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Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

oldgrayone

oldgrayone

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 28, 2008
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South East Georgia
There has been a bit of concern expressed here about the possibility of the west coast catching some of the bad stuff from across the pond.

First off I beleive it is against teh law in any state to run into a crowded public place and start yelling FIRE. It should also be against the law for a bunch of idiots on TV to start spewing a bunch of bull shit without having fact together.

I have worked in the nuke industry for over 20 years and in fact I am currently contracting at a site in Georgia that has 2 of the same plants are having problems in Japan. I was an operataor for 10 years, a certified Senior Reactor Operator instructor for 7 years and I now have my own consutling company working soley in the nuke field. So this info comes from experience not from the internet or news.

Those plants have far exceded their design. A 30 foot wall of water was not part of the design but on Saturday it was the plant still standing when no other structors for many miles were.

The design of the primary containment which is up to 10 feet thick will contain the core if it melts through the vessel. What is of concern is the exposed fuel pools which are located at the top elevation of each of the four buildings. These pools are where the used fuel is stored and it must remain covered with water and the water must remain cooled.

Number 4 reactor building spent fuel pool has boiled dry and this is causing dose rates on the site to go up. This amount of dose can and will be fatal for up to several hundred feet. But that is it, no way can the shine off of the pools reach our west coast.

What may reach here but most unlikley is air born contamination caught in a air stream that will have to travel across the ocean. I can't see it. When Russia blew the top back in the mid 80's we didn't see anything here worth speaking about. In 79 Three Mile Island lost its core and it didn't kill anyone.

So don't run out and buy any KI or army surplus gas masks we will be fine.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

So how did you make the jump from being a nuclear reactor operator/instructor to being a meteorologist?

BTW - The latest news from Japan is that the fuel pool has been exposed and chances are greatly increased for extremely high levels of radiation being exposed.

I live on the East coast, so I'm not buying up lead suits and Iodine tablets just yet, but I don't think the concerns of the folks on the West coast and Hawaii are completely without merit.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So don't run out and buy any KI or army surplus gas masks we will be fine. </div></div>

Bummer! We could've moved our army surplus gas masks collecting dust on the shelf. Next time, post this after we sell out : )

Mason @ CST
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

i was in Germany after Chernobyl.....when i went to take a leak in the middle of the night, i didn't have to turn on the night lite ......
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

Tucker,
There is a difference between radiation and contamination. I am no meteorologist but I am highly trained in site emergency plans which include gathering met data from on site stations and setting evacuation routes and areas as well as what type of material is in teh air and how far it will travel.

If a nuke bomb hits the place and blows the material a few miles up then there may reason to worry. The fule since drying out has not reached an elevation greater that the roof top.

Since you are on the east coast how much did you get from TMI?
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

oldgrayone,

Very interesting. How do they go about getting containment? Meaning; Is it just a matter of covering the fuel again and keeping the water cool? It sounds like the containment pool is still in tact because the water boiled-off and didn't leak dry. Once water is exposed to this fuel, is that water forever contaminated? If not could they just continue to pump fresh cool water from the ocean until power is restored from another source? Is the "Water" just water, or is that just a term used? Enlighten me please. I obviously know nothing about this sort of thing, so I apologize if these questions may seem pretty lame.

Thanks,

-Pat
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

Thanks for the information Oldgrayone.

From the day to day standpoint isn't burning coal more dangerous than nuculer power to the world?
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

OldGrayOne, if the new power line to the cooling pumps fails would simply burying the whole site in concrete like they did in Chernobyl be effective here??
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What may reach here but most unlikley is air born contamination caught in a air stream that will have to travel across the ocean. I can't see it. When Russia blew the top back in the mid 80's we didn't see anything here worth speaking about. In 79 Three Mile Island lost its core and it didn't kill anyone.

</div></div>

Homer.... are you sure you're qualified to speak on the matter?

The scope of the problem hasn't been defined in Japan as of yet - standby for details.

