Teacher Fired for Requiring Student to Stand During Pledge

[bogeybrown]

https://heatst.com/life/illinois-te...t-who-wouldnt-stand-for-pledge-of-allegiance/

The teacher is a friend of ours up in Chicagostan. Apparently during the incident he said something along the lines of 'if you're unwilling to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, then you're not welcome to ride in my Drivers Ed car. There are 6 cars available, but you won't be riding in mine' That's obviously a paraphrase. Anectodaly from other teachers, said student has had at least one other incident where he railed on about how he hated this country etc.

My response was "of course, fuck this country for giving you a free education". With all the stroke that the Teachers Union has up here, these incidents floor me. You can be an illiterate piece of shit and earn a six figure salary as a teacher up here, but dare to take a stand like this and you're out the door in a heartbeat. Fuck us as a nation if we've come to this.

Apparently the petition to reinstate has some decent traction, and we're hoping Vince gets made whole.

 

[NY700]

Reading that article the teacher should have been reprimanded. Fired, maybe not but I'm not able to see the rest of his employment file.

He forgot that he is a teacher. If a child refused to stand for the pledge you don't yell at the child you ask questions. Why aren't you standing? Do you know what this means? Do you know why we do it?

For all we know the teenage kid lost his parent to war maybe fighting for our country and they are angry or confused. Maybe this becomes a good opportunity for the one teacher to talk to the social studies or civics teacher and it becomes a teachable moment.

I hope the guy gets his job back. I also hope he learns something. At the end of the day a TEACHER should know that is not how to interact and attempt to educate a teenager


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Maggot]

Reading that article the teacher should have been reprimanded. Fired, maybe not but I'm not able to see the rest of his employment file.

He forgot that he is a teacher. If a child refused to stand for the pledge you don't yell at the child you ask questions. Why aren't you standing? Do you know what this means? Do you know why we do it?

For all we know the teenage kid lost his parent to war maybe fighting for our country and they are angry or confused. Maybe this becomes a good opportunity for the one teacher to talk to the social studies or civics teacher and it becomes a teachable moment.

I hope the guy gets his job back. I also hope he learns something. At the end of the day a TEACHER should know that is not how to interact and attempt to educate a teenager


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

thats excellent insight. While the kid may be an assshole, there are right and wrong ways to deal with things. The teacher had been warned.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Right now it's the time of year when students in 9th and 10th grades are deciding on whether to pursue college track (and what 'direction... arts, STEM, etc). Or decide that they want to pursue a trade in which case they would spend part of their time at the local (and phenomenal, I might add) tech program in a dedicated school next town over. In that program, they can pursue forestry, chef, HVAC, Automotive, Nursing, agriculture/dairy, Carpentry/homebuilding, etc... The school offers really first rate programs where kids are apprenticed and combine classroom with real world experience. IMHO one of the best 'tech' trade programs I've ever seen. And lots of them 'do' go on to college in Nursing, automotive, mechanical engineering, etc. IMHO much better preparation for the world than reading Beowolf.

Until, of course, this past week, one of the teachers in our local "snobby" high school (and my alma mater) stood up in front of the class and announced that "Only stupid kids go to Tech."

I want the teacher fired. And I mean fired. And I mean run out of town. I am just furious!

But nothing will happen. Teachers union. And I am sure all the little art history fruitbats believe it, too.

You can't make this %$#@ up! A hard rain is a-gonna fall if this crap keeps happening.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[supercorndogs]

Right now it's the time of year when students in 9th and 10th grades are deciding on whether to pursue college track (and what 'direction... arts, STEM, etc). Or decide that they want to pursue a trade in which case they would spend part of their time at the local (and phenomenal, I might add) tech program in a dedicated school next town over. In that program, they can pursue forestry, chef, HVAC, Automotive, Nursing, agriculture/dairy, Carpentry/homebuilding, etc... The school offers really first rate programs where kids are apprenticed and combine classroom with real world experience. IMHO one of the best 'tech' trade programs I've ever seen. And lots of them 'do' go on to college in Nursing, automotive, mechanical engineering, etc. IMHO much better preparation for the world than reading Beowolf.

