- Thread starter Zeus0390
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I have killled a pile of does with the 220 grain outlaw state exot. Many dropped in their tracks.
300 whisper shooting 1000 fps
300 whisper shooting 1000 fps
I'd suggest the 194gr Lehigh, that bullet has proven to work well enough on both deer stateside and even better on humans in the Mid East.
there are also several maker bullets like the 200gr Rex that will reliably expand at subsonic velocities.
The trick to finding expanding subs is to find bullets that are advertised and designed to work at 300 Blk velocities, 200gr + bullets made for the 308 will have no expansion at subsonic velocities.
If this is for a serious deer or other medium game hunting load I would avoid subsonics all together. The best performing expanding subs give about identical performance to broadhead arrows. I'd suggest a supersonic bullet like the 110gr TSX or 125gr SST for longer range and rifle like performance on game
there are also several maker bullets like the 200gr Rex that will reliably expand at subsonic velocities.
The trick to finding expanding subs is to find bullets that are advertised and designed to work at 300 Blk velocities, 200gr + bullets made for the 308 will have no expansion at subsonic velocities.
If this is for a serious deer or other medium game hunting load I would avoid subsonics all together. The best performing expanding subs give about identical performance to broadhead arrows. I'd suggest a supersonic bullet like the 110gr TSX or 125gr SST for longer range and rifle like performance on game
The 125 sst are great and the barnes 150 tsx and ttsx. At super are pretty good as well
None of the expanding subsonic bullets have been reliable from what I have seen. I am also of the opinion that subsonic ammo in 300 Blackout is a novelty, as literally any application of it would be improved by using 110-120 gr supersonic projectiles. I get that some people have killed people and critters with subs, but it's genuinely not an optimal thing. All you're doing is using a rifle-size firearm to perform pistol performance.
This link is worth reading on testing done with a few different bullets including Lehigh. I have come to the same conclusion and have found the same results. I may try a fragmenting offering from Lehigh as a last attempt but head shots is the only method I would recommend
If looking for subs that are actually going to do what they are supposed to Lehigh and a couple others are the way to go. Ive made light subs and heavy subs just playing around 110 v max all the way up to 208 220 with all different manufacturers the 150 gr. Barns tsx actually opened up pretty good but nothing to write home about. For a BO sub to be worth a shit it needs to frangible projectiles like some controlled chaos or something along those lines not just an open tip of rapid expansion
i dont load 300, but i do have a buddy i put some 308 subs together for. with the reduced velocity, most bullets designed wont expand well without the velocity….which is why i used 170 gr 30/30 bullets. they are designed for expansion at lower velocities. what they actually do on game, i couldnt tell you.
were it me, and subsonic was the interest, i’d go with either sub 44 or 45 caliber pistol cartridges and go with the heaviest bullets i could….no need for expansion due to the original bullet diameter. but.. that would exclude the ar platform from consideration. maybe the 458 socom could be used to fill that nitch..….but that is outside my wheelhouse.
were it me, and subsonic was the interest, i’d go with either sub 44 or 45 caliber pistol cartridges and go with the heaviest bullets i could….no need for expansion due to the original bullet diameter. but.. that would exclude the ar platform from consideration. maybe the 458 socom could be used to fill that nitch..….but that is outside my wheelhouse.
I found a few thousand new 300 BO cases in my shop today. I probably shoot 20 rounds of it a year, so it should keep me a while. No idea what I am going to do with them, though. I have tons of the Barnes loaded up, and for subs I usually just load up heavy 30 cal bullets I've decided not to use elsewhere.
The Lehigh bullets expand as they are supposed to. The problem is that unless you shoot them directly through the heart the deer run to far off to find. Blood trails non existent or very light and sparse to track them. This lead me to head shots only. If you read the report I posted above It shows the issue with low velocity 30 cal bullet impacts. Going to try a bullet with petals that break off to see if it will produce a better wound channel but have a feeling results will be better but not perfect. Head shots are the way to go for me and expected results. Would like a 458socom I think it would be a game changer with the 500g plus bullets
I don’t have experience with the 200 Speer Hot-Cors, but I don’t think they are going to expand at subsonic velocities. They are marketed for big game. I shoot the 150 Hot-Cors in my 308 shorty at 2700ish and they perform really well at that speed. If your looking for a good expanding sub bullet check out the Maker 200 and 220 REX bullets. I’ve had good results with them.
