• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

The Damage Wrought by the Gun Lobby

Phil1

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 3, 2009
465
7
Minot N.D.
April 4, 2013
The Damage Wrought by the Gun Lobby
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD

President Obama is being shouted down by the gun lobby. He and Vice President Joseph Biden Jr. have spent weeks crisscrossing the country, making a forceful case for a package of laws that would reduce gun violence. At every stop, including one on Wednesday in Denver, he has demanded that Congress require universal background checks, ban assault weapons and large ammunition magazines, and prohibit gun trafficking. He has invoked the bloodshed in Newtown, Conn., and the daily toll that adds up to 30,000 gun deaths a year.

“If there is just one step we can take to prevent more Americans from knowing the pain that some of the families who are here have known, don’t we have an obligation to try?” he asked in Denver. “Don’t we have an obligation to try?”

But the president has been unable to break through the blockade set up by one of the most powerful and relentless lobbies in Washington. The assault weapons battle has already been lost, and it is increasingly doubtful that there will be enough votes in the Senate to support the expansion of background checks, the centerpiece of Mr. Obama’s agenda. (Sixty votes will be required to break the filibuster promised by the most extreme Republican senators, Ted Cruz of Texas and Mike Lee of Utah.) Even the gun trafficking provision, which seemed the easiest to pass, is being torn apart by the National Rifle Association, which put forward a substitute version that would eviscerate the prohibition on straw purchases of guns.

The gun lobby is a combination of forces that includes manufacturers, hunters and hobbyists, political opportunists, and a fanatically active faction that believes guns are needed to fight off the conquest of freedom by the government. That faction is represented by the group Gun Owners of America, which has spent the months since Newtown doing tremendous damage, insisting that expanded background checks will lead to a gun registry that will assist a secret plan by the president to seize every firearm.

This is the group that said the blood of Newtown was on the hands of lawmakers who create gun-free zones around schools. Its executive director, Larry Pratt, considers the United States government to be largely unconstitutional, and says that gun rights come directly from God. “When we’re talking about firearms,” he said in 2010, “we’re not really talking about a right but an obligation, as creatures of God, to protect the life that was given them.”

And yet this twisted radicalism is playing an outsized role in the current debate. As Jennifer Steinhauer reported in The Times on Thursday, the gun group’s demands helped pressure Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma to back out of negotiations on the background-check bill, depriving it of crucial Republican support. The group has helped push the N.R.A. and several members of Congress further to the right, and Republicans say fear of its retribution is preventing a deal.

Polls show that more than 80 percent of Americans support universal background checks, but where are those Americans in this debate? The best-organized voices that officials have heard are those thwarting common sense on guns, forcing lawmakers to curl up and cower. As Mr. Obama recently admonished those who have remained passive in this fight, “tears aren’t enough.”



This is part of a continuing series on the epidemic of gun violence and possible solutions. Other editorials are at nytimes.com/gunchallenge.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/05/opinion/the-damage-wrought-by-the-gun-lobby.html?src=rechp&_r=0

If that wasn't enough:

April 4, 2013
Rewrite the Second Amendment
By ZACHARY ELKINS

AUSTIN, Tex.

THE elementary-school shootings in Newtown, Conn., in December produced two polar public reactions: fear among some Americans that the federal government will restrict gun rights, and hope among others that it will actually do so. Colorado, New York State and, most recently, Connecticut have clamped down on guns, while states like Texas, where I live, are considering legislation that would try to block the enforcement of federal gun regulations. The uncertain approach to guns is good for no one, except perhaps for gunmakers, whose sales have skyrocketed.

Lost in this confusion and anxiety is the possibility that a basic consensus on guns exists among Americans. Opinion polls suggest that a majority recognize a right to bear arms, subject to reasonable regulations protecting public safety. This strong dual commitment, if clarified and entrenched in our Constitution, could reassure most, though not all, of us.

Before you mock the idea of a constitutional amendment, consider that hardly anyone is happy with our unstable status quo: gun enthusiasts fear their rights are under constant threat; gun-control advocates point to the danger of illegal guns and easy access to firearms.

