Staball and Harrells 50 charges

[Feniks Technologies]

We’re all always looking to for ways to spend less time loading and more time shooting. Well most of us.

StaBALL has been fairly easy to find in comparison to many powders. Being a ball powder, it should meter well out of a volume throw.

We have a Harrells BR Premium thrower. We did a 50 charge test to see what kind of error we would be working with before seeing what that looks like on chrono.

Here are the results for anyone interested:

Scale: Fx120i
Thrower: Harrells BR Premium
Number of Charges: 50

Target Weight: 34.00 gr

Average Charge Weight: 34.01 gr
Lowest Charge Weight: 33.88 gr
Highest Charge Weight: 34.22 gr

SD: 0.07 gr
ES: .42 gr

 

[918v]

That’s about what my BR-30 does.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Dave, is that with the baffle installed or removed?

I've noticed with my Harrell's (Little BR model) that I get about a .1 difference with the baffle installed. I drop a little over 34gr for a BR/105-107 combination.

ES and SD are low enough to lay waste to a 4" plate at 800yds.

AA-2230C (14tw, 58-75gr bullets) flows through it like water and I can't record any measurable difference on a beam scale. (I don't trust the Chargemaster scale to give me an accurate reading)

My buddy @8pointer shoots Staball and drops charges with an RCBS Uniflow.
It's consistent enough to make hits on a 36"x36" plate and an IPSC at the mile.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Dave, is that with the baffle installed or removed?

I've noticed with my Harrell's (Little BR model) that I get about a .1 difference with the baffle installed. I drop a little over 34gr for a BR/105-107 combination.

ES and SD are low enough to lay waste to a 4" plate at 800yds.

AA-2230C (14tw, 58-75gr bullets) flows through it like water and I can't record any measurable difference on a beam scale. (I don't trust the Chargemaster scale to give me an accurate reading)

My buddy @8pointer shoots Staball and drops charges with an RCBS Uniflow.
It's consistent enough to make hits on a 36"x36" plate and an IPSC at the mile.

Baffle should be install. Took it out the box as is and went to town.

What kind of results did you see without the baffle?

It’s brand new for me, so I’m sure I have to learning to do with it.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Dave, is that with the baffle installed or removed?

I've noticed with my Harrell's (Little BR model) that I get about a .1 difference with the baffle installed. I drop a little over 34gr for a BR/105-107 combination.

ES and SD are low enough to lay waste to a 4" plate at 800yds.

AA-2230C (14tw, 58-75gr bullets) flows through it like water and I can't record any measurable difference on a beam scale. (I don't trust the Chargemaster scale to give me an accurate reading)

My buddy @8pointer shoots Staball and drops charges with an RCBS Uniflow.
It's consistent enough to make hits on a 36"x36" plate and an IPSC at the mile.

Also, the 34.22 was definitely an outlier. The highest that repeated a bit was 34.12.

The StaBALL seems “sticky” as far as not always falling completely out of cup or funnel.

So I could have easily had some kernels left behind.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Baffle should be install. Took it out the box as is and went to town.

What kind of results did you see without the baffle?

It’s brand new for me, so I’m sure I have to learning to do with it.

It'll get more consistent after getting a few pounds run through it.
A few of the guys from AS say they are much better without the baffle. They even go so far as to say the fill percentage of the bottle makes a difference.

I never bothered to test to confirm or disprove that.

I use the baffle in mine.

I'll see if I can find the thread(s).
BRB

 

[Feniks Technologies]

It'll get more consistent after getting a few pounds run through it.
A few of the guys from AS say they are much better without the baffle. They even go so far as to say the fill percentage of the bottle makes a difference.

I never bothered to test to confirm or disprove that.

I use the baffle in mine.

I'll see if I can find the thread(s).
BRB

I kept the fill the same.

I figured it was possible the fill would affect the “weight” on the powder filling the meter.

But not looking for ridiculous precision from this setup. More interested in a bit better than “good enough” combined with speed. So I didn’t bother testing things like fill and speed of operating the flow.

For practical shooting, I feel like it’s plenty fine.

 

[Mike Casselton]

This Bart fella says to take it out.

Link to the most recent thread:

You are being redirected...

forum.accurateshooter.com

Gonna go looking for the powder measure tests that Boyd did a few years ago.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I kept the fill the same.

I figured it was possible the fill would affect the “weight” on the powder filling the meter.

But not looking for ridiculous precision from this setup. More interested in a bit better than “good enough” combined with speed. So I didn’t bother testing things like fill and speed of operating the flow.

For practical shooting, I feel like it’s plenty fine.

Totally agree. It's about as simple as it gets.

Prime 50 cases, set them in a loading block and chunka, chunka your way across the block. Seat projectiles. Go shooting.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Can't find the tests Boyd worked on.
It could have been on BR central...



Posts #5 & 6 are worth reading.