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No 458 socom bolt guns from major manufacturers that I know of though.
Was that pulled from a deer or what did you shoot it into
I agree unless you can get a good frangible rnd. I just asome have a big thumper with some knock down power. I just play around with them cause their fun to shoot and plink with. 450 bushmaster subsonic on an AR platform is pretty cool at short distance but they fall on there face pretty quick but as you were saying an AR 45acp would be pretty cool and already subsonic and probably get a little better ballistics with the little bit longer barrel.
Every deer I have shot with the outlaw state bullets have been recovered. The ones that ran left good blood trails. The exit hole is 3/4-1 inch wide.
Before I found the outlaw state bullets I was using sierra 220 grain match kings. We probably only recovered 70% of the deer shot with that load.
I don’t shoot past 200 yards. Most of the shots are 100-150.
I have friends who have killed a lot of pigs with subsonic outlaw state bullets.
Our does are 95-120lbs.
Just my reference point.
Before I found the outlaw state bullets I was using sierra 220 grain match kings. We probably only recovered 70% of the deer shot with that load.
I don’t shoot past 200 yards. Most of the shots are 100-150.
I have friends who have killed a lot of pigs with subsonic outlaw state bullets.
Our does are 95-120lbs.
Just my reference point.
The bullet penetrated both sides of the one deer I shot with those subs, so I never got a look at it. Deer made it about 20 yards before piling up. The two in the pics were recovered from a row of four or five milk jugs full of water backed by a chunk of firewood.
Took me bit to find these
190 gr Sub-X at 850 fps in gel
Recovered bullet
Lehigh 194 CF at 840 fps
190 gr Sub-X at 850 fps in gel
Recovered bullet
Lehigh 194 CF at 840 fps
Did the bullets tumble or am I missing something? Looks like they entered right to left.
Yes. They both did. The Lehigh came apart as designed before the largest piece tumbled. I think the blocks are 16” long for reference.
The sub-x seem to be not such a great product. It kind of sucks that the good 300 blk bullets are all solids and purpose built, so expensive.
Do you have a link for these "outlaw state bullets". Would live to do done more research on them.
Home - Outlaw State Bullets LLC
Outlaw State Bullets LLC .308, .310, .458 subsonic hunting bullets. .308 225 grain bullets, .310 225 grain bullets, .458 530 grain bullet, .338 spectre. Specialty projectiles. Ammunition.
outlawstatebullets.com
The subsonic projectiles are all at the best a slow expanding bullet that has to entirely rely upon permanent cavity and penetration depth for wounding. Same as most any handgun. Meanwhile lower weight 110-120 gr bullets moving fast enough will exceed some tissue elasticity with their hydrostatic shock during expansion/fragmentation, and yield not only a permanent crush cavity but the disruption of nearby tissue through liquification. Albeit it doesn't do a lot, and with the already slow speed of 300 Blackout the engagement range must be short since most light .30" bullets have a low BC.
High velocity (2200+ FPS) bullets will turn organs like the liver and heart into a jelly during field dressing. This is one of the main differences in a hunting cartridge versus a target cartridge at distance. Both hit, but only one is going to act like a rifle round.
Quality 300 Blackout projectiles are indeed quite limited, but you don't need to buy the 110 or 120 TAC-TX exclusively. The Nosler Varmageddon and Hornady VMAX 110 gr projectiles will achieve the same velocity as the 110 TAC-TX, and offer excellent expansion and acceptable penetration. Plus they're usually between 20 to 30 cents apiece in today's market. TAC-TX are at least 70 cents typically.
