F T/R Competition Supressors
- Thread starter ghorsley
- Start date
Re: Supressors
Unfortunately, no. F-Class is part of High Power and so falls under it's rules.
3.16.1 Compensators and Muzzle Brakes - The use of compensators or muzzle brakes is prohibited. An
extension tube that has been installed on the muzzle of a rifle to extend the sight radius shall not be considered a
“muzzle brake.” The extension tube must have an interior diameter of .5 inches or greater and may have 1/4” x 1”
slots cut at 12 and 6 o’clock to remove cleaning patches. Threaded holes along the top of this tube for the
installation of sight bases will be allowed.
(a) Sound suppressors are not authorized for use in high power competition.
Unfortunately, no. F-Class is part of High Power and so falls under it's rules.
3.16.1 Compensators and Muzzle Brakes - The use of compensators or muzzle brakes is prohibited. An
extension tube that has been installed on the muzzle of a rifle to extend the sight radius shall not be considered a
“muzzle brake.” The extension tube must have an interior diameter of .5 inches or greater and may have 1/4” x 1”
slots cut at 12 and 6 o’clock to remove cleaning patches. Threaded holes along the top of this tube for the
installation of sight bases will be allowed.
(a) Sound suppressors are not authorized for use in high power competition.
Re: Supressors
Short version: suppressors make effective brakes, which are not legal in NRA High Power for various reasons. Since suppressors are not legal in every state, people with suppressors would potentially have an unfair advantage over those who can not own them.
Thats the short-n-sweet version. It's been hashed over ad nauseum; I'd recommend doing a search on the topic in this forum as it comes up somewhat regularly if you want the longer version(s) complete with emotional rants.
Short version: suppressors make effective brakes, which are not legal in NRA High Power for various reasons. Since suppressors are not legal in every state, people with suppressors would potentially have an unfair advantage over those who can not own them.
Thats the short-n-sweet version. It's been hashed over ad nauseum; I'd recommend doing a search on the topic in this forum as it comes up somewhat regularly if you want the longer version(s) complete with emotional rants.
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the logic behind not allowing a suppressor? </div></div>
First of all understand that F-TR = F- Target Rifle, not <span style="font-style: italic">Tactical Rifle</span>, look at the F class history, it started with guys putting scopes and bipods on Palma Rifles for fun.
One of the things that is not immediately apparent to folks who've never participated in NRA events is that shooter rankings and scores are compiled and compared, it is in fact "competitive shooting", and that's part of the competition. That's why there are defined courses of fire, target demins, suppressor prohibitions, and any number of other rules. The NRA cant keep the national records up to date as it is, I can't imagine them trying to keep 8 or 12 new sub sets current. Look at the posting in this room when the new match record for a 20 shots for record was set, we all get it and other than atmospherics that day it's the same thing we all do.
Another reality is that the NRA Competitive shooting branch is very slow to change, their history is sling and irons, so F class in general is still the read headed step child. (Go to the NRA site and try to find the results from the F class Nationals)
If you want to shoot cans and suppressors go to tactical shoots, there are lots of them. If you want to test your skill trying to hit a small 10 ring at 1000 yards, shoot F class.
There has been a suggestion before the NRA High Power section to recognize another F-class that is a more tactical style rifle, but even in there they don't accept muzzle devices. If you are interested you can read that S#!+ Storm Here
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the logic behind not allowing a suppressor? </div></div>
First of all understand that F-TR = F- Target Rifle, not <span style="font-style: italic">Tactical Rifle</span>, look at the F class history, it started with guys putting scopes and bipods on Palma Rifles for fun.
One of the things that is not immediately apparent to folks who've never participated in NRA events is that shooter rankings and scores are compiled and compared, it is in fact "competitive shooting", and that's part of the competition. That's why there are defined courses of fire, target demins, suppressor prohibitions, and any number of other rules. The NRA cant keep the national records up to date as it is, I can't imagine them trying to keep 8 or 12 new sub sets current. Look at the posting in this room when the new match record for a 20 shots for record was set, we all get it and other than atmospherics that day it's the same thing we all do.
Another reality is that the NRA Competitive shooting branch is very slow to change, their history is sling and irons, so F class in general is still the read headed step child. (Go to the NRA site and try to find the results from the F class Nationals)
If you want to shoot cans and suppressors go to tactical shoots, there are lots of them. If you want to test your skill trying to hit a small 10 ring at 1000 yards, shoot F class.
There has been a suggestion before the NRA High Power section to recognize another F-class that is a more tactical style rifle, but even in there they don't accept muzzle devices. If you are interested you can read that S#!+ Storm Here
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Draconian.....Maybe the NRA should set a dollar amount on how much you can spend for a rifle as well.
I like shooting F Class, but I would like it better shooting with a supressor. </div></div>
really? What's draconian? I don't think cans or comps are evil, in fact I like them, but understand where this shooting discipline came from, and the organization that sanctions it. They don't sanction USPSA/IPSC either, it's not their deal.