Until, of course, this past week, one of the teachers in our local "snobby" high school (and my alma mater) stood up in front of the class and announced that "Only stupid kids go to Tech."

I want the teacher fired. And I mean fired. And I mean run out of town. I am just furious!

But nothing will happen. Teachers union. And I am sure all the little art history fruitbats believe it, too.

You can't make this %$#@ up! A hard rain is a-gonna fall if this crap keeps happening.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Its sad, I met a lot of real numb skulls at tech school. I know a lot of "smart" people with 100k in their education that can't find jobs. My mom gets mad all the time, she is a special ed teacher. There are teachers at her school, real stupid K-Staters. You have to go to K-state or you are stupid kind of people. She has watched these idiots convince several students to go waste a bunch of money there and fail out after a year or two. Tech schools are great and cheap. I went, worked hard, graduated number one in my class, had a good job, and paid off my loans. Unfortunately after spending most of my life thinking I am the incredible hulk, and working hard physical jobs; my L4-L5 disc decided I needed a career change.

These liberal indoctrination centers convince the feeblest of minds they are the best this country has to offer, and charge us a "democrat tax" for higher paying jobs. It's no small wonder they hate tech.

 

[oneshot86]

get your kids in the trades, and i mean educate them formally for the good bucks...dont get them job with half way bob, they wont amount to shit, like halfway bob...
i know here we have a community college that does the trades and it is an education that the kids come out with a respectable trade with good knowledge...
hence a good, in demand, high paying job

 

[APintOfGuinnessPlease!]

Right now it's the time of year when students in 9th and 10th grades are deciding on whether to pursue college track (and what 'direction... arts, STEM, etc). Or decide that they want to pursue a trade in which case they would spend part of their time at the local (and phenomenal, I might add) tech program in a dedicated school next town over. In that program, they can pursue forestry, chef, HVAC, Automotive, Nursing, agriculture/dairy, Carpentry/homebuilding, etc... The school offers really first rate programs where kids are apprenticed and combine classroom with real world experience. IMHO one of the best 'tech' trade programs I've ever seen. And lots of them 'do' go on to college in Nursing, automotive, mechanical engineering, etc. IMHO much better preparation for the world than reading Beowolf.

Until, of course, this past week, one of the teachers in our local "snobby" high school (and my alma mater) stood up in front of the class and announced that "Only stupid kids go to Tech."

I want the teacher fired. And I mean fired. And I mean run out of town. I am just furious!

But nothing will happen. Teachers union. And I am sure all the little art history fruitbats believe it, too.

You can't make this %$#@ up! A hard rain is a-gonna fall if this crap keeps happening.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Not disagreeing with the premise but your tone is not that far from the teacher you talk about. Why can't someone who goes to tech college be into the arts or have something like that as part of their education?

The difference between education and training is the former used to aim for a well-rounded individual with grounding in arts, languages, history and earth sciences and math. A solid baseline and broad enough exposure so that preferences and capabilities could be identified and choice made with confidence.

Training is learning to perform specific tasks and isn't something in anyway limited to 'the trades' but it's vocational, not necessarily education. You can be an uneducated, ignorant as fuck CPA or lawyer for instance.

Beowolf is a great fucking read and I like Seamus Heaney's translation.

 

[vh20]

Well, I'm not a lawyer, but that's the first time I've ever heard someone with 7-8 years of college, including a "well-rounded" undergraduate degree, plus graduate/professional (law) school, called "uneducated." Geez.

 

[APintOfGuinnessPlease!]

Respectfully, and I don't feel controversially or with any originality, an undergraduate degree nowadays varies enormously in its ability to challenge, engage and educate students. As a graduate I can tell you my education nose dived once I left school and attended university. Then again, I chose to study something as dismal as economics.

 

[vh20]

Still not tracking. Classes required in a pre-law prerequisite program are all the ones you stated in your description of what an education is. Now, if you want to change that argument to the idea that the quality of those classes in college today has fallen and standards are poor, then that's quite another thing.

