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Gunsmithing stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

A

aggiesig

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 12, 2009
425
1
Seguin, TX
www.sara-tx.org
specifically looking for a .260 build. I have an obermeyer barrel on order from bugholes and I'm planning on dropping this into a AICS 2.0 stock that my LTR is sitting in (keep your eyes on the classifieds in the next few weeks for that one to fund this project)

I figure I'm better off starting all over and selling my LTR, does anyone have input on differences between Stiller Tac-30 and a Surgeon 591 action?

From what I see they are both top notch, but the surgeon has an integral recoil lug and rail, and it costs more.

What am I missing?
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

What are the wait times for barrel and action.All the stuff is quality. Just consider the wait times. Can be a deal breaker just my imput.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Never used a Stiller and just bought a Surgeon. I have not received it so I can't say much there either. I have read a lot here and don't think you can go wrong with either of them.
BTW, it wouldn't be wrong if you decided to build on the R700 action and sell off the left over parts. After a little truing and lapping they are still great actions.
My experience is with the Badger M2008 action. I have three and they are great. Only thing about them in the minus column is they are a bit heavier than the others.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

The Surgeon also has a one piece bolt and integrated recoil lug.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

I'd run the 591 and not look back. I've seen handles come off the Stiller Tac 30, the 591 is one piece.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???


I would get a Defiance , with the AW mag well cut , end of story , and of course run std 10rd AW mags .

Later Chris
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

If you don't want to spend the extra between the Stiller and 591 look at the Surgeon RSR. That's the direction I went. Plus I like blasted stainless...gray...which the RSR is.

I'm going after a M2008 next...
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

They are right with what they said with the Surgeon actions. They are one piece with both the action and bolt. I have a Stiller Tac300 action and it is very well built. If you want to save the extra money from the surgeon, then the Stiller isn't a bad way to go. You can always use the money for a NF FFP or other upgrades on the action, like a trigger from Jewel. My stiller is going into an Eliseo RTM stock. Nice part is if I want to change.. all I have to do is pull it and put the 20MOA rail on it and throw it in a regular stock. Just my .02
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Aggiesig, have you ever shot a 591 build? If so you would know the answer. I have owned a Stiller action build and for the $ I have no complaints but compaired to the 591 (I cant speek for the RSR) I do see the justification in the extra $. I have not had a chance to shoot a Defiance action yet, but I like the looks of them and too may of the premier smiths are having their actions built by Glen. But in the end you will not go wrong with any of these choices.
My vote is the 591.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

+1 for the Surgeon
I have two builds. Actually one of then Preston at Surgeon built(and is the best shooting rifle I have shot) and the other I built. They have both integral recoil lugs and integral 20moa rail on top. One piece bolt.
Seriously, in my opinion if you can swing it the surgeon is the way to go.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

The integrated 20moa rail could be a bad thing. If you want another 10 or 20 moa of cant, you'll need to spend a couple 100 on rings with cant built in. May not be an issue but something to consider.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Bat,Defiance,Surgeon are all good(I own all 3). I'd take a rem700 over a Stiller though.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

i have a stiller predator. that i could not he happier with. when i ordered the action i didn't think i was in any hurry. i got a chance to take the rifle on a short notice hunt and stiler got my action to me a few weeks early when i called and explained the situation. ive never owned any other custom actions and after the customer service and preformance of stiller i wont.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

They are both great actions, and both companys have excellent customer service. I do business with Stiller mostly. I recently met Preston from Surgeon at Shot Show, and can tell you that he is as good as people get. The Surgeon actions are great, just cost a bit more. The bolt handle on the Stiller coming off part is no longer a problem. This is one of the improvements they recently made to their actions. Someone mentioned Defiance, also a great action, with probably the best extraction in the group. You would make no mistake with any of these. Good luck.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Aren't the Templar actions made by defiance? I am going with a 591 this month and am just waiting for a stock to be completed. I have a M2008 which is also very nice.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Chevy vs Ford vs Chrystler vs Pontiac vs. . .
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Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

