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Rifle Scopes STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

BasraBoy

BasraBoy

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 29, 2008
2,351
9
63
Dark Side of the Moon
Heads up for everyone:

Ex-SH member angelone is still out there playing his games

He is on the loose on Ebay and a number of firearms forums scamming sellers/buyres.

He appears on Ebay as:

Liane Angel
Mitteberg 1
A-4084 St Agatha
Austria

Email is: [email protected]

but clearly has a number of other identies:

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17569
http://forum.lwrci.com/newforum/viewtopic.php?t=5579&sid=2c893428bd51e30f8bf517c7de9760b4

I'm in for around $1,000 at the moment and the issue is under investigation. Hopefully it will turn out in my favour.

I'd hate for any other Hide members to get caught out...

If there are any ATF, FBI guys (or similar) reading this....maybe you'd like to get yourself or your International colleagues involved in improving this shitbag's attitude towards illegal arms trading?
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

So I finally heard back from the cretins at PayPal who, despite the evidence that I presented from other forums and Austrian post, decided that this "gentleman" is a bona-fide buyer and it was me who was at fault.

Goodbye to my ACOG (Serial No. 106371) and my GB£600 payment.

PayPal do not provide ANY evidence for basis of their decisions it seems.

Now to find how to prove this guy has ripped me off and then call PayPal to account.



 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Sorry to hear about your misfortune sir, hope you get it resolved better than this. Please keep us posted with your progress.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

That sucks- thanx for the heads up on someone that makes it hard to do business
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

First my advice (as i've been had by a guy from Austria - IOR scope different story...) would be go to the local police and start a case. It will take time but in my case it helped as the guy got a visit from Interpol and then we were able to broker a deal (got some stuff i knew he had in store and i dumped the police case) so atleast some of my money got returned. But the times we live in are such that honest folks are in big disadvantage and any compensation you will get is good as justice you surely won't (just saying so you can mentally prepare yourself that justice won't be served...).
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

this sucks. it really hurts honest folks trying to sell or buy a few things.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Sharac - thanks for the advice.

Rest assured I'm not dumb enough to rely only on the idiots at PayPal to put this right.

If this asshole runs into the consequences of his actions and his life gets f*cked up......well, he's got no-one to blame but himself.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

When I do high-$ transactions...

I generally ask the individual to send me their .mil/.gov/etc email (which can't be faked) and/or send me a copy of their DL with the address corresponding to the payment address (in this case, that wouldn't have helped you...but maybe an idea for future reference for Stateside transactions). I figure that if I have someone's DL #, than I can find them for the most part anywhere to resolve issues.

Hope you get a positive resolution!

 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Just a thought but has anyone used an escrow agent? They'll charge a fee of course, but that's surely preferable to losing everything plus the aggro that goes with it.

If it's at all possible to get Interpol involved, that would seem to me the best way to go after the fact. Is there any way to get the local Austrian police to look into the matter?
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

doubs43 - escrow accounts are good but sadly I didn't do it. This is my first bad experience in years of selling stuff and using PayPal.

If it helps highlight the problem to others and demonstrates PayPal's view that the seller has the burden of proof then that at least is something positive.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

No way i even considered driving myself to pay a visit however decided against it as many unwanted scenarios became possible...
I'd have to report him there in .at and it would be my word against his so i just decided to go with local police and let the Interpol (handles all international affairs inside EU) handle it (also they take them more seriously than some random dude bitching in some half broken german).

Our local investigator was really cool told me some other horror stories from people getting scammed and you can really minimize the risk with basic precautions such as mentioned above and possibly getting valid phone numbers, talking live etc...