300 Blackout is a very niche cartridge that the gun media has masqueraded as some do-it-all wonder pony. It's slow, the bullet selection is small, and it takes up the space of a 5.56 gun. Marketing has been focused on subsonic range toy bull shit guns as big as the same made more effective with 5.56. It makes the best sense in something along the size of an MP5, such as the Sig Rattler. Short range lethality in a compact package with ergonomic controls. Frankly any emphasis on boutique subsonic bullets is a lost cause in my book.
Unless you want to hunt with subsonic bullets.
Lots of people want sub sonic and long range. That’s a fools errand. Keep subs to pistol, or bow, range and game recoveries will increase. Also, go into it with the expectation of needing to trail the animal.
Never heard a bow hunter complain that an animal needed to be tracked before recovery.
Never heard a bow hunter complain that an animal needed to be tracked before recovery.
I only shoot does or culls and never shoot past 200. That is all my scope will dial.
I built my Remington 700 is 300 whisper just to shoot does.
I built my Remington 700 is 300 whisper just to shoot does.
The few times I’ve hunted with subs, I’ve set up just like I was bow hunting. It’s just a cheap Ruger American Ranch but shoots well. Shot the doe last year at around 20 yards. Heart shot. There was a smaller doe right beside her that just stood there after the shot. So quite with 200 grain Makers, Titegroup, and the Ultra 7 you can hear the bullet strike flesh.
not in a q barrel. those bullets cant handle the 1:5 twist. have had them come apart and fly crazy about 1 in every 5
.308 190gr SUBSONIC Raptor
50ct This bullet is designed to function at subsonic speeds and put game on the ground quickly and quietly. A minimum impact velocity of 900fps is required for the hollow point to function as intended. This makes it an excellent choice for .300 Blackout and .300 Whisper rifles. Instead of...
They also have them in 215 & 230 gr. Spendy though.
Out of stock right now but these open down to 600fps.
Cavity Back MKZ 195 grain Subsonic 7.62/.308
COPPER BULLETS COPPER PROJECTILES NONLEAD ALL COPPER SOLID COPPER HUNTING TARGET
www.cavitybackbullets.com
I had a similar experience with 110 TMK’s. Blew up in a 1:5 twist barrel (and shotgunned my old chrono).
This was a very helpful thread and I began researching the copper expanding like Outlaw and Cavity Backed Bullets. My goto has always been the 208 AMAX in a folding 10" suppressed carbine. While researching these EXOT bullets I came across this report from USDA about wildlife management using subsonic, which I found informative and am sharing. I don't hunt deer with 300blk, it's a close range hog gun but the paper speaks to the OP question.
I've used the 200gr Maker Rex to take deer out to 73 yds., my longest shot, and haven't lost one yet. I scoff at those saying we're unethical and we have to pick your shots more carefully. Does that mean that they can disregard good shot placement just because they are supersonic. If so they are even more unethical. I believe many opinions were formed pre-Lehigh and pre- Maker. I can only speak to my experience with Maker and so far they're batting a thousand with 9 deer.
Lehigh 200gr expanding subs
MV and range? Or, estimated impact velocity? And, what was the target?
Those average 1050fps. I tested them at 75 yards. The rifle was a Rem 700 Tac with 16" barrel. They expanded all the way down to 850fps (130 yards) but only exoanded to about 1/2 that. The petals are ridiculously sharp. The testing medium I used was a 1/4" thick piece of leather over a 1# bologna pack backed by 1/2" particle board and then 6 water jugs. They penetrated to the 5th jug. I am gonna use them this bear rifle season
What’s the advantage of hunting with subsonic ammo? It’s never made sense to me when supersonic is an option. It seems like you’re handicapping yourself for no reason. Just looking for some rationale that I may be missing.
Lehigh made a .338 expanding slug for subsonics. I've been trying to locate some. Might you have a source?
Thank you,
MrSmith
If you can get into bow range, you can get into subsonic range... And, no hearing protection. No ringing ears. low risk of hearing loss...
The appeal for me is: A) I only have 60% of my hearing as it is. B) I hunt a 24 acre wood surrounded by residential and I don't want to piss off or scare the neighbors. We don't need more anti hunting/firearms people in the world