I have several Stillers and they work great. I would love to add a Surgeon to my safe but until they start making some lefty models, guess it just ain't gonna happen. Are you listening Surgeon?
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

All our actions now have a true billet one piece handle or the wrap design for the next few months on some actions. Both are equally strong and will NEVER come apart. We are also offering the cut for the AW mag. As for extraction, I think ours are second to none as both the bolt and the body are cut on a fourth axis with matching cnc code and truly match and have more surface area to reduce wear. I dont think you can go wrong with one.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Now you know why I chose Stiller for my custom actions.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

..

With any mentioned, there is no "one is better than the other" just "one of those better than all the others."

.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chevy vs Ford vs Chrystler vs Pontiac vs. . .
smile.gif



</div></div>

Pontiac is clearly the best.
grin.gif
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The integrated 20moa rail could be a bad thing. If you want another 10 or 20 moa of cant, you'll need to spend a couple 100 on rings with cant built in. May not be an issue but something to consider. </div></div>

With most modern scopes having a TON of internal adjustment (100 or more MOA vertical) exactly what can't you do with a 20MOA rail?

Unless you are trying to get to 1,500 yards with your pet sub-sonic load, most current optics will get the job done when straddling a 20moa. Probably bunches of scenarios I'm not thinking about but I'm open to learning.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

thank you for the info guys, I just wanted to double check and make sure I wasn't overlooking something critical, with my stock/action combo!
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

I had a Surgeon built and received it early 2010. I had it put into an A5, 260, etc....standard build but i will tell you I wont ever buy another rifle unless it is built by those guys. I am shooting F-class (1000yds) on occasion and believe me the rifle shoots way better than i could ever hope to consistently shoot. I shot several 0.2 MOA groups in load development alone. As you can tell i am sold on Surgeon....Top Quality
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

i have seen stiller actions and bolts being built first hand...AND have shot both actions.....its all good,,,really!
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

vs.???

Check out Bighorn actions. Will be building on one very soon.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Nothing at all against Stiller. They're world class and give nothing up on accuracy. Great company and I'd love one.

However, the Surgeon is almost in a category it's own in the sense that it really looks the part of a metal sculpture designed to function as a rifle. Preston's actions are just downright beautiful work.

Someday
laugh.gif
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The integrated 20moa rail could be a bad thing. If you want another 10 or 20 moa of cant, you'll need to spend a couple 100 on rings with cant built in. May not be an issue but something to consider. </div></div>

With most modern scopes having a TON of internal adjustment (100 or more MOA vertical) exactly what can't you do with a 20MOA rail?

Unless you are trying to get to 1,500 yards with your pet sub-sonic load, most current optics will get the job done when straddling a 20moa. Probably bunches of scenarios I'm not thinking about but I'm open to learning. </div></div>

With a 45 moa base on my 338 edge, I will be able to engage the 2200 yd target at TVP without using holdovers. It's close but, my PH will do it.

I'd rather not use hold overs if I can help it and with a Murphy Precision rail, you can get whatever cant, you want. Great place to deal with by the way.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

I recall a conversation with Jered/APA when I was trying to decide between the two. I went with a Surgeon 591 and have been very glad about it. The extra cost isn't bad when you weigh the benefits of those great straight Surgeon actions.

Jason
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Goin Hot,
I totally understand that there are specialty long range rigs built with a lot of MOA in their mounting rails. These are almost exclusively chambered for rounds like your Edge.

The OP was wanting to discuss actions for the .260Rem which is a totally different animal. Most people shooting the .260 Rem may occaisionally want to shoot at targets as close as 100yards. We have seen many rigs with 30-45moa specialty bases that can't be zeroed inside 2 or 300 yards because their high X scopes don't have enough internal adjustment to get there.

My NXS scopes have over 100 minutes of internal on the Z-axis. That combined with a 20 moa base will get the .260 out to any place it can reasonably be asked to play, including TVP. If I am not mistaken, Tom Sarver has a .260 Rem with this setup and he isn't hobbled in the least.

