Tactical Efficiency

[TalkingBush]

Sorry in advance for the long post. I realize my paragraph structure is off, but that is to trick your mind into reading small chunks and not steering away from this post. Run on sentences are a plenty too, but I think it's manageable to get the jist of my thread.

Recently, I attended the phenomenal Rifles Only PR1&2 Combo course. I can not praise it enough, however that is not my point this post, just felt I needed to throw another +1 in here, as the training was invaluable.

I had a stock 700P with minimal gear, as I'm from a military background, and usually go with the bare minimum, however, this is more of a case of lack of finances. Running through the course, taught me tons, but more importantly showed me the weakness of myself and my gear. I believe in having good gear, but not overdoing it with weight/unnecessary pouches etc... My problems related to my own lack of skill are being addressed, but my equipment lacking is where I need some advice.

Having a top loading weapon, and doing the running, moving, and many other drills was slowing me down greatly, as well as the instructors would have to stop for us to reload. I did not have a stockpack, ammo cards, ammo boxes, or anything fancy, basically because I wanted to see what would work best based on peer's gear. I was lugging around a small Pelican case with data book and a few boxes of rounds.

I have been doing nonstop research the past few weeks and have came to this conclusion, which I believe is correct, but want legitimate feedback for.

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">*NEW*</span></span> What are the advantages of a drag bag versus a 3-day assault pack/rifle cover/shooting mat? I have not tried it yet, but I believe the assault pack way would be more efficient since you can store your rifle and mat on it for quick access, instead of having to lay out your drag bag at the chance of things falling out and fumbling to find everything.

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">What I have discovered so far is my need for a better stock, that will add DBM capabilities, flush cups, and provide better support of a rear bag. </span> Addressed, bought a Manner's T4A

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">I had a Triad Rear bag, which is a great bag, but for lugging it around, is a no-go. I am thinking of the TAB bag, which is smaller more flexible for placing it under the bipod in alternate positions. I would like to have a flush cup either rigged, or preferably sewn into the bag, so it will be fixated to the rear/front of the rifle, opposite side of the sling, with a 3"-4" strap to allow movement under the stock, and not be left behind in a shoot and move situation. I am going to ask a few people for custom work, or find a small bag that supports this. </span> Addressed see this link

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">One other "minor," but huge change is a bolt knob, my thumb took a beating hitting the scope caps. </span>Addressed, bought an AZPrecision Varmint Hollow Knob, has fixed my issue and made bolt charging more with the extra leverage.

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">As far as a rig, I have a base Tactical Tailor rig setup for my carbine load, and the guys over at Lightfighter have me under control. </span>

In regard to ammo management, I believe a DBM, loaded AICS 5/10 round mags, ammo cards, and a light rig will address this issue, and then practicing mag changes/reloads. I have a Surgeon DBM on it's way, now it's a matter of testing it to see if it helps with practice.

I have a list of the items that I am very close to purchasing, but as many of us do, must research until my eyes bleed. So here it goes. On the left is what I have, on the right is what I will be upgrading to, with an explanation. Please, be harsh, but honest. I am looking to go with functionality over visual stimulation, and I surely don't mind saving a buck or two on the way, but don't want that losing quality in the gear.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Upgrades/Modifications</span>
Stock: Manners T4A Coyote Tan <span style="font-weight: bold">Purchased</span>
Stock Options:
*Surgeon DBM Inlet <span style="font-weight: bold">Purchased</span>
*700SA Inlet <span style="font-weight: bold">Purchased</span>
*Flushcups on Front - L/R, Back - L/R for strong and support hand slinging, attach rear bag via flushcup opposite sling. Review Here <span style="font-weight: bold">Purchased</span>
*Picatinny rail for Atlas Bipod <span style="font-weight: bold">Purchased</span>
Bolt knob: Stock 700 -> AZPrecision Hollow Varmint <span style="font-weight: bold">Purchased</span>
DBM: 700 Top loader -> Surgeon DBM w/AICS 5/10rd mags
Sling: TAB Gear Talon - TAB Gear Flushcups
Bipod: 6"-9" Harris Notched, Swiveled -> Atlas w/Throw Lever

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

Dont know how you feel about the AICS, it's a love/hate thing, but you can often find one here on the hide for sale. You bolt it directly on and you have a good stock with a mag system and no inletting or gunsmith type work. When you run the total # , usually an acis is cheaper than buying a stock ,and bottom metal.Plus if the stock isn't inletted, then it has to go to the smith.Also no requirements for bedding.
I run an A-5 a Manners and an AICS so I could be talking out both sides of my mouth.