Dollar amount, sure. What would you propose? I've got $1700 in the rifle and $1500 in my NF scope and I came home from the Nationals with a gold medal. The current National Champion is shooting a stock Savage action in a Widden bedding block, not some $1500 action. Considering that MSRP on a Savage 12F-TR or a Remington R5 is north of $1200 that's pretty small money (like the cost of the McMillian Stock) Money doesn't buy score. I've had my ass handed to me by stock Savages.
BTW, How long a barrel can you mount and still make weight with a can? Look at the winners at any major event, there are no short barrels there. If I'm playing to win not just to participate then I'm showing up with my 33" tube pushing heavies as hard as I can; unless you get an extra weight allowance for a can, then I'll run one, but it's more just to add weight.
Another thing, I shot 1700+ rounds last yr in competition and practice, how long will cans hold up under that? (That's an honest question)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Draconian.....Maybe the NRA should set a dollar amount on how much you can spend for a rifle as well.
I like shooting F Class, but I would like it better shooting with a supressor. </div></div>
really? What's draconian? I don't think cans or comps are evil, in fact I like them, but understand where this shooting discipline came from, and the organization that sanctions it. They don't sanction USPSA/IPSC either, it's not their deal.
Dollar amount, sure. What would you propose? I've got $1700 in the rifle and $1500 in my NF scope and I came home from the Nationals with a gold medal. The current National Champion is shooting a stock Savage action in a Widden bedding block, not some $1500 action. Considering that MSRP on a Savage 12F-TR or a Remington R5 is north of $1200 that's pretty small money (like the cost of the McMillian Stock) Money doesn't buy score. I've had my ass handed to me by stock Savages.
BTW, How long a barrel can you mount and still make weight with a can? Look at the winners at any major event, there are no short barrels there. If I'm playing to win not just to participate then I'm showing up with my 33" tube pushing heavies as hard as I can; unless you get an extra weight allowance for a can, then I'll run one, but it's more just to add weight.
Another thing, I shot 1700+ rounds last yr in competition and practice, how long will cans hold up under that? (That's an honest question)
Re: Supressors
here we go again
here we go again
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Another thing, I shot 1700+ rounds last yr in competition and practice, how long will cans hold up under that? (That's an honest question) </div></div>
50k+ with ease, assuming a good can made with reputable materials. I expect to pass my TBAC down to my kids, and I shoot a lot more than 1700 rounds a year.
I'll hold my tongue on the suppressor/F-TR issue, save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Another thing, I shot 1700+ rounds last yr in competition and practice, how long will cans hold up under that? (That's an honest question) </div></div>
50k+ with ease, assuming a good can made with reputable materials. I expect to pass my TBAC down to my kids, and I shoot a lot more than 1700 rounds a year.
I'll hold my tongue on the suppressor/F-TR issue, save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it.
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ..., save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
I just flat do not understand that attitude. Unless you are shooting in a tactical match somewhere why would you not screw the can off and shoot a match?
I cannot imagine sitting at home on a Saturday morning and thinking to myself, "I'd love to go over to Oak Ridge and shoot that F class match this weekend, but they won't let me use my suppressor so I'll sit here and watch ice road truckers instead". Nope I don't buy it, it's a convenient excuse to not get out and shoot matches.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ..., save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
I just flat do not understand that attitude. Unless you are shooting in a tactical match somewhere why would you not screw the can off and shoot a match?
I cannot imagine sitting at home on a Saturday morning and thinking to myself, "I'd love to go over to Oak Ridge and shoot that F class match this weekend, but they won't let me use my suppressor so I'll sit here and watch ice road truckers instead". Nope I don't buy it, it's a convenient excuse to not get out and shoot matches.
Re: Supressors
XTR,
You are shooting at a different level than most of us. I personally can't relate to winning a national championship. Congratulations!
My reference to the NRA regulating cost of equipment was not meant to be taken literally.
The rules are the rules and that is fine with me. I just think it would be more fun for more people if supressors were allowed......you, as a national champion, I am sure would be an advocate for bringing more shooters into the sport.
Gil Horsley
XTR,
You are shooting at a different level than most of us. I personally can't relate to winning a national championship. Congratulations!
My reference to the NRA regulating cost of equipment was not meant to be taken literally.
The rules are the rules and that is fine with me. I just think it would be more fun for more people if supressors were allowed......you, as a national champion, I am sure would be an advocate for bringing more shooters into the sport.
Gil Horsley
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ..., save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
I just flat do not understand that attitude. Unless you are shooting in a tactical match somewhere why would you not screw the can off and shoot a match?
I cannot imagine sitting at home on a Saturday morning and thinking to myself, "I'd love to go over to Oak Ridge and shoot that F class match this weekend, but they won't let me use my suppressor so I'll sit here and watch ice road truckers instead". Nope I don't buy it, it's a convenient excuse to not get out and shoot matches. </div></div>
Because I will be running my competition gun suppressed in 2013. Simple as that. Before that, my main match gun (260) was braked. I use f-tr as a way to verify dope, and work on fundamentals, for tactical matches...which are my primary focus. My dope changes suppressed vs. unsuppressed, my POI changes suppressed vs. unsuppressed, and It's not my idea of fun to keep switching back and forth because the NRA is still behind the curve.