Most people shooting ultra long range are using scopes with higher than usual X range. Regardless of manufacturer, all of the scopes with high X offer considerably less vertical or Z-axis internal adjustment than their midrange X brothers. So the issue becomes setting up the rig only for long range (like your 45moa base) with the understanding that you can't even dial your zero down to normal close ranges.

What scope are you running? Can you zero close w/o hold unders?

I'm sorry I chased this topic into the corner. I'm sure the OP wasn't looking for that and I apologize.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Terry,

I really don't think this is off topic at all. I know Tom engages the mile target at TVP with his 260. This is where the OP may get some value out of running a 30 moa base depending on the internal travel of the scope he desires to run. If he's running a MK4, he'll appreciate the additional 10 moa from a 30 moa base. Personally, i'd rather have too many options than none.

I'm running a PH 5-25 zeroed at 300 which puts me about 2.75" high at 100 yds. That zero causes no issues for me at all.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 71firebird400</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chevy vs Ford vs Chrystler vs Pontiac vs. . .
smile.gif



</div></div>

Pontiac is clearly the best.
grin.gif
</div></div>

INDEED! I miss my car. . .
frown.gif


DSC_0046.jpg


DSC_0031-1.jpg


DSC_0007-5.jpg


DSC_0002-4.jpg
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Calculating required scope elevation:

Assumption: the scope in question has equal amounts of elevation adjustment up and down when the reticle is centered in the tube.

If that is the case, the scope with total elevation X had X/2 available up, and X/2 available down.

To establish a short-range zero - 100 meters or yards - takes a bit more than 4 MOA.

So, from a flat base, a scope with X MOA total elevation has available about X/2 - 4 MOA of elevation it can dial up, assuming, that is, the base holes are aligned with the bore so that windage adjustment to establish the short-range zero will not limit the elevation travel near the limit.

Example: All of the 2011 Leupold Extended-Range Tactical scopes have 60 MOA of total adjustment. (And, no I don't know why Leupold chose to describe a scope with a pretty limited amount of adjustment as "Extended Range".)

That means that those scopes from a flat base have 60/2 - 4 = 26 MOA available.

Those of us who shoot .308s at sea level know that won't get a .308 to 1000 yards.

Adding a 20 MOA base will get us 46 MOA total elevation, which will.

But, is it too much? No, because that leaves us 14 MOA of "down" elevation.

However a 30 MOA base would be very close to being marginal, because it would only leave us 4 MOA of "down".

And a 40 MOA would be too much - we wouldn't be able to get a short-range zero.

So, in evaluating scopes and bases, it might be a good idea to perform those calculations, after establishing how far you wish to shoot a given load, and what elevation it will take to get it there under the atmospheric conditions in which you anticipate shooting - the worst of which will be at sea level on a cold day.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Goin Hot,
I totally understand that there are specialty long range rigs built with a lot of MOA in their mounting rails. These are almost exclusively chambered for rounds like your Edge.

The OP was wanting to discuss actions for the .260Rem which is a totally different animal. Most people shooting the .260 Rem may occaisionally want to shoot at targets as close as 100yards. We have seen many rigs with 30-45moa specialty bases that can't be zeroed inside 2 or 300 yards because their high X scopes don't have enough internal adjustment to get there.

My NXS scopes have over 100 minutes of internal on the Z-axis. That combined with a 20 moa base will get the .260 out to any place it can reasonably be asked to play, including TVP. If I am not mistaken, Tom Sarver has a .260 Rem with this setup and he isn't hobbled in the least.

Most people shooting ultra long range are using scopes with higher than usual X range. Regardless of manufacturer, all of the scopes with high X offer considerably less vertical or Z-axis internal adjustment than their midrange X brothers. So the issue becomes setting up the rig only for long range (like your 45moa base) with the understanding that you can't even dial your zero down to normal close ranges.