3 mile didn't breach secondary.

A simple google search would tell you that when Chernobyl cooked off (a mere 5% of the fuel and only 10 days) the drift was actually pretty farflung over parts of Russia and Europe. The health impacts have been difficult to establish as fact because WHO didn't track it very well prior to '86.

Also - coal dust from Chinese mining operations routinely floats 7,000 miles across the Pacific (that's @ 2,200 miles further west than Japan for those keeping score in IL BTW).

The issue isn't one or even two reactors. The issue is the full melt down and breach of containment of 3 -6 reactors and a response akin to the Obama's gulf oil spill fiasco with the corresponding and cumulative impacts to the food and water systems.


Good luck
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

He Shoot Me,
They need to refill the spent fuel pool if possible. The fuel sits about 23 feet from the bottom of the pool and 21 feet of water above the fuel will shield the area from radiation and also scrubb out the nasty such as Iodine before it reaches the surface. The fuel has lost its outter protective cladding most likely due to the extream heat it still produces and now the issue will be water flashing off as it hits the exposed fuel causing steam which will carry bad stuff out of the pool.

If they could get it flooded back up and either do a feed and bleed to keep it cool or get the pool cooling system back up and running they will be doing good.

The water can cleaned back up with a fliter/demin system to a very high purity.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Legba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the information Oldgrayone.

From the day to day standpoint isn't burning coal more dangerous than nuculer power to the world? </div></div>

You are correct, a worker in a coal fired plant receives on average more dose than a nuke plant worker. Pilots receive more yet.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

OLDGRAYONE, thanks for the post, I know nothing of this. But being on the left coast, does bother me a little bit.

On the other hand, we nuked Nevada for how many years? Things their are alright, it doesnt glow green when you drive through Tonopah or Ely, and they were only hundreds or less miles from Nellis, not thousands like we are from Japan.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OLDGRAYONE, thanks for the post, I know nothing of this. But being on the left coast, does bother me a little bit.

On the other hand, we nuked Nevada for how many years? Things their are alright, it doesnt glow green when you drive through Tonopah or Ely, and they were only hundreds or less miles from Nellis, not thousands like we are from Japan. </div></div>

Weren't most of the tests in Nevada underground? I know some early tests were aboveground as were the tests on the Bikini Atoll.
From the other thread it seems that the prevailing winds and jet stream are positioned to carry the fallout to the West coast. The early military aboveground tests took the wind into their calculations so the fallout wouldn't spread to a population center.

I'm not worried here in Texas, but I think there is cause for concern.

Jim
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

OGO,

"These pools are where the used fuel is stored and it must remain covered with water and the water must remain cooled."

I had not thought of this before but just how long do these spent fuel rods need to be cooled...100 yrs....500 ...until they can just be buried?
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> , no way can the shine off of the pools reach our west coast.
</div></div>

"Scientists Project Path of Radiation Plume
By WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: March 16, 2011


A United Nations forecast of the possible movement of the radioactive plume coming from crippled Japanese reactors shows it churning across the Pacific, and touching the Aleutian Islands on Thursday before hitting Southern California late Friday..."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/science/17plume.html?_r=1

I'm not a fan of the UN or NYT but...


 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What may reach here but most unlikley is air born contamination caught in a air stream that will have to travel across the ocean. I can't see it. When Russia blew the top back in the mid 80's we didn't see anything here worth speaking about. In 79 Three Mile Island lost its core and it didn't kill anyone.

</div></div>

Homer.... are you sure you're qualified to speak on the matter?

The scope of the problem hasn't been defined in Japan as of yet - standby for details.

3 mile didn't breach secondary.

A simple google search would tell you that when Chernobyl cooked off (a mere 5% of the fuel and only 10 days) the drift was actually pretty farflung over parts of Russia and Europe. The health impacts have been difficult to establish as fact because WHO didn't track it very well prior to '86.