...And to add, if you want to make the argument that there are a lot of people educated far beyond their intelligence, then I'd certainly agree.

 

[Maggot]

Not disagreeing with the premise but your tone is not that far from the teacher you talk about. Why can't someone who goes to tech college be into the arts or have something like that as part of their education?

The difference between education and training is the former used to aim for a well-rounded individual with grounding in arts, languages, history and earth sciences and math. A solid baseline and broad enough exposure so that preferences and capabilities could be identified and choice made with confidence.

Training is learning to perform specific tasks and isn't something in anyway limited to 'the trades' but it's vocational, not necessarily education. You can be an uneducated, ignorant as fuck CPA or lawyer for instance.

Beowolf is a great fucking read and I like Seamus Heaney's translation.

You want a real read, try the Francis Edgerton, Harvard University Press translation of the Bhagavad Gita. Available on line but Id recommend the actual book.

 

[APintOfGuinnessPlease!]

Still not tracking. Classes required in a pre-law prerequisite program are all the ones you stated in your description of what an education is. Now, if you want to change that argument to the idea that the quality of those classes in college today has fallen and standards are poor, then that's quite another thing.

I'm not suggesting there's an elitism aspect of education. Rather I see education as a universally available asset wherein it's not about exams and grade but knowledge and consciousness raised through learning rather than vocational training progression.

A welder should have no impediment assumed upon him from holding an authoritative view of Shakespeare's Sonnets. That knowledge is available in almost every library and online now for free.

I guess what I'm saying is an educational isn't a snobby, liberal arts thing for the dreaded skinny jean brigade.

 

[vh20]

That seems, to me at least, a much better way of putting it.

 

[APintOfGuinnessPlease!]

I've been nose deep in birthday party and on my 3rd double bourbon. I'd say I'm going to need at least two runs at everything tonight.

 

[vh20]

Color (colour, for you) me jealous. I'm on post-op antibiotics since Monday that are strictly anti-alcohol. I've got two more days to go, and another three after that before I can partake. I've got a cabinet full of fine bourbons calling to me every night and can't even enjoy so much as a cold beer until Thursday.

 

[APintOfGuinnessPlease!]

Sickness and work are the greatest barriers to more booze and cigars being enjoyed.

Get well soon.

 

[JSTARSZ]

Not to get too far from the original theme of this thread - higher education has become a huge business money making scheme. Pick any particular large university around you and the one thing you will see is they are gobbling up all kinds of real estate around their campuses. They have too much money and they have to do something to spend it. I live near the University of Virginia and just a year ago there were discussions of their 2 Billion dollar fund - yep that's right 2 Billion. How does a University get 2 Billion dollars? And, by the way, UVA is a state university, not private.

 

[Maggot]

I'm not suggesting there's an elitism aspect of education. Rather I see education as a universally available asset wherein it's not about exams and grade but knowledge and consciousness raised through learning rather than vocational training progression.

A welder should have no impediment assumed upon him from holding an authoritative view of Shakespeare's Sonnets. That knowledge is available in almost every library and online now for free.

I guess what I'm saying is an educational isn't a snobby, liberal arts thing for the dreaded skinny jean brigade.

I agree with this statement, with one caveat. Jefferson said "Knowledge is power."

During my time at UVA I made my self omewhat un popular by saying (this is original) "Knowledge may be power but power wiihout wisdom is folly."

You can have ll the education in the world, have all the knowledge, but if you cannot employ it in a creative, constructive, manner its worth nothing. Unfortunately thats the state the world is in now. We have all this 'knowledge' but no wisdom and thats wy the country and the world are so fucked up right now. A lack of the fundamental wisdom that synthesizes that knowledge into understanding.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

And don't get me wrong, I am all for an arts education... For some it is the right thing. I'm, in fact, for education in general. I am also a fan of the Atlas Shrugged concept that every contributor is valuable in their own way and should become as expert and educated as possible in that field. Just because you pursue a trade versus a supposedly 'cerebral' pursuit does not make you less than the supposed Ivory Tower elite.

To me, a chimney built by a master stone mason is a far greater piece of artwork and a demonstration of skill than a piece of canvas with colors splayed around it.

