A buddy of mine just bought his first two supressors and I had a question in regards to the paperwork. I know that any time that he has them out shooting, he has to have his form 4's with tax stamp. My question is can he use hi-res color copies and keep the originals in a safe place or do they have to be the original form 4's. He is going to do them on a trust and I am going to be one of the beneficiaries on the trust.
Suppressors Supressor Question
- Thread starter YetiSlayer
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Re: Supressor Question
actually there is no "requirement" to have a copy of the tax stamp...but it is a good idea... as well as a copy of the trust... the originals should be stored somewhere safe and copies carried w/ the NFA item...
as to you being a beneficiary.. that does NOT give you use of the NFA item w/o a "trustee", "granor", "settler", etc (depending of what your state uses) present... only the "owners" can have possession/control of an NFA item, w/ a trust those are the people who granted the property to the trust and have a measure of control over it... not the beneficiaries, who have no control until the grantor dies
actually there is no "requirement" to have a copy of the tax stamp...but it is a good idea... as well as a copy of the trust... the originals should be stored somewhere safe and copies carried w/ the NFA item...
as to you being a beneficiary.. that does NOT give you use of the NFA item w/o a "trustee", "granor", "settler", etc (depending of what your state uses) present... only the "owners" can have possession/control of an NFA item, w/ a trust those are the people who granted the property to the trust and have a measure of control over it... not the beneficiaries, who have no control until the grantor dies
Re: Supressor Question
Make lots of regular copies and the put the original in the safe, or wherever you keep important stuff.
Put copies in places where you will alway have on with you,( i.e. Wallet, glovebox, range bag, whatever)
Some people have had the shrank to credit card size for their wallet.
I am not sure if any of the above is required, but I do keep the copies around.
Just don't misplace the original.
Make lots of regular copies and the put the original in the safe, or wherever you keep important stuff.
Put copies in places where you will alway have on with you,( i.e. Wallet, glovebox, range bag, whatever)
Some people have had the shrank to credit card size for their wallet.
I am not sure if any of the above is required, but I do keep the copies around.
Just don't misplace the original.
Re: Supressor Question
What those guys said. I keep the original in the safe and a copy in my wallet. Anytime I take it out, I make sure a copy is on me.
What those guys said. I keep the original in the safe and a copy in my wallet. Anytime I take it out, I make sure a copy is on me.
Re: Supressor Question
As some have said, there probably is not a direct requirement to have the actual form and tax stamp with you; however, most of us are a very cautious lot who would prefer to nip any conflict (with the law) in the bud so to speak.
Personally, with each new form 4 and tax stamp I make 8 color copies. I label each as a copy and have them laminated. The original goes back in the envelop in which I received it and that goes into my security document safe.
As for the laminated copies, one each goes into each vehicle I own (usually under the carpet in the back seat or trunk) and one each goes into each range bag I own (usually flat in the bottom so its out of the way.)
Since I have never gone to a range without a range bag I am usually not very far from a copy of the appropriate stamp if needed. Now, that being said, it is also true that I have never needed to show a stamp. But if I do I'm ready.
This is not gospel and you (and others) may elect to do something different and that's fine - knock your socks off. This is what I do and YRMV. Welcome to the world of the hearing (/) impaired.
As some have said, there probably is not a direct requirement to have the actual form and tax stamp with you; however, most of us are a very cautious lot who would prefer to nip any conflict (with the law) in the bud so to speak.
Personally, with each new form 4 and tax stamp I make 8 color copies. I label each as a copy and have them laminated. The original goes back in the envelop in which I received it and that goes into my security document safe.
As for the laminated copies, one each goes into each vehicle I own (usually under the carpet in the back seat or trunk) and one each goes into each range bag I own (usually flat in the bottom so its out of the way.)
Since I have never gone to a range without a range bag I am usually not very far from a copy of the appropriate stamp if needed. Now, that being said, it is also true that I have never needed to show a stamp. But if I do I'm ready.
