Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

[glock24]

Quite a price difference I know, but I'd like to get some opinions on why I should consider going one way and not the other.

Obviously the Surgeon's integrated recoil lug and rail are very nice options, but is that the crux of what the extra expense gets me? Or is there more to it?

What about Surgeon's one-piece bolt? It is something I need to worry about not having?

Does the Surgeon use the original Remington style extractor? Their website discusses using standard Remington parts for the bolt, but I'm unclear about the extractor.

Regarding both actions, does either company do anything special with their firing pins, etc? (bushing, lock-time, etc)

Any input would be appreciated.

Thank you

 

[gliechty]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Look at the Surgeon RSR action. Then you have more an apples to apples comparison. And you still get the one piece bolt.

http://www.surgeonrifles.com/products/actions/?module=products&product_id=179

 

[glock24]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Thanks, but I kind of want an apples to oranges comparison. I'd like to understand if the apples to oranges price tag is worth considering.

 

[Dustin Morris]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

The surgeon has something like 30% more threads than a remington.
That is a whole lot more surface area thats holding the barrel!
If you like to read, pick up a copy of "Rifle Accuracy Facts" by Harold R. Vaughn.
Whoever designed the surgeon action basically went by this book.

 

[Dustin Morris]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Oh and surgeon generaly puts a sako extractor in their actions

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SevenBat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh and surgeon generaly puts a sako extractor in their actions </div></div>

The one I have here (model 591) has the standard remington extractor in it.

 

[Smokin]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

The integral 20MOA base and the recoil lug. Recoil lug is great for switching barrels.

 

[Dustin Morris]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

I have one with the remington and 2 with Sako's I believe.
I have been wrong before, well that one time

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, but I kind of want an apples to oranges comparison. I'd like to understand if the apples to oranges price tag is worth considering. </div></div>

Anytime you machine a complete receiver, 20 moa rail and recoil lug from one piece of solid billet, it's going to cost more. The bolt is also machined from one piece of billet CM with you choice of three bolt knobs and is fluted. It's a no brainer that the Surgeon would cost more, its simple economics

Add a $140.00 20moa rail to the Lawton 7000 and you’re at $1015.00. As I see the Lawton 7000 when I click on it the bolt isn’t fluted and the handle is of a simple swept back design. Add a bolt knob mod and fluting and you’ll be close to even.

You still have a two piece bolt.

Surgeon 591 $1,285.0
Lawton 7000 $1,015.00 (with 20moa rail)

Difference of $270.00

 

[glock24]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Understood gentlemen. Thank you.

And I did end up finding the specs for the Surgeon extractor . . . it is a standard Remington style.

As for the one-piece bolt, how likely is a brazed version to break off, assuming I'm not standing on it? I've never heard of this issue before. Just curious.

As for the math, I'm looking at the following;

Surgeon 591 = $1069 (Brownells C&R discount)
Lawton 7000 = $695 (includes rail, fluted bolt, and recoil lug, SH Group Buy)

That's a difference of over 300 bones, or basically a free barrel.

I'm still thinking . . .

 

[Mute]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

If it matters, I've broken the bolt handle on a stock Rem 700, so it does happen.

 

[glock24]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it matters, I've broken the bolt handle on a stock Rem 700, so it does happen. </div></div>

I'd like to hear the details if you don't mind.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

I used advertised prices from Lawtons and Surgeons web pages.

 

[glock24]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used advertised prices from Lawtons and Surgeons web pages. </div></div>

I know, no worries. That's what you should do, except this group buy has sweetened the deal a bit . . .