After all, which one took years of training and skill to produce?

Yet which one hangs in an art gallery in Soho... and which has stood (and will stand) for hundreds of years?

I don't deny people their due if they are going to pursue the most arcane liberal arts degree as long as they pursue it with gusto and become the best at whatever they do after they get the education. But to say that someone getting educated in order to work with their hands is somehow 'stupid' is (especially coming from a teacher) IMHO a firing offense. A good percentage of the kids in that class were treated with total disdain.

And on that same vein, I ask, what would have happened to the teacher who said "All kids in special ed are stupid." Or "All kids who don't speak English are stupid." Or "All kids from poor neighborhoods are stupid." The outrage would be massive. But it's apparently ok for a self-styled intellectual elite (who should be teaching kids, not selecting them for some kind of Alduous Huxley epsilon-semi-moron status) to decide what equals smart vs. stupid.

Good points above though. Interesting discussion and sorry for hijacking thread. It just annoys me when a teacher gets fired for patriotism, but not for practicing educational eugenics.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Oh and that's a trick picture question above. The painting was done by Koko the Gorilla. It is called "Pink Pink Stink Nice Drink." Not sure if named by the Gorilla herself. And it does hang in some art museum where it is worshipped by... the educated... I guess. And for just $350 you can have a limited edition (of 3,000) print of it in your home. But only if you aren't stupid, I suppose.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[JMGlasgow]

 

[Maggot]

And don't get me wrong, I am all for an arts education... For some it is the right thing. I'm, in fact, for education in general. I am also a fan of the Atlas Shrugged concept that every contributor is valuable in their own way and should become as expert and educated as possible in that field. Just because you pursue a trade versus a supposedly 'cerebral' pursuit does not make you less than the supposed Ivory Tower elite.

To me, a chimney built by a master stone mason is a far greater piece of artwork and a demonstration of skill than a piece of canvas with colors splayed around it.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/www.koko.org\/sites\/default\/files\/root\/images\/store\/art\/pink2.jpg"}[/IMG2]
After all, which one took years of training and skill to produce?

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/www.gogirlfriend.com\/files\/2016_images\/17-lobby%20fireplace.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Yet which one hangs in an art gallery in Soho... and which has stood (and will stand) for hundreds of years?

I don't deny people their due if they are going to pursue the most arcane liberal arts degree as long as they pursue it with gusto and become the best at whatever they do after they get the education. But to say that someone getting educated in order to work with their hands is somehow 'stupid' is (especially coming from a teacher) IMHO a firing offense. A good percentage of the kids in that class were treated with total disdain.

And on that same vein, I ask, what would have happened to the teacher who said "All kids in special ed are stupid." Or "All kids who don't speak English are stupid." Or "All kids from poor neighborhoods are stupid." The outrage would be massive. But it's apparently ok for a self-styled intellectual elite (who should be teaching kids, not selecting them for some kind of Alduous Huxley epsilon-semi-moron status) to decide what equals smart vs. stupid.

Good points above though. Interesting discussion and sorry for hijacking thread. It just annoys me when a teacher gets fired for patriotism, but not for practicing educational eugenics.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Being a journeyman if not master stonemason Id like to run with that, LOL, but I See ta both have value. One has intrinsic value that will heat yourhome. the other has a value less quantifiable but wll enlighten your mind/spiri/ Both are important. Survival of the body has little reward without te appreciation of th spirit.

An I like the painting. It shows originality and free spirit

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Being a journeyman if not master stonemason Id like to run with that, LOL, but I See ta both have value. One has intrinsic value that will heat yourhome. the other has a value less quantifiable but wll enlighten your mind/spiri/ Both are important. Survival of the body has little reward without te appreciation of th spirit.

An I like the painting. It shows originality and free spirit

I think the painting also shows a sort of trusting simplicity... sort of like something done by a being who is very well cared-for and always the center of attention. Who has adoring fans and doesn't have to worry about the 'difficult' things in life like rent or where the next meal is coming from. An almost child-like innocence... masked by an outward and obvious physical presence that makes the artist unable to truly integrate with the society that revers her.... Yes, I think I can see that!