Also - coal dust from Chinese mining operations routinely floats 7,000 miles across the Pacific (that's @ 2,200 miles further west than Japan for those keeping score in IL BTW).

The issue isn't one or even two reactors. The issue is the full melt down and breach of containment of 3 -6 reactors and a response akin to the Obama's gulf oil spill fiasco with the corresponding and cumulative impacts to the food and water systems.


Good luck </div></div>

Let Homer have another donut and then he will try to explain.

“3 mile didn't breach secondary” There are 2 levels of Containment with a BWR.. Primary and Secondary. Primary Containment emergency protection actions are taken to prevent the loss of Primary Containment. The function of Primary Containment is to prevent the release of fission. Secondary Containment is a backup to Primary Containment and its function is to minimize the release fission products.

It is part of emergency protective actions to vent Primary Containment and in doing so there was a release at TMI. Estimates are that the average dose to about 2 million people in the area was only about 1 millirem. To put this into context, exposure from a chest x ray is about 6 millirem


“A simple google search would tell you that when Chernobyl cooked off (a mere 5% of the fuel and only 10 days) the drift was actually pretty farflung over parts of Russia and Europe. The health impacts have been difficult to establish as fact because WHO didn't track it very well prior to '86.” You have misread the findings here. The Chernobyl reactor was a graphite moderated reactor. The prompt critical reactivity caused such a large energy spike that the 100 ton lid was lifted off of the reactor and the resulting flume of nasties were driven about 1 mile up into the air. Also this design did not have a primary containment which allowed an estimated 3 tons of highly activated moderator to be ejected on to the roof and parking lot. An estimated 5% of the remaining activated core was (approx. 9 tons) was released over the 10 day period. Most of the material was deposited close by due to the density of the material. Chernobyl initially established a 30 kilometer exclusion zone and later extended it to about a 45 kilometer radius. Something else of interest is the studies of people close by who did not get potassium iodine compared to people father away who did get it. There were more thyroid issues with the people who did receive the potassium iodine and did not need it that there were with the people who lived closer and did not receive any.



“coal dust from Chinese mining operations routinely floats 7,000 miles across” And I believe I stated in the original post that it is highly unlikely that the bad stuff will get here. Iodine and Cesium are more dense than air and will not carry as far unless there is a major wind. I guess if a hurricane were to develop and head to the west coast there could be some affects but with the dispersion the effect would be minimal. The US is monitoring the atmosphere 24/7 and they will know well ahead of time to take the correct action if needed. You can do a little google and see there are government run areas in the US that are in far worse shape that what can get across the ocean and you might be surprised to see that they may be in your back yard. Most of the lighter stuff that can travel long distances with a mild wind due to its density have a short half life and will clean up with a little soap and water.


“The issue is the full melt down and breach of containment of 3 -6 reactor” Not sure where you got this info except off of the news channels which is wrong. This is the info we have from sources much more reliable that the news station.

Unit 1 on Saturday preformed a primary containment vent to reduce pressure in the primary containment. In doing so hydrogen was vented to the reactor building and that hydrogen is what caused the explosion. Unit 1 Primary Containment is in tact and water is being supplied to the core

Unit 3 also went through the same scenario and it has Primary Containment in tack and cooling water is being supplied to the core

Unit 2 experienced an explosion and a possible breach of primary containment in the very lower elevation. Water is being supplied and level is rising indicating the breach is small and now sealed with water

Unit 4 reactor had all fuel removed and stored in the spent fuel pool at the upper elevation of the reactor building. This is the item of most concern. They are attempting to flood the pool back up but we have not received any additional details on their success.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> , no way can the shine off of the pools reach our west coast.
</div></div>

"Scientists Project Path of Radiation Plume
By WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: March 16, 2011


A United Nations forecast of the possible movement of the radioactive plume coming from crippled Japanese reactors shows it churning across the Pacific, and touching the Aleutian Islands on Thursday before hitting Southern
California late Friday..."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/science/17plume.html?_r=1



I'm not a fan of the UN or NYT but... </div></div>

The artical states "Health and nuclear experts emphasize that radiation in the plume <span style="font-weight: bold">will be diluted as it travels and, at worst, would have extremely minor health consequences in the United States, even if hints of it are ultimately detectable</span> The stuff will have avery short half life and will be scattered so much it will do nothing.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OGO,

"These pools are where the used fuel is stored and it must remain covered with water and the water must remain cooled."

