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Substitute for Varget

G

gnfiter3

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 28, 2007
301
6
Florida
I've check previous post, but I'm cutting to the chase, based on the experience of the shooters on this forum. It seems Varget works with light and heavy .223. I'm shooting Berger 52 and Honady 69 grainers. 60% of my .223 is 52 grainers, as 100 yrd range is all I have to work with.

Which is best for loading progressively and for accuracy?

RL 15 (Will this meter as well as Varget?)
BLC-(2)
AA 2520
AA 2460 (Got the impression this one was for heavier bullets.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

In my .223 I tried Varget, H335, Imr 4895 and Benchmark behind a 55 grn ball. The Benchmark has given the best groups year around with Imr 4895 a close second.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Just loaded the last Varget. On my way to see if local has either of these.

Observations on your recommendations:

Will, I hear TAC is heat sensitive. You're in Tx and the heat must get up there. It's cold here when it hits 45, but the summer is hot and humid. Like 90's in the shade.

Jedi, Accurate Web shows 2230 for 1:12 Twist barrels, mine is 1:8. AA2460, but for 69-80 grainers with barrels between 1:7 and 1-9.

Now I wonder why I'm struggling when it comes to powder selection? On the otherhand, I may be over doing it.

Thank you both for your recommendations.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Run TAC in mine with 55's through 77's . Load on a Dillon 650 and stick powder doesn't meter for squat in the Dillon powder measure .
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

RL-15 meters BETTER than Varget. Forget the ball powders. Go with H4895 or RL-15 if Varget is scarce. RL-15 seems to be the most available powder in this class right now.

2230 is a copy of 748. Both work well with lighter bullets and are heat sensitive. Both go bang with heavier bullets but you'll give up 100 FPS over the "right" powders for the heavies - Varget, RL-15, H4895, VV N140.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">RL-15 meters BETTER than Varget. Forget the ball powders. Go with H4895 or RL-15 if Varget is scarce. RL-15 seems to be the most available powder in this class right now. </div></div>

Just be careful not to use your Varget load data to load up H4895
laugh.gif
They're close, but not quite
smile.gif
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

TAC isnt too bad... unless you let it cook in the chamber, etc.

You may need to revisit the load for warmer weather, but I'd do that just for giggles anyway.

I've shot it in TX 100+ summers without issue, of course I didn't develop the load in winter time either.

I'd find a nice moderate load that shoots well and you should be OK.

If 100yds is all you have there is no sense in pushing the velocity envelope when there are accuracy nodes on the lower end.

-Wil
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Torf I almost typed that H4895 takes .5 - .7 gr less than the other sticks but assumed he would consult the loading data not just throw the same weight or volume he was of his Var-GAY....
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

How about this. I got so caught up in finding all the information regarding the recommended powders; the store closed before I got there. What am I going to do with only 400 rounds of 223 loaded?

NineHotel, you assumed right. I check the charge wts before each start-up, and after every 20 rounds.

Thanks for all your inputs. I figure the store will have at least one of the recommended powders.
1. RL-15
2. H4895
3. Benchmark
4. VV140

If Varget doesn't hit the market soon, this thread will help a few more shooters. Though it seems that you guys had a preference over Varget already.

It is interesting to note that the HazMat charge for a can of powder, is more than the cost of the powder.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Don't know if it will work on .223 but I changed out on my .308 with Win. 748. But R-15 is a good choice.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

748 is a good one for 223, but like Varget, it wasn't in the shop. Forget the ball powders was an interesting comment. They meter well in progressive press; so what is the issue; load density??