I'd rather take that weekend and go shoot steel with like minded folks, running different match scenarios, running and gunning, and every one of us shooting suppressed or braked.
Also, I think it's hilarious that you think that people don't shoot matches because they don't show up at a local NRA sponsored event. Instead, they might be shooting in their local tactical rifle club match (third weekend of the every month here in Texas), or traveling to PRS events to compete at a national level, or going to Rifles Only or K&M to train...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ..., save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
I just flat do not understand that attitude. Unless you are shooting in a tactical match somewhere why would you not screw the can off and shoot a match?
I cannot imagine sitting at home on a Saturday morning and thinking to myself, "I'd love to go over to Oak Ridge and shoot that F class match this weekend, but they won't let me use my suppressor so I'll sit here and watch ice road truckers instead". Nope I don't buy it, it's a convenient excuse to not get out and shoot matches. </div></div>
Because I will be running my competition gun suppressed in 2013. Simple as that. Before that, my main match gun (260) was braked. I use f-tr as a way to verify dope, and work on fundamentals, for tactical matches...which are my primary focus. My dope changes suppressed vs. unsuppressed, my POI changes suppressed vs. unsuppressed, and It's not my idea of fun to keep switching back and forth because the NRA is still behind the curve.
I'd rather take that weekend and go shoot steel with like minded folks, running different match scenarios, running and gunning, and every one of us shooting suppressed or braked.
Also, I think it's hilarious that you think that people don't shoot matches because they don't show up at a local NRA sponsored event. Instead, they might be shooting in their local tactical rifle club match (third weekend of the every month here in Texas), or traveling to PRS events to compete at a national level, or going to Rifles Only or K&M to train...
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">XTR,
You are shooting at a different level than most of us. I personally can't relate to winning a national championship. Congratulations!
Gil Horsley </div></div>
Let me straighten that out real quick. I didn't win the National Championship, Jim Crofts won at Raton this yr. I won one of the 8 matches we shot over 4 days.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrHiggins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">XTR,
You are shooting at a different level than most of us. I personally can't relate to winning a national championship. Congratulations!
Gil Horsley </div></div>
Let me straighten that out real quick. I didn't win the National Championship, Jim Crofts won at Raton this yr. I won one of the 8 matches we shot over 4 days.
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ..., save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
I just flat do not understand that attitude. Unless you are shooting in a tactical match somewhere why would you not screw the can off and shoot a match?
I cannot imagine sitting at home on a Saturday morning and thinking to myself, "I'd love to go over to Oak Ridge and shoot that F class match this weekend, but they won't let me use my suppressor so I'll sit here and watch ice road truckers instead". Nope I don't buy it, it's a convenient excuse to not get out and shoot matches. </div></div>
.....
I'd rather take that weekend and go shoot steel with like minded folks, running different match scenarios, running and gunning, and every one of us shooting suppressed or braked.
Also, <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I think it's hilarious that you think that people don't shoot matches because they don't show up at a local NRA sponsored event.</span></span> Instead, they might be shooting in their local tactical rifle club match (third weekend of the every month here in Texas), or traveling to PRS events to compete at a national level, or going to Rifles Only or K&M to train... </div></div>
No, you said you and lots of others would be on the line if you could run cans, I said in the quote above that I didn't understand passing a match just because you couldn't run a can. If you really wanted to be on the line you would be.
Now given the option to run and gun or shoot round targets on a square range I doubt you're going to be on the line, ever, right? So your attendance at a round targets on a square field is not really in question on the weekends when you can run and gun and shoot steel, so back to my original position; the option to run cans is not a factor on the weekends when you don't have another shooting option. Basically shooting F class is pretty much a waste of time and ammo for you. I get it. I used to do USPSA/IPSC, I have no interest what so ever in ever shooting bullseye pistol, ever, but I'm not bitching because the Bullseye guys won't let me run a comp and a red dot in their matches either. It is a different discipline, if you want to play soccer then play soccer, if you want to play rugby play rugby, but don't bitch because you can't run with the ball on a soccer pitch.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ..., save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
I just flat do not understand that attitude. Unless you are shooting in a tactical match somewhere why would you not screw the can off and shoot a match?
I cannot imagine sitting at home on a Saturday morning and thinking to myself, "I'd love to go over to Oak Ridge and shoot that F class match this weekend, but they won't let me use my suppressor so I'll sit here and watch ice road truckers instead". Nope I don't buy it, it's a convenient excuse to not get out and shoot matches. </div></div>
.....
I'd rather take that weekend and go shoot steel with like minded folks, running different match scenarios, running and gunning, and every one of us shooting suppressed or braked.
Also, <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I think it's hilarious that you think that people don't shoot matches because they don't show up at a local NRA sponsored event.</span></span> Instead, they might be shooting in their local tactical rifle club match (third weekend of the every month here in Texas), or traveling to PRS events to compete at a national level, or going to Rifles Only or K&M to train... </div></div>
No, you said you and lots of others would be on the line if you could run cans, I said in the quote above that I didn't understand passing a match just because you couldn't run a can. If you really wanted to be on the line you would be.