I had not thought of this before but just how long do these spent fuel rods need to be cooled...100 yrs....500 ...until they can just be buried? </div></div>

The US sites have fule that was burned back in the 70's stored in dry heavy casks sitting out side. The natural circulation of air around the cask keeps them cool but the radiation is very high on them. The thick concret walls provide the required shielding froom the radiation.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> , no way can the shine off of the pools reach our west coast.
</div></div>

"Scientists Project Path of Radiation Plume
By WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: March 16, 2011


A United Nations forecast of the possible movement of the radioactive plume coming from crippled Japanese reactors shows it churning across the Pacific, and touching the Aleutian Islands on Thursday before hitting Southern
California late Friday..."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/science/17plume.html?_r=1



I'm not a fan of the UN or NYT but... </div></div>

The artical states "Health and nuclear experts emphasize that radiation in the plume <span style="font-weight: bold">will be diluted as it travels and, at worst, would have extremely minor health consequences in the United States, even if hints of it are ultimately detectable</span> The stuff will have avery short half life and will be scattered so much it will do nothing. </div></div>

I'm with you on that, but my point was that it contradicts your statement about radiation not reaching the U.S.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

fer craps sake folks, we receive more radiation from a bright sunny day than what the Jap radiation will hit us with !!

mellow the phuck out pholks !!
grin.gif
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

I guess it is in all what you want to beleive when reading the 'lamestream' media. Even the article cited says miniscule, not like the fearmongering map posted elsewhere.

I think it says more for the quality of the sensors than the threat presented.

Odd how- a couple of hundred scientists can say global warming is manmade and that is shrugged off as not conclusive, but let ONE geek say it is possible we will detect miniscule amounts of radiation from the crippled reactors and 'it is only prudent to be concerned'

If you fear the miniscule then flying across country on a routine basis must have you frantic.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

OGO - let me guess - your the media relations guy at your plant? You can spin bullsh*t with the best of them. When your obviously wrong about your underlying premise and you're called on it; you simply change tact and incorporate what you said with some tech spin to try and come back over the top. You've got the playbook down. If you aren't the media relations guy - apply for it.

None of what you said is fundamentally different that what I did.

Most importantly, and the reason I jumped on your comment to begin with is your premise - the event hasn't even unfolded and here you are making a statement as fact about an outcome.

The worst case of this event would be an unprecedented disaster in human nuclear endeavors. As I pointed out already in the companion thread to this one, the clean up side of a worst case event in Japan would be unique in its own right:

<span style="font-style: italic">Chernobyl is not representative of the catastrophe itself but does provide some probable insights on some of the challenges moving forward - again though, keep in mind two big distinctions:

1) The Ukraine wasn't dealing with a series of natural disasters concurrently with a nuke disaster

2) The government had no problem forcing people into that radiation. I have read IAEA docs that say 700,000 people were involved in the clean up and of that 350,000 in the first year alone (had to rotate them out quickly). Of those initial 350,000 many received radiation doses of 25,000 - 50,000 milirem in one year (5x - 10x over what OSHA says is max). Interestingly enough, only @ 230 developed acute radiation sickness with a morbidity rate of around 20% - or at least this is what has been reported. Pretty impressive really.