It is actually quite unusual for gun rights to be included in a constitution. In our historical study of constitutions, my colleagues and I identified only 15 constitutions (in nine countries) that had ever included an explicit right to bear arms. Almost all of these constitutions have been in Latin America, and most were from the 19th century. Only three countries — Guatemala, Mexico and the United States — have a constitutional right to arms. Of the 15, ours is the only one that does not explicitly include a restrictive condition. Of course, many Americans, and a minority of the Supreme Court, believe that our “militia clause” amounts to one such a restriction — an interpretation the court rejected in 2008 when it ruled that the Second Amendment protected the individual right to bear arms.

What would happen if our right to gun ownership were explicitly protected and balanced against a concern for public safety?

Laws to permit the carrying of concealed weapons are on the rise, but even the most ardent gun-rights advocates would not argue that owners should be free to carry, say, AK-47’s as they walk down the street. One of the most conservative justices, Antonin Scalia, in an opinion in the 2008 case, Heller v. District of Columbia, agreed with common-sense limitations like bans on guns in schools and government buildings.

Most Americans are committed to the Constitution and rely on the courts to adapt our antique highest law to modern technological and cultural developments. Many of us trust the judiciary to balance rights against the inevitable restrictions on them. But we are left with the awkward, irresolvable phrasing of the Second Amendment: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

“What part of ‘shall not be infringed’ do you not understand?” the gun-rights advocate asks. “What part of ‘a well regulated Militia’ do you not understand?” goes the retort.

Partly because of this ambiguity, the Second Amendment seemed almost irrelevant for most of our history. In the 19th and 20th centuries, many American towns and states regulated guns. In the deadly confrontation at the OK Corral in Tombstone, Ariz., in 1881, Wyatt Earp was enforcing a ban on carrying guns in public.

But in the 1980s, a movement to interpret the amendment as promoting the right to bear arms for self-defense emerged. It reached an apotheosis of sorts in the 2008 case, which struck down the District of Columbia’s ban on handguns. It was the first time the court had ever restricted gun regulation, but the 5-to-4 vote also suggests that the decision is not fixed doctrine.

This constitutional uncertainty should suggest to both sides the possibility of agreeing on a formal clarification of the constitutional text. Zealots will scoff, but many reasonable people would find reassurance in a revised Second Amendment that was properly balanced. Those who propose responsible limits, like background checks, would welcome constitutional support for common-sense safeguards. Those who worry about the slippery slope of encroachments on gun rights would find comfort in an explicit reassertion and reinforcement of the general right to bear arms.

Of course, even an uncontroversial constitutional amendment requires a minor miracle. The last time our Constitution changed, with the ratification of the 27th Amendment in 1992, it took a 10-year campaign (begun by a University of Texas undergraduate) to resuscitate an amendment that Congress had submitted to the states for ratification more than 200 years earlier.

A new gun-rights amendment would need to articulate a basic consensus that would let both sides claim victory. The alternative is more violent rhetoric — and more deadly violence.

Zachary Elkins is an associate professor of government at the University of Texas, a director of the Comparative Constitutions Project and an author of “The Endurance of National Constitutions.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/05/opinion/rewrite-the-second-amendment.html
 
Last edited:
Polls show that more than 80 percent of Americans support universal background checks, but where are those Americans in this debate?

The only reason that number is 80% is because people haven't realized that it creates a de-facto registry (record keeping paper trail) followed quickly by a real registry after the next big shooting. If people realized this that 80% they love so much would be 0-5%.

I don't think the gun lobby is having any effect in this fight. The reason the federal gun laws aren't going anywhere is because the people of the US don't want them and the legislators know this and that they would pay the price for a anti-gun vote in 2014. To me this piece is trying to put the blame for inaction on gun lobbies when it should be placed on the legislators. Either way, I'm glad nothing is really taking shape other than the universal registration bill, because at least you can avoid that by simply not buying any guns.
 
I would like to know who the 80% are. If they really want to do something good. Open the NICS check up so we can call in if we want.

But then they wouldn't be able to keep a record of everyone who buys a gun (the real point). If it were really about background checks they would make the system available to us.
 
The only reason that number is 80% is because people haven't realized that it creates a de-facto registry (record keeping paper trail) followed quickly by a real registry after the next big shooting. If people realized this that 80% they love so much would be 0-5%.