Huh.... Maybe it WAS painted by a millenial snowflake?

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Rthur]

This is an old argument concerning the importance of "academia vs industry".
Neither can exist without the other to some degree.
Many in these forums are industrial by nature and have accrued philosophical acumen through experience/age.
The lesser represented Academia have accrued industrial acumen through experience/age.
Our society has been lead to believe that only one side of this argument leads to success.
As a result "Academia" has extracted large sums of capital from the masses on their pursuit of enlightenment/success.


R

 

[APintOfGuinnessPlease!]

Sir - there's a difference between the self-appointed 'educated' and the worldly.

TO say that fireplace doesn't represent as much aesthetic quality as it does craftsmanship would show the ignorance of the critic on what goes into something like. To say abstract art is shit out of hand shows the same ignorance. Education is the bridge that allows both to be viewed for all the dimensions they represent.

I don't regard someone with an english lit. degree necessarily educated if they are wholly ignorant of science, engineering and the physical world around them. That's as myopic a view of humanity as any other.

 

[MidCitiesMildMan]

In short, there is no need for freedom is speech if unpopular speech is not protected. The teacher is the face of the government in that situation, and as such, must not infringe on the students rights.

 

[oneshot86]

I agree with this statement, with one caveat. Jefferson said "Knowledge is power."

During my time at UVA I made my self omewhat un popular by saying (this is original) "Knowledge may be power but power wiihout wisdom is folly."

You can have ll the education in the world, have all the knowledge, but if you cannot employ it in a creative, constructive, manner its worth nothing. Unfortunately thats the state the world is in now. We have all this 'knowledge' but no wisdom and thats wy the country and the world are so fucked up right now. A lack of the fundamental wisdom that synthesizes that knowledge into understanding.

very well said, i wonder if our lack, soccital wise, of employment of this knowledge, is a learnt behavior, of laziness...i employ the youth, i need men who can professionally dig with what we call a pony shovel, or a cap rock shovel...until i can break through the barrier that you can be proud of that hole that you dug life for them and i sucks, but when they get it they really get it, but most dont and move on and get fat and more stupid...
people are taught that you are stupid to do work in the trades, i take care of our men, really take care of them. they must work though, with their muscles and their brain...and we need more than society right now can produce...
you tradesmen, take these young men under your wing, it trully will pay off, but it must be good business, good for them and good for you.
i wish i could write and type better because this is a subject i would like to express myself clearer and say more on...

 

[Maggot]

very well said, i wonder if our lack, soccital wise, of employment of this knowledge, is a learnt behavior, of laziness...i employ the youth, i need men who can professionally dig with what we call a pony shovel, or a cap rock shovel...until i can break through the barrier that you can be proud of that hole that you dug life for them and i sucks, but when they get it they really get it, but most dont and move on and get fat and more stupid...
people are taught that you are stupid to do work in the trades, i take care of our men, really take care of them. they must work though, with their muscles and their brain...and we need more than society right now can produce...
you tradesmen, take these young men under your wing, it trully will pay off, but it must be good business, good for them and good for you.
i wish i could write and type better because this is a subject i would like to express myself clearer and say more on...

Truth be told, the 'Powers that be" dont want an educated thinking populace. They want drones and worker bees, to serve them. consider what Henry Ford said:

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

Henry Ford

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Guinness (and may I compliment you on a FINE handle!!!):

I do like modern art... if it requires talent. Pablo Picasso... showed talent and genius. A Henry Moore Sculpture may be modern and abstract, but required massive skill to create shape, form and then cast bronze, etc. Andy Warhol created modern masterpieces... that required talent. Calder, Fuchs, Lichtenstein, Stella.... all created amazing art that required real talent to put on canvas. Modern art that is abstract (even 'odd') but which requires talent to create impresses me at every level.

Paint tossed at canvas or a dot in the middle of a white background is just stupid and... well... a ripoff, foisted on an ignorant consumer with more money than sense. Of course, that's just me.