Keep an eye on the for sale section. The very thing you can't live without is often someone elses junk.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

Honestly, I would suggest you make some minor changes like the bag and some ammo wallets or cards and then get some more gun time before you start changing the weapon.

If you are doing informal LR shooting, then a DBM really isn't needed. If you shoot competitions, then the type of comp will determine if a DBM will benefit you or not.

I have run stock bolt knobs for a long time. I am a firm believer that running the stock knob is just a matter of technique. After coming back from Sniperweek I took a look at my equipment and techniques. The "challenge" required speed and smoothness on most stages. Many teams don't get all their shots off. At no point did I feel my bolt knob limited me, and I never pinched it on the scope. I use a bit different technique than you see a lot of guys using and I find it to be smoother and less disruptive than the "grip it and rip it" that most use.

If you take a look at this video you can see the technique I use.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/azCRVyMs2dI&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/azCRVyMs2dI&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Now I have looked at a larger bolt knob for a "fun" rifle just to try it out, but not to "fix" a problem.

My view has always been skill over equipment. Most of us have an underlying desire to modify things for the sake of modifying. Sometimes we need to resist that desire and focus on becoming better shooters.

If you have ever get the chance to attend a gathering of professionals like I witnessed at Sniperweek you will see how fast, smooth and accurate factory "stock" rifles can be when all the time and money is put into developing the shooter.

 

[Graham]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

LoneWolf, very well said. I agree.

DBM is nice, but not always necessary as a modification when you consider the added expense. A detachable magazine is a convenient option, but given the expense of the upgrade keep in mind that a magazine is only really necessary once in a while, in one or maybe two stages out of any large match. I have seen some shooters become very fast without one. If I was ordering a custom rifle I would order it with DBM, but if I was modifying an existing rifle I would first comapre the cost of the modification versus a new and different rifle [note that an AE Mk II would address most of your issues].

If you carry a knapsack with you on the stages the size and bulk of your rear bag won't matter.

Nor will whether you also carry your rounds in the pack neatly tucked into looped nylon 'ammo management systems' worth $20 each. There's nothing wrong with doing that. But I still just throw my ammo in my pack.

If you need to move with the rear bag put the sling through the bag strap. If you are doing run-and-gun you won't need to take the bag with you, and you might not have the time or opportunity to use it anyway. Remember, the smaller the rear bag the less elevation it will give you and therefore the less versatile it will be. If you are talking about the TAB bag I am thinking of, the one that I have, Tony's small bag is meant to compliment a larger one not to replace it. I throw that in my knpasack, too.

The important thing about an extended bolt knob is not to have it too big: it should not interfere with your finger when in proper firing position on the trigger. That can be difficult to engineer with the big hands, or long fingers, that some feel make an extended bolt knob necessary on the A2/3 T2/4's in the first place.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

I think the only place a DBM is really an advantage is during a mover run, and then not much - I did fine on movers starting with 5 rounds in the rifle, then single-loading from loose rounds on the ground.

Some matches ago at Rifles Only, we ran an extended run-and-gun on the obstacle course in the north pasture. The average score on that evolution was less than 20 percent.

I ran it the day after the match with a 5-round toploader and a pocketfull of loose rounds. I shot 65 percent on the stage.

And I don't shoot with a rear bag. I shoot with nomex flight crew gloves on, and I wrap my hand around the rear of the sling on my toploaders and around the monopod on my AI. Nothing to pick up when it's time to move.

Don't have any extended bolt knobs, either.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Successful application of the precision rifle is a lot more about thinking than shooting. -- Jacob Bynum, Rifles Only</div></div>

It's easy to get wrapped up in the gear race, and forget the importance of the fundamentals.

 

[TalkingBush]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

I have recently ditched my Triad bag, and have yet to order a new bag. In light of your post referring to using the sling to adjust for elevation, I have done that a few times, and think I will continue to do so instead of getting another lighter bag.