Now given the option to run and gun or shoot round targets on a square range I doubt you're going to be on the line, ever, right? So your attendance at a round targets on a square field is not really in question on the weekends when you can run and gun and shoot steel, so back to my original position; the option to run cans is not a factor on the weekends when you don't have another shooting option. Basically shooting F class is pretty much a waste of time and ammo for you. I get it. I used to do USPSA/IPSC, I have no interest what so ever in ever shooting bullseye pistol, ever, but I'm not bitching because the Bullseye guys won't let me run a comp and a red dot in their matches either. It is a different discipline, if you want to play soccer then play soccer, if you want to play rugby play rugby, but don't bitch because you can't run with the ball on a soccer pitch.
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ..., save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
I just flat do not understand that attitude. Unless you are shooting in a tactical match somewhere why would you not screw the can off and shoot a match?
</div></div>
I agree with the guy about it being discouraging. I don't have a suppressor yet but I haven't done any matches because I am not allowed to use my brakes. All my rifles have brakes from the factory. I went to 1 or 2 'practices' held by the fclass guys , they were nice enough to let me practice with them. They were all nice guys, but I got the nastiest looks and major 'elitism' from them. They kept insisting the muzzle brakes don't do anything other than make noise and we should just take it off right there. Hell no! After 2 or 3 practice days like this, I decided to never come back, because I got tired of being hassled about my brake.
to be clear, I would understand their looks if I sat right next to them and was blasting sand in their face. However, I was purposely put 2 lanes down from everyone, and on top of that the muzzle brake wasn't picking up any dirt. 1 or 2 of the guys rifles there had no muzzle brakes but were as loud as mine!
It is not an excuse for me. I would not go every week, but I would participate in an occasional match, if it wasn't for these restrictive rules.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ..., save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
I just flat do not understand that attitude. Unless you are shooting in a tactical match somewhere why would you not screw the can off and shoot a match?
</div></div>
I agree with the guy about it being discouraging. I don't have a suppressor yet but I haven't done any matches because I am not allowed to use my brakes. All my rifles have brakes from the factory. I went to 1 or 2 'practices' held by the fclass guys , they were nice enough to let me practice with them. They were all nice guys, but I got the nastiest looks and major 'elitism' from them. They kept insisting the muzzle brakes don't do anything other than make noise and we should just take it off right there. Hell no! After 2 or 3 practice days like this, I decided to never come back, because I got tired of being hassled about my brake.
to be clear, I would understand their looks if I sat right next to them and was blasting sand in their face. However, I was purposely put 2 lanes down from everyone, and on top of that the muzzle brake wasn't picking up any dirt. 1 or 2 of the guys rifles there had no muzzle brakes but were as loud as mine!
It is not an excuse for me. I would not go every week, but I would participate in an occasional match, if it wasn't for these restrictive rules.
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now given the option to run and gun or shoot round targets on a square range I doubt you're going to be on the line, ever, right? So your attendance at a round targets on a square field is not really in question on the weekends when you can run and gun and shoot steel, so back to my original position; the option to run cans is not a factor on the weekends when you don't have another shooting option. Basically shooting F class is pretty much a waste of time and ammo for you. I get it.
</div></div>
Sorry friend, but you are not correct. I live 25 minutes from a fantastic square range, and there is a very dedicated and welcoming group of competitors and MD's for everyone. F/TR matches, for me, are an excellent way to work on trigger control, body position, and verify at distance all of the work that I have put into load development. I'd much rather drive the 25 minutes, be done by 1-ish in the afternoon, and have excellent target feedback from the pits, than to drive an hour an half out of the way (one way!)to have to set up steel/barricades. As arbitrary as you think it might be, for me, it truly is an issue of not being able to run a can...as my main competition rifle will be suppressed in 2013.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I think. Good luck to you, you are obviously shooting well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now given the option to run and gun or shoot round targets on a square range I doubt you're going to be on the line, ever, right? So your attendance at a round targets on a square field is not really in question on the weekends when you can run and gun and shoot steel, so back to my original position; the option to run cans is not a factor on the weekends when you don't have another shooting option. Basically shooting F class is pretty much a waste of time and ammo for you. I get it.
</div></div>
Sorry friend, but you are not correct. I live 25 minutes from a fantastic square range, and there is a very dedicated and welcoming group of competitors and MD's for everyone. F/TR matches, for me, are an excellent way to work on trigger control, body position, and verify at distance all of the work that I have put into load development. I'd much rather drive the 25 minutes, be done by 1-ish in the afternoon, and have excellent target feedback from the pits, than to drive an hour an half out of the way (one way!)to have to set up steel/barricades. As arbitrary as you think it might be, for me, it truly is an issue of not being able to run a can...as my main competition rifle will be suppressed in 2013.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I think. Good luck to you, you are obviously shooting well.
