The Grid

[justin amateur]

I've spent the last three years shooting groups.
50 shots at a time, 100 and 200 yards and documenting the results.
I noticed something that annoys me, groups don't satisfy Rule #1....Hit what you aim at.
The group may be tight, but the center of the group wanders relative to the point of aim.
Shooting a group works well for dialing in a scope or checking ammunition quality,
but it doesn't meet the requirements of Rule #1.

Shooting for score is a much better method for evaluating accuracy.
But it sure does eat up ink and printer paper...that stuff is damn expensive.
Almost cheaper to buy a new printer each time the ink runs low.

I devised a much simpler solution for keeping track of my results, The Grid.
Section of cardboard, a straight edge and a marker, 5 lines horizontal, 10 vertical, try to punch the intersects.
Makes for a cheap and effective technique of documenting my results at 50 and 100 yards.
No proprietary targets, no printer paper or expensive ink consumed, the cardboard can be recycled.
Same effect as the USBR Green Monster X 2, all 50 shots on a single target.

Makes it very simple to document improvement over time, and ammo quality.
Not like groups where problems get hidden by the shift of the group due to wind or mv spread.
Cartridge created strays don't hide in the outer edges of the bug hole, every shot is on it's own.
Where it impacts is easily seen relative to the grid lines. Claims of sub-moa "all day long" don't hold up.

In order to maintain sub-moa at 50 yards, all bullet holes must show up less than 0.26 inch
from grid intersect to center of impact. At 100 yards have to stay within 0.52 inches.
That is not an easy thing to accomplish.

Tried it this weekend, CZ 455, Lilja barrel, 32x target scope on heavy bags, 50 yards.
Wind from the NE at 8-12 mph, my 10 o'clock.

Up first, CCI SV

Nope, no "all day long" there.

Then some Prime Semi-Auto, made by RWS.

Nope, those cartridges can't produce predictable trajectories.
MV spread and strays caused by cartridge problems.

Hey! Where's y'er wind flags? Those strays are caused by wind!
We don't need no stinking wind flags...it's fall. Fluff is in the air.
Seeds with the attached fluff are carried across the range, blown loose from the berm vegetation.
Extremely easy to see what the wind is up to. Watch the fluff dance up/down/left/right,
wait for it to drop and then squeeze. Nature's own wind-i-cators.

Jbell's 6x5 shows what happens for group size, but not how it does with Rule #1.

Grab some cardboard, draw those lines, let's see if you can really maintain sub-moa "all day long".
I can't, not with cheap rimfire ammunition. I'm going to try this with 22lr, 17hmr and 22wmr.
If you have a 17 hm2 or a 17 wsm, show us what you can accomplish. No printer ink or paper needed.
50 shots on one chunk of cardboard, no measuring or scoring needed. The bullets themselves tell the hole story.

 

[gkgeiger]

As an ARA RFBR shooter I agree with everything you said. I’ve been saying for some time that shooting groups won’t help you hit the dot.

 

[Dupemaster]

Sounds like the tack driving range game on a bigger and cheaper scale. I like it! Gonna give it a try next time I’m out at 50 and 100.

And, yes, I do agree that point of aim vs point of impact is a much better indicator of actual accuracy.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Isn’t the key the “I can’t with cheap rimfire ammo”…. Ugly chicks don’t win Miss America contests…?

I don’t disagree with your over all conclusions and definately like your testing method. I see POI ‘walk’, I see MILs worth of shift at 200y when ballistic calculators say that it should be 0.1s movement. We all have 1/2MOA rifles, it just depends on what 1/2MOA target it is going to hit this time…

 

[littlesister]

You've made a couple of good points when you're after maximum accuracy from a 22lr. #1. It's all about ammo!!!. There are really only 3 choices.Eley, Lapua and RWS. and you still need to lot test. #2. Group shooting is not the best method to determine accuracy with a 22lr. Everyone does it. It's fun and necessary to dial in your gun but shooting for score is a better test of accuracy. I see a lot of post showing small groups shot at the same point of aim. Not really a true test of accuracy. Shoot 25 shots at a PSL target or your grid target. Measure each shot and average the 25. Compare this to your 5 shot group. You'll probably be surprised.