This is not gospel and you (and others) may elect to do something different and that's fine - knock your socks off. This is what I do and YRMV. Welcome to the world of the hearing (/) impaired.
Re: Supressor Question
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html
Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?
Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html
Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?
Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.
Re: Supressor Question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dead-bird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html
Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?
Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers.</span></span> It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.
</div></div>
So does this suggest that a "typical LEO" would need to contact an ATF Agent in order to question you about your suppressor paperwork?
If they specifically list that it needs to be available for ATF Officers...why would I need to provide it to some other type of officer?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dead-bird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html
Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?
Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers.</span></span> It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.
</div></div>
So does this suggest that a "typical LEO" would need to contact an ATF Agent in order to question you about your suppressor paperwork?
If they specifically list that it needs to be available for ATF Officers...why would I need to provide it to some other type of officer?
Re: Supressor Question
I would always have a copy with and present it to any LEO that asks, better to not cause any problems.
I would always have a copy with and present it to any LEO that asks, better to not cause any problems.
Re: Supressor Question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dead-bird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html
Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?
Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers.</span></span> It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.
</div></div>
So does this suggest that a "typical LEO" would need to contact an ATF Agent in order to question you about your suppressor paperwork?
If they specifically list that it needs to be available for ATF Officers...why would I need to provide it to some other type of officer?</div></div>
I bet most LEO's haven't even seen one, but keeping a copy is a good idea. As shitty as it is a phone call from a dumbass at the range gives them probable cause to question you, and you'd better be able to show them that you have it legally or you might be waiting in a cell for the ATF to show up and verify the documents you have at home. Just carry a copy to make others peoples ignorance easier to deal with. You have your registration in your car for the same purpose and you'd find that if a LEO is looking for a car identical to yours that was stolen that little piece of paper will save you alot of time, and headaches. I don't see any reason to make a LEO's job any harder than it has to be, especially if it's me they are questioning. JMHO
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c_bass16</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dead-bird</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html
Q: Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her?
Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner’s name. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers.</span></span> It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.
</div></div>
So does this suggest that a "typical LEO" would need to contact an ATF Agent in order to question you about your suppressor paperwork?
If they specifically list that it needs to be available for ATF Officers...why would I need to provide it to some other type of officer?</div></div>
I bet most LEO's haven't even seen one, but keeping a copy is a good idea. As shitty as it is a phone call from a dumbass at the range gives them probable cause to question you, and you'd better be able to show them that you have it legally or you might be waiting in a cell for the ATF to show up and verify the documents you have at home. Just carry a copy to make others peoples ignorance easier to deal with. You have your registration in your car for the same purpose and you'd find that if a LEO is looking for a car identical to yours that was stolen that little piece of paper will save you alot of time, and headaches. I don't see any reason to make a LEO's job any harder than it has to be, especially if it's me they are questioning. JMHO
Re: Supressor Question
Also I've had a few local LEO's at the range ask me about mine and a couple of them thought they were illegal to civilians. None of them had ever seen a form 4.
Also I've had a few local LEO's at the range ask me about mine and a couple of them thought they were illegal to civilians. None of them had ever seen a form 4.
Re: Supressor Question
I have mine on a trust.
I carry a copy of the trust with me. I also carry blank copies of the trustee form. If I need to go to the bathroom and hand somone my suppressed rifle and he's not on the trust. We are both in trouble. At the end of the day I tear up the form and back to the Grantor and Trustee as specified.
This allows me to let other people shoot my Class 3 items.
Yes this as been approved.
It was drawn by an attorney.
I have mine on a trust.
I carry a copy of the trust with me. I also carry blank copies of the trustee form. If I need to go to the bathroom and hand somone my suppressed rifle and he's not on the trust. We are both in trouble. At the end of the day I tear up the form and back to the Grantor and Trustee as specified.
This allows me to let other people shoot my Class 3 items.
Yes this as been approved.