I don't think the gun lobby is having any effect in this fight. The reason the federal gun laws aren't going anywhere is because the people of the US don't want them and the legislators know this and that they would pay the price for a anti-gun vote in 2014. To me this piece is trying to put the blame for inaction on gun lobbies when it should be placed on the legislators. Either way, I'm glad nothing is really taking shape other than the universal registration bill, because at least you can avoid that by simply not buying any guns.

Why let the facts get in the way of a good story?

"A CBS News survey released earlier this week indicated a 10-point drop in the public backing of stricter gun laws, from 57% immediately after the shootings in Newtown, Connecticut, in December when a heavily armed gunman killed 20 young students and six adults, to 47% now.

That poll was in line with a CNN/ORC International survey released last week that indicated a nine-point drop in the percentage of Americans who favor major restrictions on guns or an outright ban on gun ownership, from 52% following the shootings to 43%."

Polls suggest Congress might have waited too long on gun control - CNN.com
 
The initiator of this thread is a typical dumb American with very little forsight.

Most of us would like to have safe transfers when a gun is sold. The problem is in the details. Yes, the details.
This requires information that is the beginning of a full registration of what the gun is, who owns it, address, and god knows what else. You would have it for the seller and buyer and it would grow every time a LEGAL transfer was done. I, for one, do not care to have my address and the fact that I sold on a gun to be left with the FEDS. They have already shown a contempt for the Constitution and for that matter, the military, white people, church people, people of the south, and those that mistrust the Govt.

IF even the above group pointed out by the Govt as THEM stands together, they will move on to the next big thing to screw up the US, the elimination of home schooling.
 
since when are there 30,000 firearms deaths a year in the US, I thought it was more like 8k or so per year for the whole country
 
What polls would you be talking about? 80 percent sounds alot like horse shit. I have seen a couple that have stated a 50/50 split or so with the percent supporting starting to drop to less than 50 percent. Anybody that understands it realizes its just a first step to registration. Why would anyone want to give the govern more power to abuse you?
 
since when are there 30,000 firearms deaths a year in the US, I thought it was more like 8k or so per year for the whole country

Another statistical embelishment...suicide is included as well as when someone is killed in self defense by a law abiding citizen.
 
Last edited:
Does anyone know just exactly what information will be included in the proposed background checks that is so much in favor by 80% of the population. How can you be in favor of something if you do not know the specifics of such.
 
I simply do not believe that there are 30,000 gun deaths un the US yearly. Perhaps worldwide...

If the point was truly saving lives, there would be a push to outlaw private ownership of autos, alcoholic beverages and tobacco would be made illegal. As this cry against alcohol, tobacco, and private autos is not happening, it is clear that the objective is disarming people, not simply saving lives.
 
If they are serious about cutting the number of deaths by firearm, make a new law. I know Tennessee has had a law on the books of over a hundred years to kill someone is a crime. Just make it so that anyone killing another person, (not in self defense) gets a public execution of the capitol level in 30 days. No psychological bullsh*t. Where there are witnesses and they are seen to commit the crime, hang them.

People have forgotten, if they ever knew, what a person looks like as he/she expires this life. The ACLU has made it so that murderers can get away with it.
 
we had a guy here in my town that was already in jail. he plead guilty to killing a guy by shooting him and had an extra 15 years tacked on. one of the conditions of the plea bargain was that the weapon possession charges were dropped. just another example of the fucked up repeat offender system.
 
The 80% thing is based off of a blanket statement. It is based off of a "yes" or "no" answer to the question "Do you think there should be background checks to buy guns?" Of course almost everyone believes that some sort of basic check should be done when buying weapons at a store or gunshow. But liberals feel that they can use the "yeses" to their advantage and say that 80% of the US wants background checks and finger printing for every firearm sales (even private sales). It is all about supporting what they think is right and not about the raw numbers or even the actual question that was asked.
 
what part of "it's a right" do people not understand.
 
If they are serious about cutting the number of deaths by firearm, make a new law. I know Tennessee has had a law on the books of over a hundred years to kill someone is a crime. Just make it so that anyone killing another person, (not in self defense) gets a public execution of the capitol level in 30 days. No psychological bullsh*t. Where there are witnesses and they are seen to commit the crime, hang them.

People have forgotten, if they ever knew, what a person looks like as he/she expires this life. The ACLU has made it so that murderers can get away with it.



Several crimes demand immediate and public hanging, In the street in front of the court house, and the Families are responsible to come get the Bas$%#@& when they want the body back!