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now given the option to run and gun or shoot round targets on a square range I doubt you're going to be on the line, ever, right? So your attendance at a round targets on a square field is not really in question on the weekends when you can run and gun and shoot steel, so back to my original position; the option to run cans is not a factor on the weekends when you don't have another shooting option. Basically shooting F class is pretty much a waste of time and ammo for you. I get it.
</div></div>
Sorry friend, but you are not correct. I live 25 minutes from a fantastic square range, and there is a very dedicated and welcoming group of competitors and MD's for everyone. F/TR matches, for me, are an excellent way to work on trigger control, body position, and verify at distance all of the work that I have put into load development. I'd much rather drive the 25 minutes, be done by 1-ish in the afternoon, and have excellent target feedback from the pits, than to drive an hour an half out of the way (one way!)to have to set up steel/barricades. As arbitrary as you think it might be, for me, it truly is an issue of not being able to run a can...as my main competition rifle will be suppressed in 2013.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I think. Good luck to you, you are obviously shooting well. </div></div>
Have you looked if they have practice days? Them might let you run a can there, and it could still produce some good practice and DOPE. I'm sure you won't get as much 'elitism attitude' for a suppressor as I did with a brake.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now given the option to run and gun or shoot round targets on a square range I doubt you're going to be on the line, ever, right? So your attendance at a round targets on a square field is not really in question on the weekends when you can run and gun and shoot steel, so back to my original position; the option to run cans is not a factor on the weekends when you don't have another shooting option. Basically shooting F class is pretty much a waste of time and ammo for you. I get it.
</div></div>
Sorry friend, but you are not correct. I live 25 minutes from a fantastic square range, and there is a very dedicated and welcoming group of competitors and MD's for everyone. F/TR matches, for me, are an excellent way to work on trigger control, body position, and verify at distance all of the work that I have put into load development. I'd much rather drive the 25 minutes, be done by 1-ish in the afternoon, and have excellent target feedback from the pits, than to drive an hour an half out of the way (one way!)to have to set up steel/barricades. As arbitrary as you think it might be, for me, it truly is an issue of not being able to run a can...as my main competition rifle will be suppressed in 2013.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I think. Good luck to you, you are obviously shooting well. </div></div>
Have you looked if they have practice days? Them might let you run a can there, and it could still produce some good practice and DOPE. I'm sure you won't get as much 'elitism attitude' for a suppressor as I did with a brake.
Re: Supressors
timelinex, when I bought the rifle that I use in F-TR (from the classifieds here) 2 yrs ago it had a 24" barrel and a brake, I screwed the brake off, put on a thread protector, and went out and shot. I wanted to shoot more than I wanted to shoot with a brake. Your priorities, your decisions.
As for the eliteism thing, that sucks. I've only ever seen that from a very few sling and irons guys toward F-class in general (at Camp Perry someone called us "the end of shooting as we know it")
timelinex, when I bought the rifle that I use in F-TR (from the classifieds here) 2 yrs ago it had a 24" barrel and a brake, I screwed the brake off, put on a thread protector, and went out and shot. I wanted to shoot more than I wanted to shoot with a brake. Your priorities, your decisions.
As for the eliteism thing, that sucks. I've only ever seen that from a very few sling and irons guys toward F-class in general (at Camp Perry someone called us "the end of shooting as we know it")
Re: Supressors
XTR, I can understand your fustration. They need a supressor class. One problem with the brake is not the noise, its the over pressure. It really bothers some people. If they are firing just a little after you they think that will cause them to flinch and pull the shot. I my self hate over pressure. when I am behind the gun it dosen't bother me. When I am just off the gun i can really feel it. Maybe some day they will set the fireing line up to accomidate for the brakes. but as you can well attest to, the NRA is slow to react to the changes in shooting styles.
XTR, I can understand your fustration. They need a supressor class. One problem with the brake is not the noise, its the over pressure. It really bothers some people. If they are firing just a little after you they think that will cause them to flinch and pull the shot. I my self hate over pressure. when I am behind the gun it dosen't bother me. When I am just off the gun i can really feel it. Maybe some day they will set the fireing line up to accomidate for the brakes. but as you can well attest to, the NRA is slow to react to the changes in shooting styles.
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stephen Damron</div><div class="ubbcode-body">XTR, I can understand your fustration. They need a supressor class. One problem with the brake is not the noise, its the over pressure. It really bothers some people. If they are firing just a little after you they think that will cause them to flinch and pull the shot. I my self hate over pressure. when I am behind the gun it dosen't bother me. When I am just off the gun i can really feel it. Maybe some day they will set the fireing line up to accomidate for the brakes. but as you can well attest to, the NRA is slow to react to the changes in shooting styles. </div></div>
I understand why guys would want to come out and shoot F class, it's an opportunity to shoot with target pullers at 1000 yards, but what they miss because it may look a lot like tactical shooting, but it's not, it's an subset of sling and irons HP shooting, you also get guys who get bent because they can't feed from mags too.
