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The Everyday Sniper Episode 21

I'm finally caught up! Didn't want to ask a stupid question that you had already answered, but I must say I'm learning a lot about things I had thought I had already figured out. My "training" has been limited to what ive been able to do on my own and sorting through all sorts of stuff (mostly crap) on the internet. You and Mike are both doing a great job at convincing me to go out and get some real training, now how do I convince my wife?

Joking aside, I have a reloading question for you. I know you are generally a factory ammo kinda guy which makes me think. How detailed do I need to get when it comes to my loads? I know it's a subjective question but when I try to do research the internet always seems to tell me I need $300 dollar dies and I need to anneal and on and on but real world I've had great results using pretty standard equipment. Where do you draw the line? What are some good practices? E.g.. neck turning, bushing dies, annealing, perfect trim length, sorting brass & bullets the list goes on forever!

Thanks again for all the hard work, it'll pay off when guys like me start flooding your classes!
 
@Lowlight
I had a question on this one as well. I'm pretty sure it's from this podcast, but I've been listening to a bunch so I may have it mixed up. You spoke about the positional shooters (PRS, NRL, etc) possibly having an advantage using the lighter bullets. Does the increased velocity from going lighter make up for the lighter BC? So in my case I'm shooting hornady Match 6.5 creedmoor 140gr ELD-M which has a BC of .610. If I went to the 120gr ELD-M itd be .486. Everything I've read has always pushed towards going with the higher BC so I'm trying to figure out where the line is between velocity and BC (if that makes sense). So pretty much when is the added velocity worth the lower BC? Thanks for the podcasts! Definitely makes my hour drive to work easier and tons of good info.
David
 
@Lowlight
I had a question on this one as well. I'm pretty sure it's from this podcast, but I've been listening to a bunch so I may have it mixed up. You spoke about the positional shooters (PRS, NRL, etc) possibly having an advantage using the lighter bullets. Does the increased velocity from going lighter make up for the lighter BC? So in my case I'm shooting hornady Match 6.5 creedmoor 140gr ELD-M which has a BC of .610. If I went to the 120gr ELD-M itd be .486. Everything I've read has always pushed towards going with the higher BC so I'm trying to figure out where the line is between velocity and BC (if that makes sense). So pretty much when is the added velocity worth the lower BC? Thanks for the podcasts! Definitely makes my hour drive to work easier and tons of good info.
David

You can often beat the drop numbers with lighter bullets. In your example you'll need to push the 120 about 300fps faster than the 140 to have almost identical curves. On the other hand beating wind drift with lighter bullets is a losing battle. You can get close, but heavier bullets simply resist wind better.

The question is, once you're unstable do you want the .2mil wind drift advantage or softer recoil... most of us find off a barricade that recoil throws us off more than any potential wind drift advantage. YMMV though.
 
You can often beat the drop numbers with lighter bullets. In your example you'll need to push the 120 about 300fps faster than the 140 to have almost identical curves. On the other hand beating wind drift with lighter bullets is a losing battle. You can get close, but heavier bullets simply resist wind better.

The question is, once you're unstable do you want the .2mil wind drift advantage or softer recoil... most of us find off a barricade that recoil throws us off more than any potential wind drift advantage. YMMV though.
So in a 6.5 are you guys dropping down to a 120gr class bullet or sticking with a "happy medium" at the 130 range? The 130 eldm ans berger hybrid have been interesting me lately as I look at data and shoot more.
 
It isn’t just wind or drop.. that’s paper stuff... You can’t just do this with analytics

It is the forgiveness of the lighter rounds that are the huge benefit.
 
It isn’t just wind or drop.. that’s paper stuff... You can’t just do this with analytics

It is the forgiveness of the lighter rounds that are the huge benefit.
So in a 6.5 are guys liking the 130 or 120 class bullets better for the forgiveness and recoil aspects for positional shooting?
 
You can often beat the drop numbers with lighter bullets. In your example you'll need to push the 120 about 300fps faster than the 140 to have almost identical curves. On the other hand beating wind drift with lighter bullets is a losing battle. You can get close, but heavier bullets simply resist wind better.

The question is, once you're unstable do you want the .2mil wind drift advantage or softer recoil... most of us find off a barricade that recoil throws us off more than any potential wind drift advantage. YMMV though.
Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation. In the podcast he was talking about the bullet exiting the barrel faster, meaning the faster it leaves the barrel the less chance shooter error or movement will affect it. I wasn't sure if that was the only reason and where the happy medium is with velocity vs BC. Once I run through my last case of ammo I'll try out the 120 ELD-M along with the prime 130gr otm and see where I'm at with drops and wind and too see if the recoil reduction helps with staying on target off of barricades and such.
 
So in a 6.5 are guys liking the 130 or 120 class bullets better for the forgiveness and recoil aspects for positional shooting?
I do not know the 6.5 guys in first person. But shoot a 6 br and you’ll laugh at near zero recoil. Shoot enough on shaky supports with the need to see the shots and lighter becomes the clear winner..

ELR is kinda of different animal- but speed still is needed more reduced recoil in positional shooting.
 
I do not know the 6.5 guys in first person. But shoot a 6 br and you’ll laugh at near zero recoil. Shoot enough on shaky supports with the need to see the shots and lighter becomes the clear winner..

ELR is kinda of different animal- but speed still is needed more reduced recoil in positional shooting.
How light are you going in the 6 br?

I don't currently have a 6mm, maybe in the future but for now I'm playing with 6.5 Creedmoor and looking to do what I can with it.
 