PS: And if something looks to good to be true well it probably IS
smile.gif
.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

as far as im concerned paypal offers nothing in the way of buyer protection (or seller for that matter).
they decide matters based on silly policy.

i was scammed for a 1200$ item on an ebay purchase before. the scam the guy used was to send me an empty box with a UPS label on it that says the package weights 50lbs. and since he had a tracking number that showed a box was sent to me that weight roughly the same amount as the item i bought, the dispute was settled in the sellers favor.

so all a scam guy has to do is send someone an empty box and provide a tracking number with deliv confirmation and they are in the clear.

i ended up getting about 900 bucks of the money back through a lengthy credit card dispute process ( only put 900 on the credit card as the back up funding source, the rest was paypal balance )

it angers me to no end to hear of these stories, especially in the gun world
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

FYI, I use wells fargo. Went and asked them about using a certified bank check for 1100 to buy some something off the hide. Well they told me, that if I sent the guy the 1100 bank check, and didnt get the item, that they would help pursue it legally, and that buy cashing the bank check, they were actually signing into a contract with you that they were then OBLIGATED to send you said item. This is what the bank manager told me, take it for what its worth, but its how I buy things. No problems yet.

Quick question, did you send the acog out before you recieved the funds?
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

ubet - no I did not ship before payment. Funds were in my account BEFORE the goods were sent.

The guy only started a dispute AFTER the goods had been delivered.

PayPal immediately remove the funds and hold them once a dispute is started.

I suspect the mailing address will turn out to be a rented mailbox or similar......
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

From the law enforcement side, Paypal does keep excellent records. A simple court order for subscriber/billing info and originating IP addresses is fairly easy for law enforcement to get. However, if they are overseas you can forget it. No police department local or state is going to be able to do much of anything. For the most part, Interpol is a joke. I realize that a few on this site had success contacting them and getting some of their money back but I'm sure they are in the minority. Like someone said above, if it looks too good to be true it probably is. An individual overseas trying to perpetrate a scam will not talk to you over the phone. Watch their instant messages too. They're usually full of grammatical errors which is a dead giveaway. For the most part, this site is one of the more honest out there but there's always the someone out there ready to scam you out of your cash.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BULL GATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BUY FROM AN AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</div></div> He's in the UK, and without an export license from the US DoS, you can't ship the scope to him from the US.

In any case, he was selling the scope, not buying it.

Instead of criticizing someone with your first post on the day you register, try gaining a little knowledge of the situation first.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BULL GATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BUY FROM AN AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! </div></div>


seriously bro? your obviously clueless, please go away.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

This just gets better and better.

Now I'm getting the threatening emails from PayPal demanding immediate payment of the £25 negative balance on my account (caused 100% by their decision to reverse the payment from the scam artist) or face their debt recovery agents and negative credit ratings.

Firstly they have a set of procedures that actively encourages and rewards fraudulent activities....then they get heavy on the guy who suffers as a result!

Even after two long phone calls explaining the situation to the morons in their collections department, all they can do is hide behind their statement that it's their "terms and conditions" that all users agree to and they can't make exceptions!

What they have failed to explain is where this extra £25 charge comes from......

PRICELESS!
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I do high-$ transactions...

I generally ask the individual to send me their .mil/.gov/etc email (which can't be faked) and/or send me a copy of their DL with the address corresponding to the payment address (in this case, that wouldn't have helped you...but maybe an idea for future reference for Stateside transactions). I figure that if I have someone's DL #, than I can find them for the most part anywhere to resolve issues.

</div></div>
that is some good advice to follow.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Maybe in the US.

But in Europe fake or stolen IDs are regularly traded by criminals and can be used to set up bank accounts, get fraudulent loans, screw welfare systems etc.!

Most criminals know this and where to get it.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and all of you seem to love PAYPAL even when I told you all they are rip off artists.
Last Warning:
STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM PAYAPL, You will only get screwed if you deal with anything 'gun' related! </div></div>

^^^ THIS!!!!!! ^^^

I have sold a bunch of stuff on this forum (and others) lately and I am AMAZED at the number of people who want to know if I will accept PayPal payemnts and then who get pi$$ed and won't do business with me because I refuse to have a damn thing to do with PayPal. Well is it any F@#$%^& wonder I won't deal with them?!?!