If this reaches a level approaching Chernobyl I highly doubt Japan can muster several hundred thousand volunteers to clean this up. That means imported labor, which means time.</span>

Back to your expertise for a minute:

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">“coal dust from Chinese mining operations routinely floats 7,000 miles across”</span> And I believe I stated in the original post that it is highly unlikely that the bad stuff will get here. Iodine and Cesium are more dense than air and will not carry as far unless there is a major wind.</span>

The gravitational pull or atomic weight of

Iodine - 126.90
Cesium - 132.90
Lead - 207.2

Yeah dude, their all more dense than "air" and as the cite pointed out - lead and other deposits have been showing up on the West coast as a result of Chinese mining operations taking place an additional 2,200 miles further away than Japan. In fact Drudge is reporting this morning that the first wave will hit the West coast on Friday - that is 3 days - 7 days ahead of schedule based on current government propaganda and 5 days ahead of the half life schedule of iodine 131.


While appreciate your time in the industry and knowledge of how things should function under normal circumstances - this ain't that. While folks that are running around saying the sky is falling should sit on their hands - so too should those that think they have it all figured out before it has even happened.


Good luck
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

Basically what the man is saying is the most one has to do if that evil Japanese cloud gets here is take a freakin shower and don't worry about. Oh, and use soap because this chicken little stuff stinks! ROFLMMFAO!
grin.gif


ps oldgreyone is G2G and knows his stuff, and he is also one pretty damn nice guy with more experience in other areas that he generously helped me out with back last winter
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pepperbelly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OLDGRAYONE, thanks for the post, I know nothing of this. But being on the left coast, does bother me a little bit.

On the other hand, we nuked Nevada for how many years? Things their are alright, it doesnt glow green when you drive through Tonopah or Ely, and they were only hundreds or less miles from Nellis, not thousands like we are from Japan. </div></div>

Weren't most of the tests in Nevada underground? I know some early tests were aboveground as were the tests on the Bikini Atoll.
From the other thread it seems that the prevailing winds and jet stream are positioned to carry the fallout to the West coast. The early military aboveground tests took the wind into their calculations so the fallout wouldn't spread to a population center.

I'm not worried here in Texas, but I think there is cause for concern.

Jim </div></div>

NOPE! Dad knew people outside of Tonopah. Govt came to their house, asked them to wear little sensors under the lapels of their shirt, they did. When govt wouldnt tell them of the findings, they told the govt to get fucked. They would tell stories of B-52s 3 of them, flying in formation, two would break one way, the other keep going. 5-10mins later, an explosion, then a huge mushroom cloud. 40-45 mins later, the sky would turn dark with sagebrush and sand coming out of the sky, so bad that they would have to go inside. Not quit sure of how many years this went on, but it was quit awhile.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

Can any of you out there get us some Potasioum Iodide pills?
Need some of you guys to raid the Health Food stores
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

I tried to shine some light to settle the panic on this and some want to stand in the shadows. DO NOT GO ON YOUR OWN AND START TAKING POTASSIUM IODINE. I understand some members have anger and distrust but the US Navy has nuke ships in the area and they are monitoring conditions. If things are looking bad for the west coast they will give you a heads up.

Another item that may warrant a look into is the correct use of radiation and contamination and energy levels of Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Neutron and X-Ray. This will help with the understanding of the decay rate and why some contamination can be washed off.

We don't use the term base when we mean ogive when talking reloading and in the nuke industry we do not use the term radiation when we mean contamination. With that in mind all 4 cores from the Jap reactors can be stacked outside on the coast and we will not be able to measure the radiation on the west coast. As in the original post the radiation will not reach the west coast and in the unlikley any of the contamination does it can be delt with with little effort.



 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

Oldgrayone,

All I can say is that I doff my plume to yours, and others as well, <span style="text-decoration: underline">Intelligence</span> here on the 'Hide.