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forum.accurateshooter.com

 

[atepointer]

I kept the fill the same.

I figured it was possible the fill would affect the “weight” on the powder filling the meter.

But not looking for ridiculous precision from this setup. More interested in a bit better than “good enough” combined with speed. So I didn’t bother testing things like fill and speed of operating the flow.

For practical shooting, I feel like it’s plenty fine.

I use one of @Mike Casselton old Uniflows(and everything else on my bench!) with a baffle and it's extremely accurate....occasionally put some graphite powder through the Uni and it's sooooo smmoov. Dead on to a needle width on Redding beam every single time which works out to + or - .02g on my cheap little digital. I'm not a highly experienced reloader, but I'll just say from what I'm experiencing on the firing line nothing I put in the chamber is holding me back from progressing. I do not enjoy reloading and time is something I can't get enough of so I'm not looking to find ways to spend more time at the reloading bench. Yay stayball!

 

[Schütze]

I use one of @Mike Casselton old Uniflows(and everything else on my bench!) with a baffle and it's extremely accurate....occasionally put some graphite powder through the Uni and it's sooooo smmoov. Dead on to a needle width on Redding beam every single time which works out to + or - .02g on my cheap little digital. I'm not a highly experienced reloader, but I'll just say from what I'm experiencing on the firing line nothing I put in the chamber is holding me back from progressing. I do not enjoy reloading and time is something I can't get enough of so I'm not looking to find ways to spend more time at the reloading bench. Yay stayball!

Now I’m on to your little “secret” regarding you shooting better than me, Mike’s equipment and Stabal….

 

[atepointer]

Now I’m on to your little “secret” regarding you shooting better than me, Mike’s equipment and Stabal….

First off I don't shoot any better than you! But.....once you stop shooting factory loads and custom tweak a hand load for that Bartlein you are going to kick yourself for having waited when you see how much more performance was there just waiting on ya. I didn't fully understand it when Mike told me....until I relented. Seriously though as we've discussed b/f staball has been amazing for me. 30 year old low tech uniflow, $5 baffle and an equally old Redding beam scale. Ain't gotta be complicated to work really well.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Also, the 34.22 was definitely an outlier. The highest that repeated a bit was 34.12.

The StaBALL seems “sticky” as far as not always falling completely out of cup or funnel.

So I could have easily had some kernels left behind.

^^^
I missed this response last night.
Sticking in the funnel could be caused by not having it fully seated into the collet.

I always turn mine upside down to install the drop tube.
Also, use the largest ID tube you can use without causing the neck of the cartridge to insert into the tube.
My 3/16 tube hangs up with Varget sometimes.

 

[CK1.0]

I have been using Sta-Ball for a while now, and while I haven't recorded my wieghts over a bunch of charges, I bet my SD/ES numbers falll right in line with yours... and I'm only using a ~$50 Lyman Brass Smith powder measure.

Originally I had started dropping straight into cases because the scale I had at the time was shitty and it would drive me crazy (only 0.1gr resolution, when it wasn't drifting all over the place), would take f'ing forever to load 100 rounds. So after a while I said "fuck the scale" and just decided I'd use my chrono to see how I was doing: single digit SD's in the 7-9 range.

These days I have fancy scale (0.001g/0.02gr resolution) and granite surface plate setup, so now I drop charges into a pan, weigh them, and trickle up "old skool style"... I'd say ~70%+ of my drops are dead on or within 0.02gr, so I only really trickle the ~30% that aren't perfect. SD's in 5-7 range going this route (so maybe not even worth the trouble).

Even with weighing/trickling, powder for 100rds, all of them +/- 0.02gr, takes me ~10mins.

My number is going to be up any day now for the AT4 and I don't even know if I'm going to bother..? My buddy has one, and even if you ignore all the time spent messing with it, his loading time is still probably double what mine is.

I still think H4350/H4831SC/RL16 are all better as far as temperture insensitivity, and if I can score enough of that stuff I'll need the AT4 so I don't end up going crazy.. but IDK, Sta-Ball has made life pretty easy, I might not be able to go back to the stick powders at this point lol.

 

[spife7980]

 

[atepointer]

Sta-Ball has made life pretty easy, I might not be able to go back to the stick powders at this point lol.

The chances you see me use a trickler and scale again are equal to that of StaBall being discontinued. I knew I was sold on the ease and simplicity of reloading, but once I saw how it performed down range I sold my 2 1/2 jugs of 4350 to a buddy and never looked back!

 

[CK1.0]

Yeah, there isn't a whole lot of upside in being OCD enough to trickle every single charge of ball powder to the 0.002gr... but, I guess the point I was trying to make (but didn't really make lol) is: even doing it that way, it's still ridiculously easy and fast.

FWIW, it's not as bad as it sounds, it's a completely different thing than trickling up with stick powder (which I loathe). It's not nearly the chore it sounds like.