Yes, and I put together 10 rounds of 4064 @ 25 grains, just for giggles. Weighing every round was just the PIA I expected.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gnfiter3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">................ Forget the ball powders was an interesting comment. They meter well in progressive press; so what is the issue; load density??.................. </div></div>

Temp sensitivity, compared with other choices.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Torf I almost typed that H4895 takes .5 - .7 gr less than the other sticks but assumed he would consult the loading data not just throw the same weight or volume he was of his Var-GAY.... </div></div>

I only bothered to mention it because I've got a big ole tub of H4895 sitting here to shoot through and I'm always looking at other people's loads with Varget thinking about how hot they sound at 47 grains
laugh.gif


Better safe than sorry anyways
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Rafael: Temperature sensitivity, thank you. Also, I sure miss Tidewater from my Ft. Eustis Days. Just could not get use to how cold the water was at Va. Beach, even in the summer.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Reloader-15 is a great powder for the .223, the powder grains are short and easy to measure.
BL(C)2 is another good powder that meters very well.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Read my mind
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rapidrob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reloader-15 is a great powder for the .223, the powder grains are short and easy to measure.
BL(C)2 is another good powder that meters very well. </div></div>
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

When looking at the burn rate chart('s), Varget, R15, BL C 2, AA2520 and Ramshot about in th esame range?
Have wondered about all the recomentaions for 335, Tac, winchester 748 powder, for the 69, 75 grain bullets, seems like a partial case fill wth the heavier bullets.
I am loading .308, .223 and have been tried R15, AA2520, BLC2, Varget, TAC. I like a full case, slight compressed, so this needs the slower powder in the burn range of Varget or R15, ball or stick?
Educate me?
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Raf squared me away as far as the ball powders. Temperature sesitivity. I concur or at least feel correct in filling the case as much as possible, as in Load Density. As I primarily shoot 52 grainers, and only have tried up to 69 grainers, I look for a powder recommended for those range weights. Varget seemed to be everyones choice accross the weight ranges. Again, metering is important to me for speed in reloading.

Paying attention to the details of the press moving, primers, that sometimes want to turn over and go in backwards, checking case lengths on each fired case, getting a sequence that I can load more per hour and still get it done. I don't want to trickle powder. I do enough of that with the 4064 for .243, .308, and 25-06. I weigh each of those loads; have to with the 4064. When that's gone, I'm looking to buy a 5 or 8 lb can that I can meter all of those with the Dillon.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Stay away from ball powders if you're concerned with accuracy.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stay away from ball powders if you're concerned with accuracy. </div></div>


funny... I have a few loads with different ball powders that are quite accurate... sub MOA style.

I always thought there was more to accuracy than the type of powder you used...


I guess I got it all wrong.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Ball powders work very well and there is no reason to believe they are less accurate.
I prefer powders like Hodgdons Extreme Extruded line only because of the increased temp insensitivity I have experienced.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Raf...

Agreed... my powder of choice: Varget, but I also have used H/IMR 4895 in .223 as far as extruded powders go...

For ball powders I've used 748, AA2520, BLC-2, TAC, X-Terminator...


I have tack driver loads for each of these powders. I have experienced less temp issues with TAC & X-Terminator than I have with other ball powders. I've intentionally tried to test these things, and I've found less variation with the Ramshot powders than I have with others.


I've also found that these powders are considerably cleaner in my ARs.


Shoot straight!
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

I agree completely, Will.
I have only tried a few ball powders and found them extremely accurate but sensitive.

If BLC2 were less sensitive.......it would be my favorite powder, easily.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

oooooo... I got a BCL2 load with a 175 SMK for .308 that is just sexy... but not so good for TX summers...<grin>

Have you tried the RAMSHOT line?? I'll be doing some more load dev with both .223 & .308 this fall/winter and seeing how they perform once it starts to heat up down here...
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Well, after all was said and done, the shop only had BCL-(2) and IMR 4895, so I got the BLC-(2). It was the last pound they had. Then the funny reference change was noted. Speeer #9 from 1974, my first loading book said 26 grs was max for a 52 grainer, and noted the use of a mag primer. Hodgdon web said 26 grs was the starting load w/o a mag primer Lyman 47 said max load is 27 grs. and the web says max is 28 grains. Figuring the web from the manuf. was the latest and takes into consideration all changes in technology, I'm using that. Testing 3 loads today, 26, 26.5 and 27.1. all at max mag length.

Have to admit, it meter to the .100 grain in my .550. Since the range is covered, I won't worry about temp, until I start out in the woods for crows.