Your actual insight and experience is appreciated by myself, and many others. No more supposition, conjecture, or innuendo is needed. Thanks for sharing.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off I beleive it is against teh law in any state to run into a crowded public place and start yelling FIRE. It should also be against the law for a bunch of idiots on TV to start spewing a bunch of bull shit without having fact together. </div></div>

If they did that we would have no TV news. This is a CONSTANT thing with them. Literally constant. The Toyota UA deal was a perfect example. OMG we're all going to die! A few months later "Yeah, actually, turns out they are safe unless you pile on 3 or 4 extra floormats and the pedal hangs up on them"

ABC has been caught rigging footage for news reports calling out Audi, GM and Toyota. I'm sure they do it to everyone else too.

Fear gets people interested and keeps them coming back for more, so they tell scary stories when they OUGHT to be focusing on what people can do to help. But the concept of public service is loooong gone frm the MSM.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

I think that in the end, these events are going to stimulate the advent of more widespread nuclear power.

Our energy solutions have always cost lives. It's bad, but it's also nonproductive to dwell on the negative aspects. Personally, I have already received several hundred times the amount of radiation that the average individual gets and I'm doing relatively fine.

Radiation dosage limits have always been set at a conservative level. As long as radiation exposure is an extremely rare thing (and it is...), you can set them as low as you like, and it doesn't make a lot of difference. The levels are established based on actuarial calculations with an upper limit that permits zero tolerance for any consequences that are distinguishable from normal background exposure.

Compared to other types of exposures, they may be overly conservative. I don't know for sure about that, but I do know from personal experience that nearly twenty years after, my own exposures of at least one, maybe three orders of magnitude beyond of the normally permissible level have not had significant consequences on my life process.

The horrors of Chernobyl had their origins in poor design, possibly poor operation, and definitely occurred in the midst of a society that was pauperized, unprepared, and apathetic.

Such is not the case practically anywhere else in the civilized world. The Western nations have the wherewithal and the infrastructure needed to cope. While we may point fingers and lament about the Japanese situation, the fact remains that what we are witnessing is a clearly worst case scenario, under the worst possible conditions, with multiple sites involved.

Under the circumstances, it would appear that actually very few casualties are involved, and most of the uproar comes from folks whose vested interests lie in creating uproar.

I suspect that when the equipment gets packed up and the folks are finishing their treatment, there could well be a reassessment of the 'dangers of nuclear' power, and that cooler, more open minds will prevail. Chicken Little may even get to enjoy a well deserved retirement.

I would suggest that rhetoric and recrimination on a website, like ours, contributes absolutely nothing toward a solution of any part of these problems. I would suggest we all take a step back, wipe our brows, and let the experts do their jobs. Tugging their elbows and screaming epithets in their ears does not help. Whether one supports or opposes domestic nuclear power isn't going to make much difference to the folks on the ground in Japan; so let's concentrate on helping those folks more directly, and leave the rhetoric for a time when it's more appropriate to engage in academic debate.

Greg
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that in the end, these events are going to stimulate the advent of more widespread nuclear power.

Our energy solutions have always cost lives. It's bad, but it's also nonproductive to dwell on the negative aspects. Personally, I have already received several hundred times the amount of radiation that the average individual gets and I'm doing relatively fine.

Radiation dosage limits have always been set at a conservative level. As long as radiation exposure is an extremely rare thing (and it is...), you can set them as low as you like, and it doesn't make a lot of difference. The levels are established based on actuarial calculations with an upper limit that permits zero tolerance for any consequences that are distinguishable from normal background exposure.

Compared to other types of exposures, they may be overly conservative. I don't know for sure about that, but I do know from personal experience that nearly twenty years after, my own exposures of at least one, maybe three orders of magnitude beyond of the normally permissible level have not had significant consequences on my life process.

The horrors of Chernobyl had their origins in poor design, possibly poor operation, and definitely occurred in the midst of a society that was pauperized, unprepared, and apathetic.

Such is not the case practically anywhere else in the civilized world. The Western nations have the wherewithal and the infrastructure needed to cope. While we may point fingers and lament about the Japanese situation, the fact remains that what we are witnessing is a clearly worst case scenario, under the worst possible conditions, with multiple sites involved.