What scope are you running? Can you zero close w/o hold unders?

I'm sorry I chased this topic into the corner. I'm sure the OP wasn't looking for that and I apologize.

</div></div>

I'm not chasing that rabbit down a hole, but for conversation sake why not strap one of these AI mounts on top of a fixed 20MOA rail?
ACC3436__53173_zoom.jpg


boom your 20 MOA rail + your 28MOA mount are now giving you 48 MOA total? that's damn near 5 feet elevation at 1K?

I'm not ever going to shoot out to a mile with this gun so the point is mute but I figured why the hell not throw it out there?
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

Hope you have enough cheek piece adjustment to get the proper stock weld.

A better solution I think would be something along the lines of the NightForce Direct mount.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hope you have enough cheek piece adjustment to get the proper stock weld.

A better solution I think would be something along the lines of the NightForce Direct mount. </div></div>

I'm not going to use this setup at all, If I had a need for something to shoot that far I would probably start somewhere else, like selling a few organs and calling you to get something built! The images of your shop on your site are amazing!
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body">specifically looking for a .260 build. I have an obermeyer barrel on order from bugholes and I'm planning on dropping this into a AICS 2.0 stock that my LTR is sitting in (keep your eyes on the classifieds in the next few weeks for that one to fund this project)

I figure I'm better off starting all over and selling my LTR, does anyone have input on differences between Stiller Tac-30 and a Surgeon 591 action?

From what I see they are both top notch, but the surgeon has an integral recoil lug and rail, and it costs more.

What am I missing? </div></div>

I would really recommend finding someone locally that has one of each and run the bolt on them. Stiller and surgeon both have a different feel to them, if I remember right the stiller actions have like .004 clearance on the bolt and the surgeon has like .008 clearance. I've had both and am a stiller fan myself but the bolts are very tight and can take a little getting used to because the bolts can bind if ran fast.

James
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 71firebird400</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chevy vs Ford vs Chrystler vs Pontiac vs. . .
smile.gif



</div></div>

Pontiac is clearly the best.
grin.gif
</div></div>

INDEED! I miss my car. . .
frown.gif


DSC_0046.jpg


DSC_0031-1.jpg


DSC_0007-5.jpg


DSC_0002-4.jpg


</div></div>

Nice looking Aussie bit of Machinery you have there!
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

I plan on receiving my Stiller Action in the next couple of months. I made the choice after emailing Jerry a couple of times always extremly knowledgable and extremly responsive. Got it off of the Hide Group Buy the end of last year.....can't wait...
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pinzmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have several Stillers and they work great. I would love to add a Surgeon to my safe but until they start making some lefty models, guess it just ain't gonna happen. Are you listening Surgeon?</div></div>

STRAIGHT up Surgeon actions are better than Stiller.......SURGEON ROCKS DUDE ! ! ! ! ! ! !
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

I have a 591 and it's a beast. When you work the action you know you made the right choice by the way it feels.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

STRAIGHT up Surgeon actions are better than Stiller.......SURGEON ROCKS DUDE ! ! ! ! ! ! ! </div></div>

how many surgeon and stiller based rifles to you have to base this on? are they identical other than manufacture of action? what is your basis on what is better? quality? bargain? accuracy? better is a pretty bold statement without something to qualify it.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
INDEED! I miss my car. . .
frown.gif


DSC_0046.jpg

</div></div>

Hey Chad, how's life treating ya. About your car? Miss it? Where did it go??

PS. My new ride. Same color. Maybe mine is its barely legal bad-ass big brother
wink.gif


viper4.jpg


viper5.jpg
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

That is one very nice looking ride! I don't own either action but if Stiller actions look as nice as your car, I'll be a life long customer.
 
Re: stiller vs. surgeon vs.???

I have shot a surgeon action it was very... very nice....I was told the difference between the stiller and surgeon was the extractor. Im not positive on this as I have never seen a stiller can anyone clarify this?
 
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