As for suppressors. I'm going to predict that nobody currently shooting will ever see the NRA sanction a class that runs suppressors. It's just not there, and I don't see much likelihood of brakes either. Lining up a guy with something that blows back and sides next to a Palma shooter trying to hold position, it's not happening anytime soon. I know all the arguments for using gear to isolate the brake guys, but the rules as written now require the gear be behind your shoulder, there is just a whole raft of variables that just aren't acceptable when you are trying to make apples to apples matches where national records can be recorded.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stephen Damron</div><div class="ubbcode-body">XTR, I can understand your fustration. They need a supressor class. One problem with the brake is not the noise, its the over pressure. It really bothers some people. If they are firing just a little after you they think that will cause them to flinch and pull the shot. I my self hate over pressure. when I am behind the gun it dosen't bother me. When I am just off the gun i can really feel it. Maybe some day they will set the fireing line up to accomidate for the brakes. but as you can well attest to, the NRA is slow to react to the changes in shooting styles. </div></div>
I understand why guys would want to come out and shoot F class, it's an opportunity to shoot with target pullers at 1000 yards, but what they miss because it may look a lot like tactical shooting, but it's not, it's an subset of sling and irons HP shooting, you also get guys who get bent because they can't feed from mags too.
As for suppressors. I'm going to predict that nobody currently shooting will ever see the NRA sanction a class that runs suppressors. It's just not there, and I don't see much likelihood of brakes either. Lining up a guy with something that blows back and sides next to a Palma shooter trying to hold position, it's not happening anytime soon. I know all the arguments for using gear to isolate the brake guys, but the rules as written now require the gear be behind your shoulder, there is just a whole raft of variables that just aren't acceptable when you are trying to make apples to apples matches where national records can be recorded.
Re: Supressors
I do agree with the concept of shoot what you are going to shoot in the field. We have a match here once a month in the spring thru fall. You shoot what you want and any caliber 338 and below. 7 stations with 6-10 targets per station at different distances. Its timed and no sighters. Longest target is 1340. By the way, its not on the flat. You walk about a mile through the stations. This is a great tactical shoot. This is the only shoot I do. I wish the NRA would have a comp like this.
I do agree with the concept of shoot what you are going to shoot in the field. We have a match here once a month in the spring thru fall. You shoot what you want and any caliber 338 and below. 7 stations with 6-10 targets per station at different distances. Its timed and no sighters. Longest target is 1340. By the way, its not on the flat. You walk about a mile through the stations. This is a great tactical shoot. This is the only shoot I do. I wish the NRA would have a comp like this.
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">timelinex, when I bought the rifle that I use in F-TR (from the classifieds here) 2 yrs ago it had a 24" barrel and a brake, I screwed the brake off, put on a thread protector, and went out and shot. I wanted to shoot more than I wanted to shoot with a brake. Your priorities, your decisions.
As for the eliteism thing, that sucks. I've only ever seen that from a very few sling and irons guys toward F-class in general (at Camp Perry someone called us "the end of shooting as we know it") </div></div>
Hey I get what your saying. I agree that anyone that wants to do anything bad enough, they will make it happen. Heck if I wanted to do it bad enough, I could just buy a new rifle altogether with no brake. The point is, it discourages those that are 'casually interested'. There are alot more casually interested people in regards to anything rather than very interested people. For me its not worth breaking the seal on my brake and having to re-time it every time.
As far as the eltism thing, I couldn't believe it either! They were all nice guys, except when the topic of their view on rifles vs other views. It really isn't an argument whether brakes are effective are not, this has been a proven topic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">timelinex, when I bought the rifle that I use in F-TR (from the classifieds here) 2 yrs ago it had a 24" barrel and a brake, I screwed the brake off, put on a thread protector, and went out and shot. I wanted to shoot more than I wanted to shoot with a brake. Your priorities, your decisions.
As for the eliteism thing, that sucks. I've only ever seen that from a very few sling and irons guys toward F-class in general (at Camp Perry someone called us "the end of shooting as we know it") </div></div>
Hey I get what your saying. I agree that anyone that wants to do anything bad enough, they will make it happen. Heck if I wanted to do it bad enough, I could just buy a new rifle altogether with no brake. The point is, it discourages those that are 'casually interested'. There are alot more casually interested people in regards to anything rather than very interested people. For me its not worth breaking the seal on my brake and having to re-time it every time.
As far as the eltism thing, I couldn't believe it either! They were all nice guys, except when the topic of their view on rifles vs other views. It really isn't an argument whether brakes are effective are not, this has been a proven topic.
Re: Supressors
timelinex, don't know if your setup is the same, but I never had any problems timing my brake. Mine wasn't stock. I still have the brake and the barrel, it's a Badger on a Rock Creek tube. It was installed by a smith and there were no spacers or crush washers or anything like that.
timelinex, don't know if your setup is the same, but I never had any problems timing my brake. Mine wasn't stock. I still have the brake and the barrel, it's a Badger on a Rock Creek tube. It was installed by a smith and there were no spacers or crush washers or anything like that.