Aside from their @#$%^& politics re: the use of their service for all things firearms/parts/components/etc., it is $#!T like what BasraBoy is going through that only reaffirms my hatred of PayPal!!!

I'm 110% with Switchblade on this one...STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM PAYPAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

I agree, Paypal offers absolutely no security, even though they base their advertising on it. Since Ebay owns PayPal and makes another 3% with it, they funnel buyers in with almost no way out now. It was different in the past, PayPal was private and you actually had payment options on Ebay.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

swithchblade, ORD....you're both bang on!

I'm actively encouraging everyone I know (and anyone else who'll listen) to stay the fu*k away from both Ebay and PayPal.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Sorry OP, I feel your pain. I also got screwed last year by an international transaction through PayPal. Although mine wasn't gun related (laptop), PayPal obviously didn't care or try to help me at all and just went ahead and refund the guy. So I was left with no laptop nor the money to show for it. Lesson learned the hard way stick better I guess.
To those who using PayPal, don't do business with those outside your country and don't use it for anything gun related, it's not worth it. And if you're the seller, get the money out asap before you sent your merchandise out.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Sorry to hear about that. I've stopped using Ebay or Paypal. Not worth the hassle.

Just think Meg Whitman who ran ebay and paypal is trying to get elected as governor today. Fat chance that's going to happen.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

roger that on pp sucking.Anyone i have dealt with here,sold or buying i always use a money order,for my benefit and theirs..
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

so he said you never sent? or sent empty box? how this exactly happen?
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Not to mention Paypal SCAMS with currency conversion and tricky/hidden options to disable their conversion system. While i had fortune with both ebay and paypal (same owner i.e. ebay owns paypal i think...) i'm more and more reluctant to use both sites ever again. I successfully sold several items to US however that was because buyers were decent people (lucky i guess) and we could do business on trust basis. So as you can see IF you get decent folks to do business with you don't need paypal, and if paypal does nothing to battle crime and fraud what good is it anyway??? To get free provision from ignorant masses?

The problem with scammers (at least here in EU) is that generally they have no possessions and even if police finds them penalties are small, no money no refund and most of the time police won't even bother to do their work as most of the scams are peanuts (in their feeble minds that is...)...

Telephone works wonders, do crosschecks, google around do everything you can to get as much info as possible and when dealing across the pond if something goes wrong you're in for a long long wait and odds are good you won't see your money or the merchandise. With you guys having good customer support, good dealers i really don't understand why someone from US would risk buying in EU (though i sold used Bender to US
smile.gif
)or Asia...
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Thanks for all your support guys - I appreciate it.

upjeeper - yes I can appeal but PP then try to impose time limits on the appeal process.

The only way they wil refund my money is if I get written proof of delivery (the original email confirmation from Austrian Post is deemed unacceptable).

PayPal said I had ten days from appealing their decision to provide the proof.

To get proof means lodging a request through Royal Mail in the UK to Ausria. As RM will only initiate the procedure 20 working days after the original date of posting this takes time.

Needless to say that is a LOT longer than the 10 days PayPal give....

And I'm sure that this bastard is clever enough to have found a way to take delivery without providing the signature required.

whoMe? - he said he never received the box and lodged a dispute four days after I posted it....coincidentally on the same day as Austrian Post said they delivered the package.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Has anybody ever taken Paypal to small claims court regarding something like this? Forget Paypal's terms and time limits, I would file a suit against Paypal in small claims court, take your evidence to the court, and let them decide if Paypal gets to keep your money or not. If they don't respond or show up, then you are awarded.

Not sure if they have small claims court in the UK, but it may be worth looking into as here in the US anybody can do it without having to incur expensive lawyer fees.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brett B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anybody ever taken Paypal to small claims court regarding something like this? Forget Paypal's terms and time limits, I would file a suit against Paypal in small claims court, take your evidence to the court, and let them decide if Paypal gets to keep your money or not. If they don't respond or show up, then you are awarded.

