on a super small island so... It would have been like shooting fish in a barrel and we're talking about a lot of kids here who probably couldn't have made the swim to the main land.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Norway is a good country.

    IF they would only allow concealed carry...

    I feel bad for that country.

    WE as the USA are damn lucky we've not had a skilled madman yet.
    We've had crazy people but they never seem to carry through more than a few shots, or someone stops them...

    Norway had a skilled madman and no way to stop him.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    http://www.norwaynews.com/en/~view.php?72U68540O54833u285Hpl844SP3885P076ADm453P4p8

    Quote from above story "Anti-fascist monitors meanwhile said Behring Breivik was also a member of a Swedish neo-Nazi Internet forum named Nordisk, which hosts discussions on topics ranging from white power music to political strategies for crushing democracy."

    This also contains a link to "2083 A European Declaration of Independence.pdf " The manifesto of the "Christian" fundamentalist right wing shooter.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Just heard in the news he was using a M1A and a Glock 18C and he had more than one hour before the police arrived.

    Been to Norway many times, great country and the most friendly people I've ever met. I live in a port town with a direct ferry line to Oslo and still can't believe what happened. I thought about traveling to Oslo in my holidays when I heard the news...
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Prayers for the people of Norway.. the news is terrible but hopefully this will bring around good changes not changes that take even more rights away from the law abiding people.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    We've had members here in this forum who thought it was a GOOD thing that Pakistani men were killing baby girls in preference for boys and these members see themselves as moral people.

    Religious fundamentalism whether Christian, Hindu, Muslim mixed in with an overdose of political extremism and racism means any action, however heinous, can be self-justified, condoned and even viewed heroic.

    As it seems to me, tyrants target the unsuspecting, the defenseless and vulnerable. Thank God for the USA, the Second Amendment and at least the chance to stand my ground if the wolves become the majority and vote me and mine to become their dinner.

    A terrible event, a time for mourning and also one to wake up and see the enemy of freedom doesn't always come from far off lands speaking a different language and believing in a different God.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Norway had a skilled madman and no way to stop him. [/quote]



    really??? mcveigh was pretty skilled and racked up a higher score. not to mention the various serial killers weve had over the years. just sayin
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Religious fundamentalism whether Christian, Hindu, Muslim mixed in with an overdose of political extremism and racism means any action, however heinous, can be self-justified, condoned and even viewed heroic.

    As it seems to me, tyrants target the unsuspecting, the defenseless and vulnerable. Thank God for the USA, the Second Amendment and at least the chance to stand my ground if the wolves become the majority and vote me and mine to become their dinner.

    A terrible event, a time for mourning and also one to wake up and see the enemy of freedom doesn't always come from far off lands speaking a different language and believing in a different God. </div></div>

    Having no problems with doing bad things is not unique to religious zealots, The most anti-religion people ever (Communists) had no problem with killing tens of millions to achieve their goals, Stalin didn't care about 30+ million dead, Mao thought he was just great at 60+ million dead.

    The issue is that morality is always and has always been subjective, so anyone who decides to justify what they want to do in their own mind, can usually find some excuse to fit, be it religion, race, political affilation, nationality, development level, the greater good, a better society, and so on.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Religion & Politics - It shouldn't be long now.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <span style="font-size: 14pt"> <span style="color: #CC0000"> UPDATE</span> </span>

    This monster planned this out well. First the bomb to distract and delay police, then dum dums. Im usually against the death penalty but today I make an exception. Any way to ship him here for trial. Virginia will put a needle in his arm. Texas usually gets it done quicker.


    By SHAWN POGATCHNIK - Associated Press | AP – 33 mins agotweet5EmailPrintHONEFOSS, Norway (AP) — The gunman who slaughtered dozens of campers at a Norwegian island retreat used special bullets designed to disintegrate inside the body and cause maximum internal damage, the chief surgeon at a hospital treating victims said Sunday.

    Dr. Colin Poole, head of surgery at Ringriket Hospital in Honefoss northwest of Oslo, told The Associated Press that surgeons treating 16 gunshot victims have recovered only tiny fragments on bullets from victims' bodies, adding that the exit wounds were unusually small and weak.