It's more like taking a little more time because "I feel like it". There's really not a whole lot of extra effort involved other than an extra 5 minutes or so of my time.

More than half of the drops are dead on +/- 0.02gr, and (with my measure at least) most of the ones that aren't dead nuts are usually 0.1gr or less under, and with the less frequent ones that are over, same thing (never more than 0.1gr over, usually less) so I just dump a tiny bit out into the trickler and keep it moving. I'd guess trickling up the ones that are under takes 4-5 seconds, the "overs" take an extra ~2-3 seconds. The ball powder flows like water out of the trickler and is super easy to control. I don't think I ever turn the trickler knob more than a few complete turns in order to be dead nuts within +/- 0.02gr.

Is it necessary? If you've got a decent/consistent powder measure, probably not.

For me it's just an ongoing experiment, because it seems with most powdered "ingredients", whether it be in chemistry, baking, or (in this case) ball powder, there does seem to be some debate as to whether: volume, or weight, yields the most consistent result? As far as I can tell, most tend to lean towards weight being more accurate/consistent, so that's what I've been seeing for myself...

...doesn't mean I won't say "fuck this" and go back to dropping it straight into cases again... works pretty awesome that way too, and sometimes an extra 5 minutes is 5 minutes too long lol!

 

[atepointer]

Yeah, there isn't a whole lot of upside in being OCD enough to trickle every single charge of ball powder to the 0.002gr... but, I guess the point I was trying to make (but didn't really make lol) is: even doing it that way, it's still ridiculously easy and fast.

FWIW, it's not as bad as it sounds, it's a completely different thing than trickling up with stick powder (which I loathe). It's not nearly the chore it sounds like.

It's more like taking a little more time because "I feel like it". There's really not a whole lot of extra effort involved other than an extra 5 minutes or so of my time.

More than half of the drops are dead on +/- 0.02gr, and (with my measure at least) most of the ones that aren't dead nuts are usually 0.1gr or less under, and with the less frequent ones that are over, same thing (never more than 0.1gr over, usually less) so I just dump a tiny bit out into the trickler and keep it moving. I'd guess trickling up the ones that are under takes 4-5 seconds, the "overs" take an extra ~2-3 seconds. The ball powder flows like water out of the trickler and is super easy to control. I don't think I ever turn the trickler knob more than a few complete turns in order to be dead nuts within +/- 0.02gr.

Is it necessary? If you've got a decent/consistent powder measure, probably not.

For me it's just an ongoing experiment, because it seems with most powdered "ingredients", whether it be in chemistry, baking, or (in this case) ball powder, there does seem to be some debate as to whether: volume, or weight, yields the most consistent result? As far as I can tell, most tend to lean towards weight being more accurate/consistent, so that's what I've been seeing for myself...

...doesn't mean I won't say "fuck this" and go back to dropping it straight into cases again... works pretty awesome that way too, and sometimes an extra 5 minutes is 5 minutes too long lol!

I've experimented with different tempos on the Uniflow for drop consistency and if I tried to be sloppy could get up to .05 variance, but done methodically and carefully it's .02 at most. So after that I just set the measure and left it. Drop powder in, tap it to settle around baffle and start chunk chunka chunka filling cases. Seat to hard jam and this Proof shoots like a mofo just went over 2800 rounds last week.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Weight is absolutely more consistent.

The question is, is the difference in performance from less consistent volume noticeable for the intended purpose.

Short range BR and such shows us it’s not for that game. Long range BR uses other methods. So does 1k F open,

Disciplines in between like practical/steel shooting……all depends on distance and target size.

 

[Choid]

I've been messing with this on and off over the last year, though with a Johnson's Quick Measure, as I can run it straight off my 550. Results are very good. Even powders like 4064 and RL16 will throw with a SD of .1 grains or so, and obviously ball is much better. Moreover, my velocity SDs between autotricklering RL16 and throwing it on the press are negligible, less than 5 fps difference in SD, and this is going from an extreme spread of basically zero with the AT to about .35 grains with the RL16.

It all comes back to measuring what is important vs measuring what is easiest to measure. I find that, within reason ammo wise, the number of rounds I get to put down range in a year is the most important thing for me to be measuring.

 

[CK1.0]

It’s been many months since I got in line, but got the magic email saying my AT4 is ready to go (if I still want it).

Almost can’t believe it, but I don’t think I’m going to end up taking delivery…

I loaded another 100rds yesterday to within +/- 0.02gr in ~15mins… and after reading through pages and pages of the thread on the AT4, with guys messing with little 3D printed parts and shims to make their new $1000 powder dropper work almost as good as my ~$50 powder measure already does… I think I’d actually rather continue loading the way I’ve been doing it.

Instead of the AT4, maybe I’ll treat myself to a Harrell’s and another 24lbs of StaBall lol.