And, to go even further, the 'shock jocks' who put Jesus in a bottle of piss or paint with their own turds and call it art... are just scamming the public. Talentless con artists who think that going out on some socially-unacceptable edge makes them somehow edgy and talented. Heck, if I could get half a million bucks for a painting made by swinging a decapitated poodle against a canvas while wearing an SS uniform and yodeling a Yoko Ono tune... Hell, I'd do that in a second. Capitalism being my religion.

Then again, that's just my opinion. And there is a reason I don't make a living as an art critic. Because, well, I'd criticize morons with no talent, regardless of how edgy or angst-ridden their creations are.

Last, to whomever on the last page posted that picture of welding vs. a 'modern art' gallery.... You hit the nail on the head for me! But, as I mentioned, I ain't no art critic.

But, Guinness... I do agree that the arts matter. And I even appreciate the abstract. But my personal line is drawn on pieces that take a modicum of talent to produce. And throwing paint at a wall and asking 6 figures for it is a better scam than Bernie Madoff. Jackson Pollock, IMHO, is a fraud. Andrew Wyeth is a genius.

Of course, that's why they call it art. Because there is something out there to appeal to everyone!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[308220]

Free education. That is funny. People cant receive their diploma unless their "book fees" are paid. Nothing free about that. Unless youre an illegal. Then its FREE.

As for that little shit stain refusing to stand.....stand up, or get the fuck out. Im tired of people living here, or coming to this country, for the sole purpose of shitting on its values and tradition. "Oh, but his daddy was killed in war.".....maybe, so what? Millions on others parents have been killed also, and they still honor the flag and this great nation. He is just an asshole looking for attention. And one day, he'll get it. And not the good kind.

 

[Strykervet]

Fuck standing for the pledge... It stops being sacred and becomes bullshit the instant it becomes "do it or else". It's my right to stand, wave, salute, or jack off when the flag goes up or down or Mrs. Brown's kindergarten class takes the pledge. I remember stopping doing it somewhere in middle school when I realized, "why the fuck am I doing this, I'm what, 8?" So I stopped. Anyway, had they given me an education and anything to be proud of, maybe I would have stood. But goddamn them all for making me sit in a room full of boogerpickers with a fat housewife bitching about seats and having to coldcock some fuckwad everday at 3pm or else get coldcocked when I could have been in peace at the local public library.

Yeah, should have been real grateful coming out of toddlerhood and moving into puberty. Goddamn me for that.

Tell my kid he has to swear fealty to a country at age 6 and I'll teach him real democracy. I'll give him Iggy Pop to play during the drill, teach him why, and god forbid they put a hand on him while he does it. You know, the one thing my father gave me besides a concussion was to question everyone and everything and not to take anything at face value or believe the words of others untested.

My kid is one far cry from what I am or what my ancestors were, he's a "modern American" or "metrosexual" or whatever the fuck, but he made that decision all on his own. Hell, he's gay too (gotta be from his mother's side) and I could give a fuck as long as he's healthy and content. I bet he hates firearms with a purple passion, we aren't close, again, don't give a fuck, he's a man. All I gave him was breathe and freedom to do what he wanted with it and I swear to fucking god that's ALL I gave him for better or worse. Last thing I want is some cunt forcing her politics and religion on my kin; wars and heads have been fought over for less. Shit, my goddamn family fought for both the king AND the republic, here and over there --at the same time. And then did it again 90 years later. All we do is fight, but we fight for our reasons, "Touch not the catt bot a glove" I say.

Though I'm of the ilk that we all fuck up and quite often too, so were I the admin. I'd have told her the above and sent her ass back to work --but next time it's firing time.

You know that in the army, we all had to salute the flag but they had to make concessions for over one-hundred religions. You'd be SURPRISED at how many guys were muslim --until the service moved away from the PX and 9-11 happened, we had a lot of converts then. It's all bullshit in the end. All of it. Dad used to say "the whole world's an ashtray" and I think he may be right.

 

[Strykervet]

Oh, and patriotism to a fault is nothing more than state sponsored religion.