    "These bullets more or less exploded inside the body. All the energy of the bullets was deposited inside the tissue," Poole said. "They inflicted internal damage that's absolutely horrible."

    The 32-year-old Norwegian gunman, Anders Behring Breivik, opened fire on the island, killing at least 83 people. Seven others were killed in a bomb blast in Oslo hours before the shooting. Breivik's lawyer claims the suspect acted alone in both attacks.

    Ballistics experts say dum-dum bullets are lighter in weight and can be fired with greater accuracy over varying distances. They commonly are used by air marshals and hunters of small animals.

    Poole, a surgeon for 26 years at the hospital, said the bullets were "hyper-fragmentable" and produced confusing pictures on X-rays.

    "It's caused us all kinds of extra problems in dealing with the wounds they cause, with very strange trajectories," he said. "The effect they cause inside the body is like a thousand pin pricks."
    <span style="font-size: 14pt"> </span>
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: W54/XM-388</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Religious fundamentalism whether Christian, Hindu, Muslim mixed in with an overdose of political extremism and racism means any action, however heinous, can be self-justified, condoned and even viewed heroic.

    As it seems to me, tyrants target the unsuspecting, the defenseless and vulnerable. Thank God for the USA, the Second Amendment and at least the chance to stand my ground if the wolves become the majority and vote me and mine to become their dinner.

    A terrible event, a time for mourning and also one to wake up and see the enemy of freedom doesn't always come from far off lands speaking a different language and believing in a different God. </div></div>

    Having no problems with doing bad things is not unique to religious zealots, The most anti-religion people ever (Communists) had no problem with killing tens of millions to achieve their goals, Stalin didn't care about 30+ million dead, Mao thought he was just great at 60+ million dead.

    The issue is that morality is always and has always been subjective, so anyone who decides to justify what they want to do in their own mind, can usually find some excuse to fit, be it religion, race, political affilation, nationality, development level, the greater good, a better society, and so on. </div></div>

    Great point, thanks.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Religion & Politics - It shouldn't be long now. </div></div>

    The religious context - extremism - is relevant due to the perceived motives of the killer. It's not a religious or political debate, but aspects of why this psycho did what he did and also why other's are OK with committing acts just as terrible. There's a difference.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    EH, I know there's a difference.
    But someone will come along and muck it up. Just wait and see.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Religion & Politics - It shouldn't be long now. </div></div>

    The religious context - extremism - is relevant due to the perceived motives of the killer. It's not a religious or political debate, but aspects of why this psycho did what he did and also why other's are OK with committing acts just as terrible. There's a difference. </div></div>

    Exactly. The issue is extremism and trying to find justification for horrific acts through some sort of convenient interpretation of a set of beliefs and its scriptures. As long as your beliefs include letting others live in peace so that they can follow their own bliss, everything is fine. It's when people begin to believe that theirs should be the only flavor of expression when it comes to the "Great Questions" that we need to act in defense.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EH, I know there's a difference.
    But someone will come along and muck it up. Just wait and see.
    </div></div>

    Got it. No offense intended.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    It's naive in the extreme to believe that issues like these you've presented can be discussed without reference to politics and religion. In this horrendous event, let's take a look at what a discussion would look like:

    "32 year old male killed 93 people, some of whom were young adults on an island."

    There you go!

    When, however, one introduces the notion of "why" did that 32 year old male do that, well, goodness me, there is NO F"G WAY to do that without introducing the politics and religion. Just ain't possible!!
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    It occurs to me after my previous post that there is a way to introduce a (relatively) "politics and religion free" element to this forum, and that would be to pull out the "Bear Pit" and the "2A" sub-forums. That ought to take care of 90% of it.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: copdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It occurs to me after my previous post that there is a way to introduce a (relatively) "politics and religion free" element to this forum, and that would be to pull out the "Bear Pit" and the "2A" sub-forums. That ought to take care of 90% of it. </div></div>