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll hold my tongue on the suppressor/F-TR issue, save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
Leaving muzzle brakes out of it for the moment, are you saying that the F Class matches in your area will not allow you to shoot a rifle with a suppressor at all?, even if you are shooting out of competition? (not for points)
I'm in CA and for the general population it's almost impossible to get approval for a suppressor. But the match director (an accomplished Palma/High Power shooter) at the 1000 yard range where I shoot High Power/F Class matches has been extremely accommodating of people with rifles with brakes. All he asks is that they let him know when they sign in so he can assign them a lane that will make for the least disruption to the sling and coat crowd. He even lets them have their own class - F Tactical (based on Vu's FPR) and they can shoot for awards within their class.
I will admit that a lot of the sling and coat people don't approve, and grumble about the brakes. But the MD is one of those who wants people to come shoot, and does his darnedest to provide a venue where they can do it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll hold my tongue on the suppressor/F-TR issue, save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
Leaving muzzle brakes out of it for the moment, are you saying that the F Class matches in your area will not allow you to shoot a rifle with a suppressor at all?, even if you are shooting out of competition? (not for points)
I'm in CA and for the general population it's almost impossible to get approval for a suppressor. But the match director (an accomplished Palma/High Power shooter) at the 1000 yard range where I shoot High Power/F Class matches has been extremely accommodating of people with rifles with brakes. All he asks is that they let him know when they sign in so he can assign them a lane that will make for the least disruption to the sling and coat crowd. He even lets them have their own class - F Tactical (based on Vu's FPR) and they can shoot for awards within their class.
I will admit that a lot of the sling and coat people don't approve, and grumble about the brakes. But the MD is one of those who wants people to come shoot, and does his darnedest to provide a venue where they can do it.
Re: Supressors
At some of the LR matches at Camp Pendleton, I have been right next to people shooting with brakes. They were allowed to shoot in the match, but not have their scores turned in for record. The braked .338 Lapua next to me on one occasion made it interesting (LOL). Although I don't recall seeing anyone do it, I can't imagine why someone with a can wouldn't be allowed to shoot at one of these matches off the record if individuals with brakes are allowed to do so.
At some of the LR matches at Camp Pendleton, I have been right next to people shooting with brakes. They were allowed to shoot in the match, but not have their scores turned in for record. The braked .338 Lapua next to me on one occasion made it interesting (LOL). Although I don't recall seeing anyone do it, I can't imagine why someone with a can wouldn't be allowed to shoot at one of these matches off the record if individuals with brakes are allowed to do so.
Re: Supressors
I would not want to argue the case for F Class Rules that it is an equipment issue.
If it was, why allow any specialized equipment....and I do mean specialized. Shooters have sleds, slings, coats and open sights with all kinds of modification. No one seems to object. What exactly is it about a suppressor that makes it illegal? I doubt that you will start winning a bunch of matches because you have one! the worst thing that happens is you have more shooters having more fun and less noise. Plus the same great shooters will keep on winning.
Gil Horsley
I would not want to argue the case for F Class Rules that it is an equipment issue.
If it was, why allow any specialized equipment....and I do mean specialized. Shooters have sleds, slings, coats and open sights with all kinds of modification. No one seems to object. What exactly is it about a suppressor that makes it illegal? I doubt that you will start winning a bunch of matches because you have one! the worst thing that happens is you have more shooters having more fun and less noise. Plus the same great shooters will keep on winning.
Gil Horsley
Re: Supressors
Gil
The High Power/F Class people I've talked with don't actually have any objection to suppressors, just muzzle brakes. Just making a guess, but I would imagine that the reason suppressors are not legal for NRA competition is because they are not legal to use/possess in all 50 states. Since the NRA rules have to be applicable to everyone, everywhere, it's not likely it will be changed.
But I can't for the life of me imagine a match director at a High Power/F Class event refusing to let someone shoot a suppressed rifle in a match if that person says they agree to shoot the course of fire as written, just not shoot it for points/awards.
Muzzle brakes are a whole 'nother issue. NRA prone matches tend to be a combination of sling and coat iron sight shooters, and F Class shooters. They shoot on different size targets and in most venues that I am familiar with it would be impractical to split them up onto separate relays, or spread them out far enough that those with muzzle brakes have no effect on the others.
That said, our MD allows muzzle brakes for our club matches and does what he can to minimize their impact on the others. And because he is such an accommodating guy and lets us shoot with them, our tactical rifle competition people with brakes bring things with them to act as barriers to do our part to minimize our impact on the other shooters.
Gil
The High Power/F Class people I've talked with don't actually have any objection to suppressors, just muzzle brakes. Just making a guess, but I would imagine that the reason suppressors are not legal for NRA competition is because they are not legal to use/possess in all 50 states. Since the NRA rules have to be applicable to everyone, everywhere, it's not likely it will be changed.
But I can't for the life of me imagine a match director at a High Power/F Class event refusing to let someone shoot a suppressed rifle in a match if that person says they agree to shoot the course of fire as written, just not shoot it for points/awards.
Muzzle brakes are a whole 'nother issue. NRA prone matches tend to be a combination of sling and coat iron sight shooters, and F Class shooters. They shoot on different size targets and in most venues that I am familiar with it would be impractical to split them up onto separate relays, or spread them out far enough that those with muzzle brakes have no effect on the others.