Bolt knob, I think is a matter of incorrectly charging the action, just the rip it then shove it with thumb and first fingers. I need to just ditch that and go with a more gentle approach. Also, wearing gloves would remove the entire thumb cut and finger cuts from loading rounds. My question on gloves is, do I need to cut out the first finger so I can feel the trigger? Not trying to be tacticool, just want the most efficient way, without buying a bunch of gear.

I am wholeheartedly against buying extra gear, but I'll admit, most of that is something to do regarding the sport, when not being able to make it to the range. My assault pack for the entire weeks course had 5-6 things total and worked out well except for the ammo issue.

I think a lot of my ammo issue isn't about cool gear, it's more of mental organization, knowing something is the same place every time and not fumbling around looking for things, or make-shifting gear. Running from shoothouse to cross to bus was more about wear are my next rounds, pocket, jacket, etc.. than it was about getting into the correct most stable position, and it definitely showed.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you take a look at this video you can see the technique I use.

</div></div>

Hey lonewolf- Eye pro!

Nice vid..

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Honestly, I would suggest you make some minor changes like the bag and some ammo wallets or cards and then get some more gun time before you start changing the weapon.

If you are doing informal LR shooting, then a DBM really isn't needed. If you shoot competitions, then the type of comp will determine if a DBM will benefit you or not.

I have run stock bolt knobs for a long time. I am a firm believer that running the stock knob is just a matter of technique. After coming back from Sniperweek I took a look at my equipment and techniques. The "challenge" required speed and smoothness on most stages. Many teams don't get all their shots off. At no point did I feel my bolt knob limited me, and I never pinched it on the scope. I use a bit different technique than you see a lot of guys using and I find it to be smoother and less disruptive than the "grip it and rip it" that most use.

If you take a look at this video you can see the technique I use.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/azCRVyMs2dI&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/azCRVyMs2dI&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Now I have looked at a larger bolt knob for a "fun" rifle just to try it out, but not to "fix" a problem.

My view has always been skill over equipment. Most of us have an underlying desire to modify things for the sake of modifying. Sometimes we need to resist that desire and focus on becoming better shooters.

If you have ever get the chance to attend a gathering of professionals like I witnessed at Sniperweek you will see how fast, smooth and accurate factory "stock" rifles can be when all the time and money is put into developing the shooter. </div></div>
Wow. They say a picture is worth a thousand words...that video is worth a million.
Thanks LW

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey lonewolf- Eye pro!

Nice vid.. </div></div>

I wear it when it's warranted. I shot rifles for a long time in the Corps without eye pro. I still don't like shooting glasses when I am on optics. It's a personal preference.

When I am doing load development or running and gunning I always wear eye pro.

 

[TalkingBush]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

I'm also curious in how to lighten the rifle, without hindering it's quality, any small or major changes work. The reason I am asking is the Manner's DBM chassis on T4A requires no bedding. Not knowing much about the bedding process, I am worried that without bedding to pad the action into, it would be metal on metal contact and create friction/rattle/slight changes in seating. I could be delusional, but just curious, is this correct? The action will never leave the stock, only a barrel change would be in it's future as well as truing the action.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

Your rifle currently has an aluminum bedding block. The action is bolted directly to the aluminum block with action screws.

The action should be torqued down to approx 65 in/lbs. If so, it will not rattle.

The action should be removed from the stock periodically for maintenance and trigger cleaning.

With an aluminum bedding block you can still "skim bed" the stock with an epoxy compound. When done correctly, the action can still be removed from the stock when needed.

Additionally if you torque the action correctly, mark the action screws and allow the action to wear into the stock it may perfectly return to zero after removing and replacing.

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

<span style="font-size: 8pt"><span style="font-style: italic">Tag</span></span>

 

[Supersubes]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

From reading your post and the replies, an AICS would solve all of your problems but weight. Feature for feature, an AICS 1.5 would save you hundreds over a loaded Manners or MCM. They are repeatable, and reliable. I never worry about bedding. I have taken my actions out of AICS's many times, they always return to zero. I recently took my short 700 out of a bedded A3 and dropped it into a 2.0 with no change of zero, and I don't use a torque wrench. This is not the first rifle I have done this to. There is a definate improvement in the way an AICS recoils over a Manners ot MCM, and it isn't just weight.