It was drawn by an attorney.
Re: Supressor Question
A good copy for travel might save a lot of hassles , especially with all of the terrorist/gangbanger stuff going on nowadays . HOWEVER , do not store the paperwork with the Class-III items in transit . If someone 'in the know' gets the weapon/silencer and papers , it is possible for him to generate enough documentation for a legitimate sale , so I've been told by people who deal in Class-III items ...
A good copy for travel might save a lot of hassles , especially with all of the terrorist/gangbanger stuff going on nowadays . HOWEVER , do not store the paperwork with the Class-III items in transit . If someone 'in the know' gets the weapon/silencer and papers , it is possible for him to generate enough documentation for a legitimate sale , so I've been told by people who deal in Class-III items ...
Re: Supressor Question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dunes450r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it is required to carry at least a copy of the approved stamp with you, not to mention its a very good idea with the amount of uninformed "silencers are illegal" people running around </div></div>
Dunes, I've always heard this and while I'm not saying you are wrong but I guess I am saying it (just mildly.)
From the ATF's own FAQ referenced above they say - <span style="font-style: italic">"It is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold"> <span style="color: #FF0000"> suggested</span></span></span> that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported."</span> (emphasis added)
IMHO, I doubt they would 'suggest' if it was required; however, I have not studied the statute and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so you may be correct.
ETA:
Dunes, I just read your post in another thread here
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dunes450r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I make multiple copies and carry one where the can goes, and as stated lock up the original in a safe place.</div></div>
and I think we are on the same page. I do the same thing (make copies - lock up original) just to avoid issues with ROs, LEOs, FBI Agents, just about anyone with a badge. (Although ROs are real close the 'piss off' catagory. The down side with them is that they are very influential in getting ALL title 2 items banned from that range. So I tend to cut them a little slack IYKWIM-V.)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dunes450r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it is required to carry at least a copy of the approved stamp with you, not to mention its a very good idea with the amount of uninformed "silencers are illegal" people running around </div></div>
Dunes, I've always heard this and while I'm not saying you are wrong but I guess I am saying it (just mildly.)
From the ATF's own FAQ referenced above they say - <span style="font-style: italic">"It is <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold"> <span style="color: #FF0000"> suggested</span></span></span> that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported."</span> (emphasis added)
IMHO, I doubt they would 'suggest' if it was required; however, I have not studied the statute and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so you may be correct.
ETA:
Dunes, I just read your post in another thread here
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dunes450r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I make multiple copies and carry one where the can goes, and as stated lock up the original in a safe place.</div></div>
and I think we are on the same page. I do the same thing (make copies - lock up original) just to avoid issues with ROs, LEOs, FBI Agents, just about anyone with a badge. (Although ROs are real close the 'piss off' catagory. The down side with them is that they are very influential in getting ALL title 2 items banned from that range. So I tend to cut them a little slack IYKWIM-V.)
Re: Supressor Question
In my experiences with LE, if they question the legality of your item, they don't know what a Form 4 is, or even that you can have suppressors.
Having a legible copy of a valid Form 4 is good insurance, but nothing ensures you won't run across a dipshit civilian (as you know) or a dickhead cop (they are out there, but I haven't ever run into one, as far as NFA stuff goes).
Having kept one's nose clean with local LE goes great distances when dealing with them when firearms are involved. Though having made friends with the traffic cops has familiarized them to me. As has cutting apart their MP5s with a torch.
In my experiences with LE, if they question the legality of your item, they don't know what a Form 4 is, or even that you can have suppressors.
Having a legible copy of a valid Form 4 is good insurance, but nothing ensures you won't run across a dipshit civilian (as you know) or a dickhead cop (they are out there, but I haven't ever run into one, as far as NFA stuff goes).
Having kept one's nose clean with local LE goes great distances when dealing with them when firearms are involved. Though having made friends with the traffic cops has familiarized them to me. As has cutting apart their MP5s with a torch.