That said, our MD allows muzzle brakes for our club matches and does what he can to minimize their impact on the others. And because he is such an accommodating guy and lets us shoot with them, our tactical rifle competition people with brakes bring things with them to act as barriers to do our part to minimize our impact on the other shooters.
Re: Supressors
The November issue of Shooting Sports USA had a feature article concerning the use of suppressors in formal competition. So, I would say it is at least on the radar for the NRA, since it is their publication. In the article they compare suppressor use here in the US and in other places, such as Europe and New Zealand. Not likely to happen any time soon across the board here in the US due to legal restrictions and public viewpoint on suppressors, seems to be the conclusion of the article.
Here is the link if you want to read it (starts at page 22):
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201211/index.php
Or go to the homepage and hit the "click here to access the digital version" link to get the December issue. You can access the archives from the icons on top of the digital issue.
http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/shooting-sports-usa/
The November issue of Shooting Sports USA had a feature article concerning the use of suppressors in formal competition. So, I would say it is at least on the radar for the NRA, since it is their publication. In the article they compare suppressor use here in the US and in other places, such as Europe and New Zealand. Not likely to happen any time soon across the board here in the US due to legal restrictions and public viewpoint on suppressors, seems to be the conclusion of the article.
Here is the link if you want to read it (starts at page 22):
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201211/index.php
Or go to the homepage and hit the "click here to access the digital version" link to get the December issue. You can access the archives from the icons on top of the digital issue.
http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/shooting-sports-usa/
Re: Supressors
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pthfndr-CA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll hold my tongue on the suppressor/F-TR issue, save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
Leaving muzzle brakes out of it for the moment, are you saying that the F Class matches in your area will not allow you to shoot a rifle with a suppressor at all?, even if you are shooting out of competition? (not for points)
I'm in CA and for the general population it's almost impossible to get approval for a suppressor. But the match director (an accomplished Palma/High Power shooter) at the 1000 yard range where I shoot High Power/F Class matches has been extremely accommodating of people with rifles with brakes. All he asks is that they let him know when they sign in so he can assign them a lane that will make for the least disruption to the sling and coat crowd. He even lets them have their own class - F Tactical (based on Vu's FPR) and they can shoot for awards within their class.
I will admit that a lot of the sling and coat people don't approve, and grumble about the brakes. But the MD is one of those who wants people to come shoot, and does his darnedest to provide a venue where they can do it. </div></div>
Thats very nice of your MD. That would be great if they did that here. However I think our MD obviously doesn't have the same problems filling up the lanes... He told me the lanes are usually completely filled up. So maybe hes not as interested in getting as much interest as possible.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pthfndr-CA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll hold my tongue on the suppressor/F-TR issue, save to say that there are a lot of shooters...myself included...that would be on the line more often if they would allow it. </div></div>
Leaving muzzle brakes out of it for the moment, are you saying that the F Class matches in your area will not allow you to shoot a rifle with a suppressor at all?, even if you are shooting out of competition? (not for points)
I'm in CA and for the general population it's almost impossible to get approval for a suppressor. But the match director (an accomplished Palma/High Power shooter) at the 1000 yard range where I shoot High Power/F Class matches has been extremely accommodating of people with rifles with brakes. All he asks is that they let him know when they sign in so he can assign them a lane that will make for the least disruption to the sling and coat crowd. He even lets them have their own class - F Tactical (based on Vu's FPR) and they can shoot for awards within their class.
I will admit that a lot of the sling and coat people don't approve, and grumble about the brakes. But the MD is one of those who wants people to come shoot, and does his darnedest to provide a venue where they can do it. </div></div>
Thats very nice of your MD. That would be great if they did that here. However I think our MD obviously doesn't have the same problems filling up the lanes... He told me the lanes are usually completely filled up. So maybe hes not as interested in getting as much interest as possible.
Re: Supressors
We solved the problem.by running 2 matches. The first weekend is for the traditional FTR/Open/Prone shooters. The second weekend is Field Precision Rifle. That one allows brakes or suppressors. Awards are presented at both matches.
We solved the problem.by running 2 matches. The first weekend is for the traditional FTR/Open/Prone shooters. The second weekend is Field Precision Rifle. That one allows brakes or suppressors. Awards are presented at both matches.
Re: Supressors
Separate matches or relays seems to be the best way. As others have stated I believe its brakes not surpressors that most of the sling crowd object to. I can't imagine why an oldschool bullseye shooter would object to a quieter line! The original question was about surpressors and was answered as far as rulebook goes. Everyone should remember in these threads that the two devices are quite different and have seperate purposes. Although in some instances they overlap.
Separate matches or relays seems to be the best way. As others have stated I believe its brakes not surpressors that most of the sling crowd object to. I can't imagine why an oldschool bullseye shooter would object to a quieter line! The original question was about surpressors and was answered as far as rulebook goes. Everyone should remember in these threads that the two devices are quite different and have seperate purposes. Although in some instances they overlap.
It’s a safety issue. Even two pair of hearing protection isn’t enough to bring a high powered rifle down to safe levels.
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