Regarding the bag, what is it about the triad that didn't work? Some people forego the bag all together, it cant be that big of an issue. The TAB bag has a bounce to it that I can't get over, and it isn't that much smaller than a triad. My triad is about perfect IMO.

I also have a preferance for AI hooks over flush cups. I never doubt them...with flush cups, not so much. I've dropped a gun or two using the cups.

 

[TalkingBush]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

I have handled an AICS, and yes they are feature wise nice, I just feel they are too "bulky." Maybe I'm being an elitist and not wanting to conform to the AICS, but I just didn't like it that much. I'll not count it out, and will continue to test before I have made up my mind. I like the idea of modularity in most cases, but from an uneducated standpoint, I feel like bedding an action to the stock makes it more of a complete system, as opposed to a drop-in.

As far as the bag, it was a great bag, I think it was just a little big, when attaching to the bipod to shoot kneeling over an obstacle. It was cumbersome when going from a fixed prone position to running into a pipe and taking an unsupported shot.

I actually just discovered the Surgeon DBM and it appears far superior to the Badger, as mag changes seem much smoother.

 

[Supersubes]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

Thats the thing, if an unbedded AICS will shoot with a bedded fiberglass stock day in and day out, maybe you need to drop the elitist part. IMO, the AICS is bare bones, and not elitist at all. It is heavy, I'll give you that, but it is a spectacular field stock. It's about hitting the target, not "feelings" about the equipment. Your minimalist approach is a good thing IMO. If you weren't wanting for additional accuracy with your current setup, maybe a simple inlet change and DBM bottom metal will solve your issues.

Is the TAB bag really that much smaller? Maybe a few cubic inches? If your gonna make the bag slide along your sling so you can put it anywhere you want, is it really gonna matter?

I have been using the AICS/Badger release for a while now. I like the fact that it drops the mag in my hand because regardless of how fast I may move, the mags still get stowed before the movement. The time gets burned in the shot setup, not the mag change. I'm not a big match shooter, but PR mag changes are nothing like combat pistol changes.

Maybe your fine, and your looking for a solution to a non-existent problem? Re-reading your post, the thing that sticks out is you not liking the stock. No surprise, the 700 P stock is a POS IMO.

 

[TalkingBush]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

I do agree with looking for a solution to minimal problems, part of it is just the bigger/better side of human nature, and then there is the fact that some changes would ease training and real situations. I'll take note into the AICS, but don't want to turn this thread into an AICS vs McM war.

As far as the time getting burned during shot setup, I agree completely, and that's why I am edging towards a DBM. Grabbing rounds from a pocket/cheekpiece is frustrating and will likely ruin your NPA and cheekweld. The 700P stock is ok, but I do want something more. It performs with the stock barrel, well enough, hitting minute of man at 1k, but in the future there is plenty of room for upgrade, but that's not a huge ordeal right now, a Bartlein 20"-22" will solve that.

As far as bags, I sold my Triad, and have not purchased anything so far, because I am going to stick with Lindy's principle and try without, using just the sling.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TalkingBush</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grabbing rounds from a pocket/cheekpiece is frustrating and will likely ruin your NPA and cheekweld. The 700P stock is ok, but I do want something more. It performs with the stock barrel, well enough, hitting minute of man at 1k, but in the future there is plenty of room for upgrade, but that's not a huge ordeal right now, a Bartlein 20"-22" will solve that.</div></div>

A couple of misconceptions here.

First, training will solve the NPA/Cheekweld issue. Train to keep your cheekweld during loading, press check and all other manipulations that don't specifically require you to look at a number. If you can do it tactilely, then do it on the scope.

Second, what kind of grievous accuracy do you think a replacement barrel will solve? If your rifle is mechanically sound and you hand it to an expert marksman I think you may find out some interesting facts about factory accuracy.

Third, as the male half of our species we tend to look for hardware solutions to software problems. This is because it's painful to our ego's to admit that WE are the limiting factor on the quality of our performance 99% of the time. It's much easier to say "if I had that x-29 trigger, I wouldn't have missed that last shot" than "if I spent more time dry firing than catalog shopping I might have not ganked the trigger on that last one." It's nothing to be embarrassed about. It just needs to be understood and combated.