Under the circumstances, it would appear that actually very few casualties are involved, and most of the uproar comes from folks whose vested interests lie in creating uproar.

I suspect that when the equipment gets packed up and the folks are finishing their treatment, there could well be a reassessment of the 'dangers of nuclear' power, and that cooler, more open minds will prevail. Chicken Little may even get to enjoy a well deserved retirement.

I would suggest that rhetoric and recrimination on a website, like ours, contributes absolutely nothing toward a solution of any part of these problems. I would suggest we all take a step back, wipe our brows, and let the experts do their jobs. Tugging their elbows and screaming epithets in their ears does not help. Whether one supports or opposes domestic nuclear power isn't going to make much difference to the folks on the ground in Japan; so let's concentrate on helping those folks more directly, and leave the rhetoric for a time when it's more appropriate to engage in academic debate.

Greg </div></div>

Nicely put Greg. Factually, so far as I know, the only loss of life is from the Tsunami.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that in the end, these events are going to stimulate the advent of more widespread nuclear power.

Our energy solutions have always cost lives. It's bad, but it's also nonproductive to dwell on the negative aspects. Personally, I have already received several hundred times the amount of radiation that the average individual gets and I'm doing relatively fine.

Radiation dosage limits have always been set at a conservative level. As long as radiation exposure is an extremely rare thing (and it is...), you can set them as low as you like, and it doesn't make a lot of difference. The levels are established based on actuarial calculations with an upper limit that permits zero tolerance for any consequences that are distinguishable from normal background exposure.

Compared to other types of exposures, they may be overly conservative. I don't know for sure about that, but I do know from personal experience that nearly twenty years after, my own exposures of at least one, maybe three orders of magnitude beyond of the normally permissible level have not had significant consequences on my life process.

The horrors of Chernobyl had their origins in poor design, possibly poor operation, and definitely occurred in the midst of a society that was pauperized, unprepared, and apathetic.

Such is not the case practically anywhere else in the civilized world. The Western nations have the wherewithal and the infrastructure needed to cope. While we may point fingers and lament about the Japanese situation, the fact remains that what we are witnessing is a clearly worst case scenario, under the worst possible conditions, with multiple sites involved.

Under the circumstances, it would appear that actually very few casualties are involved, and most of the uproar comes from folks whose vested interests lie in creating uproar.

I suspect that when the equipment gets packed up and the folks are finishing their treatment, there could well be a reassessment of the 'dangers of nuclear' power, and that cooler, more open minds will prevail. Chicken Little may even get to enjoy a well deserved retirement.

I would suggest that rhetoric and recrimination on a website, like ours, contributes absolutely nothing toward a solution of any part of these problems. I would suggest we all take a step back, wipe our brows, and let the experts do their jobs. Tugging their elbows and screaming epithets in their ears does not help. Whether one supports or opposes domestic nuclear power isn't going to make much difference to the folks on the ground in Japan; so let's concentrate on helping those folks more directly, and leave the rhetoric for a time when it's more appropriate to engage in academic debate.

Greg </div></div>

I'm inclined to agree. The fact that the reactors are still standing, and containing most of the radiation following a 9.0 quake and tsumani speak volumes about the redundant safety measures of a modern day reactor.

On another note, it is complete bullshit that the media has been allowed to create such hysteria over something that in reality will have no noticeable affect on us, especially when the Japanese people really need help and coverage of more serious and looming issues.
People seem to forget that we detonated two <span style="font-style: italic">nuclear fucking bombs</span> over Japan, at an altitude of several thousand feet, and everyone was fine over here. I'm no expert, but it seems that the radiation from the bombs would be several orders of magnitude greater than what the reactors in Japan will ever leak, and at altitude. To think that the reactors would have an impact even on Hawaii seems asinine to an extreme.

Pisses me off....