Not sure if they have small claims court in the UK, but it may be worth looking into as here in the US anybody can do it without having to incur expensive lawyer fees. </div></div>

Unfortunately, based on the ridiculous terms of use (whatever PP calls their "contract" with users), along with the arbitration provisions, forum selection clauses, disclaimers of liability, etc., etc., filing a suit will just end up wasting time and costing YOU money. Just because YOU don't get a lawyer doesn't mean that PayPal won't get one...in all likelihood, they most certainly WILL obtain counsel who will then move the court to dismiss your case based on the terms YOU agreed to when you signed up with PP and which you have agreed to the countless modifications of the agreement to continuing to be a user. You then lose your filing fee when your case is dismissed and if you get a particularly loathesome judge who gets swayed by the kind of sleazy lawyer PayPal would retain...you may get nailed paying PP's court costs and attorney's fees for them having to show up and "defend" such a "frivolous" suit that is in direct contravention of the contract/terms of use. Also, most small claims courts allow for a procedure for a defendant to "remove" a small claims court case to the next largest court where you will find real judges, scheduling orders, enforced rules of procedure, and generally lots of additional time and money spent to get you to a resolution (whether it ends up favorable to you or not). Also, just because they don't show up doesn't mean you automatically get an award. Even if a small claims court or magistrate awards you damages, there are always motions to vacate judgment, appeals, etc. PayPal has VERY DEEP POCKETS and they have a vested interest in seeing that suits like the kind you are suggesting get squashed like a cockroach under their boot so that the sheeple continue to use their services.

Unless you are dealing with a LOT of money or you have unlimited funds to "make a point" about PayPal's BS, its not worth it. If you don't use their crappy service...you don't have to worry about things like this happening!

Sorry...RANT off.
wink.gif
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Guy's
To avoid getting screwed use the method I use
When using Paypay, NEVER do an instant transfer from your bank account.
Always fund your Paypal purchase using your credit card.
Before you click on pay - check the box for other funding options and click on credit card.
I have had a few problems with sellers and called my credit card company and told them the problem and the credit card company (not you)disputes the payment with paypal. The credit card company IS on your side and during the dispute period you do not have to pay for that purchase. The credit card company always has resolved the problem FAST- under 30 days and has NEVER lost a dispute with Paypal. It only takes 1 short phone call!
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

I forgot to mention that I have never purchased items from over seas, just from the US & Canada

If it shoots, drives FAST or has hair around it-- I'm into it
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Small courts in EU are a joke. We have instrument to file a small claim at local court and it gets all the evidence (from you and the other party) however as there are xy languages in EU you need to pay for official translations (for example: my correspondence was in english and local bitch of a judge required from me an official translation into Slovene although every language in EU is official language per se and not to mention every kid around here can speak/understand English and/or German let alone university schooled #$/($#"#...) which can cost up to a 200€. So you can imagine that when dealing with small claim (up to 2k€) paying 10% for no guarantee is ludicrous. Also with crisis and people without funds it's virtually impossible to get money back if the person has no income as court proceedings can last for several years...

Long story short and minus the rants, bottom line is when shopping on the web you run a serious risk of being scammed, you can do much to minimize it but never totally discount the possibility of losing cash or getting defected merchandise. If you really have an itch to get something from EU weapons related i'd suggest you use www.egun.de and find a reputable dealer (good reviews). There are some to watch for (mainly items not as described or errors in delivery - friend got a wrong gun and had problems registering it locally as permit listed another serial). And use bank transfer as it's faster, direct and is completely trackable, dunno about the fees as inside EU it's free.


PS: Sorry for such long writings but being scammed once and despite getting most of the cash back it still pisses me off...
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heads up for everyone:

Ex-SH member angelone is still out there playing his games

He is on the loose on Ebay and a number of firearms forums scamming sellers/buyres.