    Yes, but then shankster wouldn't be able to freely post a hefty topic so your idea just won't happen.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SurgeonPredator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just heard in the news he was using a M1A and a Glock 18C and he had more than one hour before the police arrived.
    </div></div>


    he used a Ruger Mini 14 with a lot of tacticool gadgets, and a Glock, probably a 17 or 19. No 18 as those are banned and he used a legally acquired gun.
    And the newspaper are already talking about the "super-lethal, terrible, evil dum-dum bullets he specially selected"
    Anyone see where this is heading?
    sick.gif


    Timeline:
    It took approx 60-90min from first shot until his arrest. SWAT took 35-40 to get there due to distance and already being deployed for the bombing
    Local police was notified about the shooting at 1727, first patrol arrived at 1752 and are waiting for a boat. 1803 notified that a boat in enroute. 1809 SWAT arrives and gets to the island at1825. madman arrested at 1827.


    Now at 93 killed in the bombing and shooting
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cardinal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SurgeonPredator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just heard in the news he was using a M1A and a Glock 18C and he had more than one hour before the police arrived.
    </div></div>


    he used a Ruger Mini 14 with a lot of tacticool gadgets, and a Glock, probably a 17 or 19. No 18 as those are banned and he used a legally acquired gun.
    And the newspaper are already talking about the "super-lethal, terrible, evil dum-dum bullets he specially selected"
    Anyone see where this is heading?
    sick.gif


    Timeline:
    It took approx 60-90min from first shot until his arrest. SWAT took 35-40 to get there due to distance and already being deployed for the bombing
    Local police was notified about the shooting at 1727, first patrol arrived at 1752 and are waiting for a boat. 1803 notified that a boat in enroute. 1809 SWAT arrives and gets to the island at1825. madman arrested at 1827.


    Now at 93 killed in the bombing and shooting </div></div>

    Are there no rotary wing assets in Norway?
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cardinal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SurgeonPredator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just heard in the news he was using a M1A and a Glock 18C and he had more than one hour before the police arrived.
    </div></div>
    No 18 as those are banned and he used a legally acquired gun.
    </div></div>

    Glock 18s are pretty much banned the world over, but that hasn't stopped criminals from obtaining them. There was a case a couple years back about a gangster in England arrested and being in posession of one.

    Read that over a couple of times, there is a big ole' nugget of irony in there.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Police have a helo but that wasn't available and is also too small and not really suitable for SWAT in the eyes of the higher ups. For those jobs they usually go to the Air Force and the Bell 412SP's of 720 Sq (think of it as Norway's 160 SOAR).
    But in this case they made the decision to drive instead of waiting for the AF. It was approx 35-40km drive.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    I read on Foxnews that he "used dum-dum bullets that basically explode inside the body". Sounds like he was using some form of ballistic tip / Vmax type ammo.

    Hopefully our elected stupidass gun-haters don't get any ideas to restrict our rights more from this.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Perhaps a lightweight, low penetration bullet is what they use at his gun club, to reduce the wear on the range. He sure wan't using FMJ's with those wound descriptions.
    There is a picture floating around of him with a descrpition as a right wing Templar uniform or something. It looks like a USMC Dress Blue Enlisted Blouse to me, and he has a chest full of ribbons, which to my eye include ribbons for the Vietnam Service, a Purple Heart, A Navy Cross, a Bronze Star, and maybe even a Victoria Cross! Naturally the order is off.
    Here's the picture.
    www.liveleak.com/view?i=c2e_1311546531
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    Dum Dum is just an older name for hollow point which the media doesn’t understand.

    I kind of wonder about how many people in northern Europe are closeted white supremacists. It seems like there is way too much concern about the 2% or so of the population which are Muslims. A very large percentage of Muslims children don’t even keep the religion in those counties when they grow up. Apparently a lot of the children at the camp were from the Middle East.
     
    Re: Sslaughter in Norway

    That's why I don't belief half the stuff the news report...

    Saw the pics they released of the pimped rifle, guess the news made it a bit more dramatic, to fuel the anti-gun attitude over here.

    Thanks for the info, cardinal.