I find myself fighting the urge all the time. I like shiny shit that costs money. I have to tell myself all the time that money spent on the ground burning powder with the rig I have will make me a hell of a lot better shooter than bolting on the new widget.

You have a solid rig. Burn the barrel out. When you hit 10K, upgrade it.

If you need to feed the "Upgrade Demons" buy glass. If you can't see it, you can't kill it.

 

[TalkingBush]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

This is exactly what I wanted to hear, subconsciously. When it's all said and done, training more will remove a lot of the problems I have ran into. I have been training both live and dry, to dryfire, load 4+1, and then live fire all with the same cheekweld, and have gotten it down pretty consistently. Not that that's a huge accomplishment, but it's better than most can say/do. I do not deny that I am going to be saving up for the bigger/better, but I am going to postpone going through with the purchase once I have trained more and have a better understanding for my flaws and work them out by training. I like removing equipment and would prefer being able to outdo someone with the super expensive rifle, on my stock one. I will continue to research equipment, but more importantly spend money on actual training. I plan to go to R/O PR3+4 whenever they offer it next, so I'm on track there. My glass is in need of an overhaul, while it is a good optic, it's nowhere near a USO/Premier. It's a SWFA SS 3-9x FFP. It does have all the functions, minus the magnification and GenII Mildot that would assist in the future.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

I agree and disagree to a certain extent on the bolt knob portion of this topic.

I worked with a stock 700 bolt knob for years and was very proficient and fast with it. I felt like an enlarged knob was a crutch for weaker shooters. At one of the matches several shooters convinced me to put one on a rifle I was about to have built. They insisted I would be faster... They were right. The enlarged bolt knob is easier to manipulate and is faster.

 

[TalkingBush]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

Bumping this thread, as I have went through with some of the changes discussed and wanted further input regarding certain gear setups and the current rifle setup. I crossed out the old questions that have been addressed to see where I was coming from.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

The only thing I liked about a drag bag was the protection it gives the weapon during rough transit. Other than that layering your kit via pack, chest rig and pistol belt makes life much easier. A pack allows the user to utilize it as a shooting aid. I use THE Pack by Spec Ops with an internal frame. Using the pack will allow me support from a variety of prone positions, seated and low kneeling. Inside my pack carries a TAB Gear shooting mat. The TAB mat is very low profile and tactically functional. In a pinch I can stuff the mat in my pack in a matter of seconds and move if necessary. Many drag bags are bulky and difficult to move in a pinch.

 

[TalkingBush]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

That's exactly what I was thinking. I usually attach my TAB Mat to the side of my assault pack. Right now, I'm using an ATS RAID I, but plan to upgrade to a RAID II, or a Kifaru Marauder for the sake of wear and tear, and the 3DAP is ACU, and all of my other gear is MC. I also usually attach my rifle via the TAB Rifle Cover to the top of my 3DAP giving it's not narrow terrain, or I'll sling it to the front/back, if it's heavily wooded. I also like being able to not use the TAB Mat for when a quick shot is needed and I don't have to lay a mat and put my fingernail paint on.

 

[R.Walters]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

this is the best thread i have seen in a while, i have a drag bag shooting mat backpack combo and feel like it is a pretty good set up. if you want to try it out ill send it to you if you cover shipping. pm me if you wanna try it out. I also love my tab shooting mat, very small and compact.

 

[TalkingBush]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KnabstrupperUSA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this is the best thread i have seen in a while, i have a drag bag shooting mat backpack combo and feel like it is a pretty good set up. if you want to try it out ill send it to you if you cover shipping. pm me if you wanna try it out. I also love my tab shooting mat, very small and compact. </div></div>Very generous offer, but no thanks I've got a few people I know that are local with drag bags and may borrow theirs if need be. You could post pictures, as that would more or less get the point across regarding your setup.

 

[R.Walters]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

Its a Galati Deluxe Mat. Nothing special, just thought it might help you in making a decision.

 

[TalkingBush]

Re: Tactical Efficiency

LoneWolfUSMC, with addition of a slightly bigger bolt knob, I have naturally adopted your way of cycling the bolt. I'm sure if I transition back to the stock knob, it would feel more natural now.