He appears on Ebay as:

Liane Angel
Mitteberg 1
A-4084 St Agatha
Austria

Email is: [email protected]

but clearly has a number of other identies:

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17569
http://forum.lwrci.com/newforum/viewtopic.php?t=5579&sid=2c893428bd51e30f8bf517c7de9760b4

I'm in for around $1,000 at the moment and the issue is under investigation. Hopefully it will turn out in my favour.

I'd hate for any other Hide members to get caught out...

If there are any ATF, FBI guys (or similar) reading this....maybe you'd like to get yourself or your International colleagues involved in improving this shitbag's attitude towards illegal arms trading? </div></div>

Apparently this guy will be at SHOT Show 2011 at HK booth. Ask for "Mr Angel". Well I will be there, what all do you want me to ask him? And am I talking with my fists or feet?
laugh.gif
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If it shoots, drives FAST or has hair around it-- I'm into it </div></div>

You like getting into Men's Hairy buttholes?
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If it shoots, drives FAST or has hair around it-- I'm into it </div></div>

You like getting into Men's Hairy buttholes? </div></div>

Wow, you escalated that quickly...... I don't like where this is going.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If it shoots, drives FAST or has hair around it-- I'm into it </div></div>

You like getting into Men's Hairy buttholes? </div></div>

Wow, this thread took a wrong turn...............

Keith
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If it shoots, drives FAST or has hair around it-- I'm into it </div></div>

You like getting into Men's Hairy buttholes? </div></div>

NO SIR, PLEASE, I Never said that nor has it EVER crossed my mind!
FEMALE ONLY !
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

I'm sure he said it to be funny
Sometimes- more often than not, people say thing's while safe behind their keyboards that they would never say to someone- FTF.
To Staff Sargent DP425, Since I live in Sterling Heights MI not far from you, I would like you to know you have an open invite to shoot at my private range. We could talk about shooting FTF.
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Apparently this guy will be at SHOT Show 2011 at HK booth. Ask for "Mr Angel". Well I will be there, what all do you want me to ask him? And am I talking with my fists or feet?
laugh.gif
</div></div>

So he says on that other forum but....surprise. surprise..... H&K have never heard of him.

More interesting on those links are some of the other user names he uses on the forums.....
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure he said it to be funny
Sometimes- more often than not, people say thing's while safe behind their keyboards that they would never say to someone- FTF.
To Staff Sargent DP425, Since I live in Sterling Heights MI not far from you, I would like you to know you have an open invite to shoot at my private range. We could talk about shooting FTF. </div></div>

Oh I'd definitely say that face to face assuming the situation presented itself! But just like now, it would be with the intent of humor- albeit at someone else's expense. PM sent
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

Let me tell you something about Ebay and Paypal..... You can go to the city court, get sworn in by the judge, give your testimony to support issuance of a subpoena, get the subpoena signed by the judge, return to you office and fax it to the law enforcement support center for either one of those entities, and then.......

Like Andrew Jackson once told the Chief Justice of the the US Supreme Court, "You made your decision, NOW enforce it!"

all of a sudden emails are not returned and phones are not picked up. I have a subpoena into cox communications that was sent at the beginning of the year and I'm STILL waiting for a response........
 
Re: STOLEN ACOG , PAYPAL are A**HOLES!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: justme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure he said it to be funny
Sometimes- more often than not, people say thing's while safe behind their keyboards that they would never say to someone- FTF.
To Staff Sargent DP425, Since I live in Sterling Heights MI not far from you, I would like you to know you have an open invite to shoot at my private range. We could talk about shooting FTF. </div></div>

Oh I'd definitely say that face to face assuming the situation presented itself! But just like now, it would be with the intent of humor- albeit at someone else's expense. PM sent </div></div>
Great, I'm glad we got that cleared up. Invite still stands.
PM sent
 
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