When the average range is 400 yards, how much "wind Drift" are we talking when everything we shoot is over 2700fps + closer to 2850fps, with a lighter bullet you are not gonna experience "wind drift " in most PRS Situations

Pick your battle, you shoot Oklahoma and you know it's gonna be windy, shoot bullet X, you shooting Core with no wind down there, 108gr Scenar will work out of your 6.5CM

Everyone defaults to heavies and covets the 6mm results, meanwhile, there is no reason you can't do the same thing with a 6.5, just pick a different bullet.

120, 123, 130, all can be pushed fast enough to make a difference and reduce recoil.
 
This episode was my favorite so far. I have been using lighter bullets (130 ELD. 260) with better results but I don't reload, so I figured I must be missing out. I thought if I could push a heavier bullet faster it would automatically mean more success. However, I'm going to stick with what works as I'm having better success in matches and practice, when going lighter in all aspects as I'm a smaller framed guy. Great job on the podcast Frank!
 
Has anyone had an experience with the structured barrel from tacomhq hq? Do they actually preform better? or is it just a way to sucker someone for a $1200 barrel?
 
How light are you going in the 6 br?

I don't currently have a 6mm, maybe in the future but for now I'm playing with 6.5 Creedmoor and looking to do what I can with it.

I shoot 105s is a 6br but do NOT use it much because with two shooting I wanted to shoot factory stuff.

The really good thing about the 6BR family is the small primers it uses so low SD ammo is easier to produce.. The really bad thing about most 6mm offerings is that match grade cheap ammo is a unicorn. Norma is about $2.50 each

The 6mm thing is about re-coil mitigation rather than recoil management. Free-recoiling takes out the driver and the shake that is induced when you load the rifle. If I balance my 6BR and free-recoil it it will hit and hardly move. On wonky supports, this type of combination has proven itself over and over. The ultra low recoil allows the shooter with less time or even ability to get square behind the rifle make shots.

If you are only a positional gamer and barrel life is a non-issue great; but it will ruin your day when you get behind a light weight hunting gun or shoot the bigger calibers for "field" ELR.. (Opps another, clarification needed for ELR)... The whole ELR thing is turning into a F-class type deal a lot of guys semi-free recoiling using ultra heavy long barreled guns you would not ever pack and some of the guys on the joypods etc.. then rushing to get back on the glass to spot the impacts. So I, recoil management is becoming less of an issue for them too. But to me it is not what ELR was about.. Rant over..

Back to your 6.5. I shoot a 6.5 in matches and started using factory ammo Prime 130's, again, because with two of us shooting, time was an issue and I could not hand load anything better if I was rushing - They recoil noticeable less than my hot hand-loaded 140 Bergers, running 2850. While on paper, the 140's look to be far superior especially, in 25+ mph winds, the lighter recoil lets me see a few more impacts especially if on a wonky barricade or something like a rope or chain and even in high winds end up with a better score. If I only shot prone, that might not be as true.

I would do a Lowlight suggested below -

Everyone defaults to heavies and covets the 6mm results, meanwhile, there is no reason you can't do the same thing with a 6.5, just pick a different bullet.

120, 123, 130, all can be pushed fast enough to make a difference and reduce recoil.
 
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If you are only a positional gamer and barrel life is a non-issue great; but it will ruin your day when you get behind a light weight hunting gun or shoot the bigger calibers for "field" ELR.. (Opps another, clarification needed for ELR)... The whole ELR thing is turning into a F-class type deal a lot of guys semi-free recoiling using ultra heavy long barreled guns you would not ever pack and some of the guys on the joypods etc.. then rushing to get back on the glass to spot the impacts. So I, recoil management is becoming less of an issue for them too. But to me it is not what ELR was about.. Rant over..
Cannot agree more on this F-class turn ELR is going into.
 
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What happens when a bullet is over stabilized?

There isn't a one size fits all answer to this question. Just too many variables to state anything in certain terms, but we can talk generalizations. In general we run into short range issues with the bullets coming apart and adverse effects on short range accuracy most often.

The most obvious to observe, is that bullet jacket can not take the rotational forces being exerted on it and comes apart. Once the jacket separates from the core it looks like shrapnel flying off the bullet and it's anyone guess where any of the pieces will go, including the core. Solid bullets, as Frank mentions, eliminate this as there is no thin jacket to break apart.

The second thing is a little technical with effects of yaw, nutation and precession. So we will gloss over all the math and physics no one wants to do.

The easy way to understand this is to think of the tire on your car. Perfectly balancing tires and rims in manufacturing is nearly impossible. Thus, balancing weights are added to the rim when the tire is mounted on the rim to balance everything. When you drive down the road at 35 and at 65mph with a balanced tire/rim it rides completely smooth. Now if you take the balancing weights off the rim you will likely still have a smooth ride at 35mph, but as you spin the tire/rim faster to 65mph you will start to feel a shake.

Bullets are effected by this same effect of not spinning perfectly smooth due to not being perfectly weighted. This shows up as decreased shot to shot accuracy at close ranges. As the bullet slows down at longer ranges just like with the car example the unbalanced effect on accuracy becomes minimal to imperceptible. The car example makes it easy to understand, but it's not quite perfect as bullets don't fly in a perfectly straight line as shown in below picture from a University of Utah Library ballistic article. Bullets actually experience center of gravity shifts during flight that car tire/rim are not subject to experiencing. Yet, it remains a good starting point without getting into heavy reading and lots of math.

Now recently there is some interesting hypothesis regarding "hyperstabilized" bullets, though it is backed by some very intelligent and highly regarded names, that's still largely academic at this point in time. It essentially states that it is possible to eliminate yaw(see blow picture) and thus minimize to eliminate the effects of drag from this movement during flight. In turn this will dramatically increase the BC of a bullet within certain flight parameters. Time and further real world testing, such as Frank's fast gain twist barrels, is still needed to fully validate such claims.

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