 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

any one know what color this cloud of radiation will be ? can any one give more info on what to look for ? will it be similar to a swarm of bees zipping along ? will there be any sound to to it ?

gosh folks i am really beginning to get worried.., i guess my biggest and most important Q. is how will it effect the flight and path of our bullets ?? will they melt ? go up rather than down ? maybe i should ask what effect will there be on our AR-15's ?? will the springs turn soft ? will the chambers shrink ?

will this cloud also sterilize my dog ? what about my garden veggies ??

this is getting extremely scary
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Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

So now we've got Barky Obama telling us that there is absolutely no need to worry about any radiation fallout, while he hops on a plane with his whole family and flies down to the southern hemisphere.

That tells me one thing --- we're screwed.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

The one thing that should tell you is that he's not very smart - he's going to get more radiation on that flight from being at altitude than he would if he stayed in Washington.

And, please, no one make a comment about the radiation shielding in Air Force One. I know that.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

Roller-
wrong conspirasy theory. Presidents are just front men for the REAL powers.

Now if Soros....

Or if Cheney is hiding again, he cant go near 7-11s or reactors. Even out of office puppet masters get professional courtesy.
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Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The one thing that should tell you is that he's not very smart - he's going to get more radiation on that flight from being at altitude than he would if he stayed in Washington.
</div></div>

I hear they are making the entire flight at 100' above sea level, they'll burn a little more fuel but avoid the radiation
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Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

Quick question... Now that they've been pumping sea water in for cooling, won't that render the reactor not recoverable? Something to do with the salinity of the water...
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

Oldgreyone,
Thank you for taking the time here to accurately addressing people's concern.
Another good unbias place for information is the Nuclear Energy Insitute website.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mn_Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quick question... Now that they've been pumping sea water in for cooling, won't that render the reactor not recoverable? Something to do with the salinity of the water... </div></div>

It was unrecoverable as soon as the tops of the fuel rods started melting.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TX_M10BA_Dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mn_Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quick question... Now that they've been pumping sea water in for cooling, won't that render the reactor not recoverable? Something to do with the salinity of the water... </div></div>

It was unrecoverable as soon as the tops of the fuel rods started melting. </div></div>

The whole site is a loss. Units 1 through 4 have and will have dose rates in the buildings too high to access and they will be that way for many years. The site I would suspect out to a minimun 20 mile radius will be a restricted area due to ground contamination. There is really no good out come for Japan on this due to the problems that will be passed on to the next generation at a biological level.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

I agree no need for panic in the U.S. but I would not want to be living on that island in Japan.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

Good info, with one exception: it is perfectly legal to run into a theater and yell "fire" if there is an actual fire in the theater.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

Thanks OGO, I like to hear from experienced people.

To all the conspiracy theory guys spewing at him, go back to carving anarchy signs in your desk, when they day comes that you get to google search your way into being a nuke operator I might not scoff at your injectures and word use nitpicking. But for now stick to what you know. I don't know exactly what that is, but it sure as hell isn't nuke plant operation.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldgrayone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The whole site is a loss. Units 1 through 4 have and will have dose rates in the buildings too high to access and they will be that way for many years. The site I would suspect out to a minimun 20 mile radius will be a restricted area due to ground contamination. There is really no good out come for Japan on this due to the problems that will be passed on to the next generation at a biological level. </div></div>

Read that again, and chew on it for just a bit....Brutal

-Pat

OGO: Thank you for taking the time to shed some light on this. Grateful.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

I was speaking to one of my professors that is from Russia that did quite a bit of research on Chernobyl. According to her, the type of reactor that Japan is using at the site is a MOX reactor, basically consists of decommissioned nuclear weapons, and it is far more toxic that standard reactor components. Also, if the material were to reach the jet stream, which is possible, it would reach the US in a very short amount of time. This is all according to my Russian research professor.
 
Re: Stop the Japan/Reactor scare

OGO, would it be possible to get an update from a realistic POV. The sky is falling according to the news media.
 
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