Will, what's your load for IMR 4895? You probably shoot heavier pills than I do, but you know we always want to know what someone else is doing. I figure this pound will be gone in a few weeks if I load all the .223 brass I have around. Esp. if one of these 3 loads is a sweet spot, and I skip watching the Dolphins when I get home today. I should load 259 rounds out of this, using 27 gr. loads and I have more empty cases than that.I'm also a brass hog, at the range. LC and Remington Brass, I clean up for the spray and pray crowed who throw once fired brass away. It occurs to me I should be buying 5 or 8lb cans as Qee suggested, as I will no doubt have to order on line, and pay the HazMat charge.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stay away from ball powders if you're concerned with accuracy. </div></div>


funny... I have a few loads with different ball powders that are quite accurate... sub MOA style.

I always thought there was more to accuracy than the type of powder you used...


I guess I got it all wrong. </div></div>

Name even one top rifle match shooter, regardless of the caliber shot that uses ball powder. I don't believe it can be done.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ball powders work very well and there is no reason to believe they are less accurate.
I prefer powders like Hodgdons Extreme Extruded line only because of the increased temp insensitivity I have experienced. </div></div>

Tell that to all the high power shooters that are still shooting extruded powder or to the Army that insisted on using extruded powders even when Stoner told them not to 50 years ago!

If ball powders were as accurate as stick powders, our sniper ammo would have been using them a long time ago. They haven't, and they don't, because even the best ball powder cannot compete with stick powder.

I'm sure you found a ball powder load that it consistent enough for your purposes and that can deliver five rounds on target in a nice group. I've done the same with my AR, where I've been happy with the performance for 200 yards on down.

With that said, I won't ever load anything with expensive bullets and ball powder, because I know that the maximum accuracy at distance is available with stick powder.

Ball powder works great with cheap bullets to give good blasting ammo (even out to 200+), but you won't see me at the 600 yard line with anything loaded with ball powder.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

the use of extruded powders over ball powders has NOTHING to do with the accuracy... It has to do with the fact that ball powder can be more temp sensitive than an extruded powder...

Consistent enough for MY purposes?? My purposes and my expectations probably exceed most. Don't think for one minute I load crap plinkin' ammo for minute 'o target.

Even my plinkin' ammo will outshoot most... I can drop 25gr of RAMSHOT X-TERMINATOR and hit at 600yds no issue... and hit a 6" popper with regularity. Ask CKA and SuperBee... they were there watching me do it.

ETA: That was with a 50gr V-Max out of a RRA 16" carbine...<grin>



Just because you can't do it, or desire not to do it, does not make it so...

 
Re: Substitute for Varget

OK GUYS, This is like, every man has an opinion, and every man in entitled to it. What works for you, is, what works for you. I ended up with a ball powder, BCL-(2), as that was all they had, other than IMR 4895, that was recommended to me here. That was the last pound they had. I'm wondering what the difference will be between "H" and "I" 4895. The sooner someone tells me that, I can grab the last can of that in stock too.

Will, I made it to the range and now have an idea of what works for me, in the BCL-(2). Then there's the issue of seating depth. Found out that the .516 group with varget, worked with a seating depth, I didn't record. The subsequent loadings of Varget, didn't shoot that tight today, but I know the seating depth was not the same. It could just be me, but, I like to think that consistency, gives, consistency. The Dolphins are not on, so it's Dillon time!

On the otherhand, BLC meters to the .100 grain, so I will seat a little deeper with the same load and see Wed. what affect that has. I doubt that I am as good a shooter as you, just getting back into it after 5 years, but I can tell my comfort level goes up with every trip to the range. I prefer extruded powder for load density, ball for progessive loading. I couldn't get Varget to throw the exact same load time after time, but BLC is the same, every time. It's cool here now, the range is covered, so temp should not be an issue. Training, practice, repetition in the loading process; will improve my accuracy, over, what I hope is a short time. Heck, I'm trying to go twice a week again. Then I'm putting on the service rifle upper and seeing what I need to do to make a load for that. I know I need a 5 or 8lb. can of some powder, for sure.