 

[Maggot]

Excellent insightful post, Stryker, though a bit seere. I feel no great allegiance to the flag and generally dont salute it, but if Im in a crowd I stand, just out of respect or all those who have sacrificed so much.c

I admire you for your attitude toward you son. Reminds me of part of a poem "The Prophet" by Kilhil Gibran.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

 

[Maggot]

Oh, and patriotism to a fault is nothing more than state sponsored religion.

Bob Dylan > Quotes > Quotable Quote
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"Bob Dylan","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/images.gr-assets.com\/authors\/1466390809p2\/8898.jpg"}[/IMG2]
“They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings steal a little and they throw you in jail. Steal a lot and then they make you king.”


― Bob Dylan

Dylan adapted this from Samuel Johnson

 

[APintOfGuinnessPlease!]

Guinness (and may I compliment you on a FINE handle!!!):

I do like modern art... if it requires talent. Pablo Picasso... showed talent and genius. A Henry Moore Sculpture may be modern and abstract, but required massive skill to create shape, form and then cast bronze, etc. Andy Warhol created modern masterpieces... that required talent. Calder, Fuchs, Lichtenstein, Stella.... all created amazing art that required real talent to put on canvas. Modern art that is abstract (even 'odd') but which requires talent to create impresses me at every level.

Paint tossed at canvas or a dot in the middle of a white background is just stupid and... well... a ripoff, foisted on an ignorant consumer with more money than sense. Of course, that's just me.

And, to go even further, the 'shock jocks' who put Jesus in a bottle of piss or paint with their own turds and call it art... are just scamming the public. Talentless con artists who think that going out on some socially-unacceptable edge makes them somehow edgy and talented. Heck, if I could get half a million bucks for a painting made by swinging a decapitated poodle against a canvas while wearing an SS uniform and yodeling a Yoko Ono tune... Hell, I'd do that in a second. Capitalism being my religion.

Then again, that's just my opinion. And there is a reason I don't make a living as an art critic. Because, well, I'd criticize morons with no talent, regardless of how edgy or angst-ridden their creations are.

Last, to whomever on the last page posted that picture of welding vs. a 'modern art' gallery.... You hit the nail on the head for me! But, as I mentioned, I ain't no art critic.

But, Guinness... I do agree that the arts matter. And I even appreciate the abstract. But my personal line is drawn on pieces that take a modicum of talent to produce. And throwing paint at a wall and asking 6 figures for it is a better scam than Bernie Madoff. Jackson Pollock, IMHO, is a fraud. Andrew Wyeth is a genius.

Of course, that's why they call it art. Because there is something out there to appeal to everyone!

Cheers,

Sirhr

Again I track with much of what you say. I have to see a visceral level of technical mastery to be able to really connect. That's why the welding pic is amazing. A necessary function now able to be viewed as art. To me it's the same as the masonry and iron mongering in cathedrals and other structures whose conception and execution are so ambitious, difficult and awe-inspiring that they represent the best of human output.

Talent though is tough. Where is originality in the scheme of things? Where is intuition and hard work along with skill? Is talent a function of the above and therefore the delta in those variables produce different kinds of art?

I like to think that I work consciously to reduce the sum total of my ignorance but some things will be forever beyond me. I don't get highly abstract stuff. I'll forever prefer a Constable to a Hirst.

I will say this - Strykers post is as bold and sharp as any Picasso. Something to think about. Isn't that the best goal of art?

 

[Maggot]

I will say this - Strykers post is as bold and sharp as any Picasso. Something to think about. Isn't that the best goal of art?

And or 'reason'.

 

[oneshot86]

i pledge alligence to the flag, but i am pickin up what you are puttin down stryker...get some...

 

[Maggot]

i pledge alligence to the flag, but i am pickin up what you are puttin down stryker...get some...

I believe what hes poointing at is tat a certain amout of patriotism' is ok, but in te end one must follow their own conscience and not the directions of others. I love and treasure te rights and privileges O have here, but if I see the country as a whole going in the wrong direction it is my sacred responsibility to do what is right regardless.

 

[oneshot86]

i hear yo bro, and i agree, we are in america baby, have it your way AND ill die protecting you...