 

[skeetlee]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

It sounds like your trying to find a reason to buy the Lawton. Its a good action, and if you want one get it!!
I am very happy with my surgeon. I like my stiller better, but i do really like the surgeon. I have the round action, and the extractor is rem style. Thats one reason why i like the stiller better. The stiller also feels better to me, as far as the bolt throw is concerned. Stiller has some TAC 30's in stock at least last week he did. do not rule out the stiller!!! Can you tell, i kinda like my stiller!!! Lee

 

[Mute]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it matters, I've broken the bolt handle on a stock Rem 700, so it does happen. </div></div>

I'd like to hear the details if you don't mind. </div></div>

To make a long story short. Me climbing side of steep hill. Me being dumbass, trying to switch hands for leverage to keep from falling down said hill. Me holding on to rifle sling while loosing balance. Saved myself from tumbling but rifle went flying probably a good 30+ feet over vertical side of said hill to some rocks (more like boulder) at the bottom. End result, broken bolt handle, dented front objective on scope and busted glass on front objective, along with a host of other problems.

 

[glock24]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

To make a long story short. Me climbing side of steep hill. Me being dumbass, trying to switch hands for leverage to keep from falling down said hill. Me holding on to rifle sling while loosing balance. Saved myself from tumbling but rifle went flying probably a good 30+ feet over vertical side of said hill to some rocks (more like boulder) at the bottom. End result, broken bolt handle, dented front objective on scope and busted glass on front objective, along with a host of other problems. </div></div>

Oh man! What a disaster!

On a past hunting trip, I tripped over a log and flew forward only to find myself landing on my Sako which got hung up horizontally by two logs, one at the muzzle, and the other at the buttstock.

I busted the rifle's stock in half using a full body karate chop!

I feel your pain.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Although I am not familiar with the 7000, I can vouch for the quality of Lawton's stuff. The 8000 that I have is one of the smoothest, toughest chunks of metal I have ever felt.

At sub-700 bones, the 7000 is a great deal. I would say that you can not go wrong with that. You will get a great action from great people.

Have them spin you a barrel, put it all in a Mcree stock and you have an honest custom rifle for under 2 grand. That is hard to beat!

 

[USMCj]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

I would seriously consider the Surgeon RSR action. For a little more than the Lawton group buy price, you get the 1 piece bolt, double pinned recoil lug and double pinned scope base.

 

[orkan]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Just for the record, I think lawton uses a sako-style extractor and the bolt handle is welded on.

I'm not an expert on them, but I think those statements are accurate.

 

[BLAWTON]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Yes orkan you are correct. I am not trying to raise a big issue here but what is the big deal about a one piece bolt? Anyone who has ever tried to drill a hole that deep and keep it straight will know that its a very tough task. Our bolt are trued id to od then threaded, tourqued, drilled for extra weld penetration then heat treated. Then they go through another truing process and finished. We have be making and using them for over 4 years now and not had one bolt out of over 2000 ever have a problem.

Double pinned recoil lug: Does that extra pin really help? And if base is pinned too what does that help? I understand everyone wants all the rigidity they can get but does this stuff really help? Im not trying to bad mouth anyone here i would just like to know what the deal is about it?

Our bolts handles are micro tig welded on and have had good luck with very few that every broken off and they happened from situations like above. You can ask Later about the last one we built him. It got dropped off a 100 ft airplane hanger and the handle stayed on it.

 

[orkan]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Later told me about that story in the shoutbox.

Busted the shit out of just about everything else, but the action and barrel were nicked up... but not broken.

Hell of a thing.

 

[Blackhawk95]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Just got my Lawton in today. Im very pleased and will get an 8500 action when funds allow.

Jerid

 

[distantfoe]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Maybe not a consideration but Surgeon's raceways are edm'd and Lawton's are broach cut.

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: Surgeon SA versus Lawton 7000

Lawton's failure to ship and general phone BS to finally ship something outside what I had ordered a loooooog time after pushed me to Surgeon. At that point in time Stiller was swamped with a group buy and the added cost of the Surgeon was no big ill to move the build forward. Just one experience by one person.

I have no quams with a factory Rem rcvr or any of the others. My best shooter is on a Rem action (granted I'm way more versed in loading for it). I'd build off any of the four. I look more at availability and the head I get to talk to when there are questions or issues. Jerry and Preston were easy to talk to and very upfront on answering questions.
You could make a few calls with questions and see how they taste.

I have been long wanting to try the switch barrel concept but can't bring myself to f' with it once it's set up and running. clean.