What's the differnce between plinking ammo an match ammo? Once my press is set up to give me that .516 group, that's where it will stay until some variable, like varget to something else, Armalite NM or Bushmaster ES 16 changes. Then it will be brass separated for each upper I shoot from. I bought the Bushmaster to shoot BS ammo out of, rather than the NM. but what the heck, if I can load for the two, and get great results, what's a depth, or load change for 200 rounds that shoot well, worth?

 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Will, if you don't mind sharing the data on IMR 4895, I'd appreciate the information. I shoot two uppers that are 1:8 and one that is 1:9. You probably shoot heavier pills than My 52's but a little shared insight, only makes me that much better. Posted best accuracy info isn't always available.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

I looked through my notes and I found some data...

looks like 26gr of IMR4895 under a 52gr nosler competition yielded good results for me. I'm loading to 2.255 OAL. This is from a 20" 1:9

I also show that it shot well in my 1:9 16" carbine.

26gr IMR4895
win/rp brass
CCI 400 primer
52gr nosler
2.255 OAL

also:

26.5gr BL-C(2)
win/rp brass
CCI 400 primer
52gr nosler & 50gr A-Max
2.255 OAL
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Thanks Will. 26.0 grs. gave me the best group with BL-C Yesterday. OAL max length to still fit in mag. Bet that some adjustment to the OAL with tighten up my groups. So, I'll do 2 sets of 10 for further testing and do a better job of tracking the details, like OAL. I found not having the same OAL with the Varget loads resulted in not as tight a group.

I think I'll grab that last can of IMR 4895 too. I'm on e-mail alert for Varget and RL 15 from Natchez. Midsouth projects, no Varget until January, and no RL 15 until late Dec.

Spoke to one of the "Nazi" range officers at Markham yesterday. They do have a method to their madness. They check bores before they let you shoot and before you leave. Found a squib in a guys barrel, in a gun he bought from some aquaintance. He'd have found it himself, if he'd attempted to clean it before coming to the range; or inspected it at all before he bought it. Novice mistake, saved by grace and the strict rules at Markham. It ain't all that bad under those circumstances.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Will,
Have you ever done an OCW test on any of your loads? I know the subject is somewhere else on this site, so anyone completing the test; give me an indication of it's resulting, practical benefit.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Depends on how many your loading. Varget is THE powder for the .223. However you need to weigh every charge since it throws like crap, which is ok for a bolt gun.

If your loading for a AR semi etc. and loading a lot of cases I use AA2520.
Yes it is more temperature sensitive than Varget, but so is Reloader 15 etc. but then again you are not using bolt gun loads in a semi auto so it dosen't matter as much.
AA2520 goes through the Powder measure like water and is within a tenth from charge to charge. In a semi it saves a lot of time at the reloading bench.

Danny
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gnfiter3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm wondering what the difference will be between "H" and "I" 4895. The sooner someone tells me that, I can grab the last can of that in stock too.
</div></div>

Its a different burn rate. the two 4895's are similar, but NOT interchangable.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gnfiter3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm wondering what the difference will be between "H" and "I" 4895. The sooner someone tells me that, I can grab the last can of that in stock too.
</div></div>

Its a different burn rate. the two 4895's are similar, but NOT interchangable. </div></div>

Stick length is different too - H throws better than I.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

H better Than I is the info that matters to me. Figure I can work a load that shoots with either, but, for 100 rounds a sitting, that's a lot of tricklin'.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

Dreever:
Good word! Saving time. I like the way BLC throws for the # of rounds I load, still working on a seating depth that gives me the groups I got from the last/best Varget loads. Metering is important to me for .223. I have three .308's, but I don't shoot the hunting gun anymore. Concentrating on the 40X, and the AR-10, using 4064. Interesting point, different loads for bolts and auto's. I have the bolt load (43.0 grs.), and was wondering, soon to find out, how that load would work in the AR. 43 is the mid point in the old Lyman 47 manual, and have had good results in the AR with 41.5. Not pushing the speed envelope, as my range is only 100 yrds. Still, trickli' that 4064 is going to be slow when I start shoot the AR-10 more often. Varget was thowing +/- .2 grains in the 550.

Still interested in finding from shooters who have done the OCW test??
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

well for what my noobie 2 cents are worth, i recently set out with the aim of using same powder for all my rifle needs and from something that is VERY available, since ive not seen varget readily on a shelf since i began reloading several months ago. ive tried blc-2 for 5.56 and .308 with good results, meters well and seemed accurate, but had a real funny smell when shooting and seemed to dirty things up rather quickly. im shifting over to imr4064 for both calibers for above reasons as well as the fact that ive found blc2 too slow for m1a use and 4064 hits that need nicely. still havent had the pleasure to try imr4895 which is the other m1a freindly powder i was wanting to try. probably might get around to testing rl-15 and varget to see what all the hype is about but seems too far down the burn rate chart for gas guns im runnin so...hope this is useful to someone.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

You really can't go wrong with 4064 in .308, but for .223, you'll be loading a while to get those grains in that little hole. As indicated, I want something that meters consistently for .223. I spend enoung time weighing every round of .308 and .243, and I have not started on my new 25-05 loads. Interesting to note, that as I looked for a one powder for all I do, 4064 will do it; but so slowly for the .223. Varget, will do it all too, but who can find it?

I have pounds of 4064 so I will not be doing .308 with BLC.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well for what my noobie 2 cents are worth, i recently set out with the aim of using same powder for all my rifle needs and from something that is VERY available, since ive not seen varget readily on a shelf since i began reloading several months ago. ive tried blc-2 for 5.56 and .308 with good results,........</div></div>

That's why I use IMR4895. Its relatively stable temp-wise (1/2 moa change in 500yd 223 dope from 40*-100*) plus it works well in my 308, 7-08, and 223. I don't mind tossing a little short then trickling for single loading, and with either my Redding or (believe it or not) my Lee PPM measures it throws well enough for short range volume ammo.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

883, Is your .223 gas or bolt. and is throwing a little short allowing you to stay sub-moa?
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

AR15. I throw short, then trickle to final charge. Loads that are just thrown (I weigh every tenth to make sure throws are within a .1 of a grain) are good enough for matches that involve steel 600 yards and in.

I don't know about sub-moa, I smoke and drink to much coffee-not the best group shooter and don't really care. When I work up a load I run an OCW test and find a load that is moa or better, then shoot it at 200, 300 and 500 to see if it hangs around moa.
If so, I'm done with load development and shoot. The driving factor in doing an OCW workup (for me) is to find a load that is forgiving with charge weight and will shoot well in more than one rifle of that caliber.

I find joy in the shooting end of the game, not dialing one load perfectly into one rifle to get little bughole groups. A good OCW load should run like FGMM, maybe not shooting the best possible groups in one specific tube, but shooting MOA or better in any rifle capable of it every time.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

That's one school of thought in using the OCW, as little I understand it. That's why FGMM is so popular. On the otherhand, as rifle barrels are a bit, if not very, different in their harmonics; I thought the point was to do it for every rifle, then fine tune the OAL for absolute optimum performance. I think, that's what I would do if I shot at a really long ranges. As it is, I just work up a load that shoots "bugholes" at 100 from each gun I shot. And like you, coffee an cigs, don't help. In .308, that's a bolt and an auto. Would you expect my 43 grains of 4064 to shoot as well in my AR as it does in the 40X? Or would you recommend an OWC for both? Not only are the systems different, the 40X has a much heavier barrel than the AR.

That's part of what I'm trying to understand about the OCW theory, applied practically. I once, off the coffee and cigs, and off a bench, wind at my back, shot 10 rounds of Blk Hills 168's. Eight of them were covered with a .25 cent piece, and the other two touched the rim of said piece. I'd love to have that confidence in the load for that AR.
 
Re: Substitute for Varget

There is no substitute for Varget. I load my 223 in a 550b with no charging issues as long as I take my time and watch every case.
 
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