 

[justin amateur]

Isn’t the key the “I can’t with cheap rimfire ammo”

Not according to the "find the brand y'er rifle likes" devotees.

All ya' have to do is find the brand and suddenly ya' get sub-moa all day long.

I keep hearing about Winchester Power Points and consistent sub-moa accuracy.
But for some reason, ask 'em to shoot and post a grid for me, there's nothing but silence.
Wonder why?

 

[straightshooter1]

I've used grids in the past for load development, putting a grid of lines on white butcher paper and it worked just fine. I switched to just putting 1/2" sticker dots on the butcher paper and found that preferable. It's a matter of taste, I guess. But, I find shooting bugs a lot more entertaining and go for head shots when trying to be as accurate as possible.

 

[usafa77]

I need that target- how can I get it?

 

[straightshooter1]

I need that target- how can I get it?

Here ya go (see attached) . . .

 

[justin amateur]

I can see the low ink warning light flashing from here.

Straight, you going to post a few grid results?

 

[straightshooter1]

I can see the low ink warning light flashing from here.

Straight, you going to post a few grid results?

I purged a lot of my old target photos, but happened to find one that I missed:

 

[AirGunShawn]

I agree with the OP, groups mean almost nothing to me and I don't even find them fun to shoot. They may be necessary for a short time
but banging steel is much more fun. For me, shooting paper is just plain boring. Shooting bug targets would be more entertaining but they are often too big a target. And they are still silent paper. So far the target I like the best is the one below. I go to UPS and have them print it on card stock because the bullet holes print crisply. It also allows me to keep data and keep an idea how my shooting is comparing to others in the club.

Prior to it, I simply designed my own target and had UPS print them up. I don't have the time, patients or desire to draw on cardboard
or apply dots to paper plates. YES.... I am that lazy !!

I bought some AR500 targets from eBay but they are too large to be fun or useful. I started to sketching up some steel targets
but realized they would need a very fine down standing section to support the actual target. It occurred to me that if I simply rotated the hanger and target 90* then I could use standard targets because they come in different thicknesses. .25" ,.38" and .50".... after shooting them a short
time, they would often fly off of the hanger. That is when I added the rubber hose to keep them in place. Now the target size and hose can be
changed in a few seconds. When the target seems too large, I simply push it out farther and do the math to see if I'm still shooting below MOA.

Now I have some cheap standard AR500 targets that will last forever and they make a very satisfying "CRACK" when hit.
Now if they could only be made in bright orange polycarbonate or something that would always retain it's color.....

BTW... the target was shot with a 1971 Anschutz 54 with out of the box Center X ammo. Non lot tested. See upper right hand
corner of target. The target has a 3000 point maximum so getting a 2325 feels pretty pathetic since it's only 77.5%
Still , I wouldn't even bother doing it if it were easy......

For me, the larger my target is, the more my POI shifts. It's as If I get mentally lazy, lose a lot of focus and get sloppy with
my basic shooting skills.

 

[DFOOSKING]

I'm pretty cheap....I just use lids from $6 Lil Ceasars pizzas boxes.....

Then grab an architect square and a plastic protractor with some presized circle shapes to easily put 5/16" (size I prefer for my eyes) sharpied every 2.5"-3" apart.

I can easily get 40-50 aiming dots on a lid.

 

[justin amateur]

Wonder what a grid would look like with bulk Federal 36 grain hollow points?

My current open box of squirrel stoppers, normally used in my Marlin 60.

50 yards with the 455 Lilja

Tailwind at 4 to 6 mph, this should be ugly

The circled holes fall within the sub moa category.
Actually, that's as good or better than the results with Prime Semi-Auto and CCI SV.
Wouldn't win any competitions for precision, but no trouble making squirrel head shots at 20 to 25 yards.

 

[straightshooter1]

Wonder what a grid would look like with bulk Federal 36 grain hollow points?

My current open box of squirrel stoppers, normally used in my Marlin 60.

50 yards with the 455 Lilja

Tailwind at 4 to 6 mph, this should be ugly

The circled holes fall within the sub moa category.
Actually, that's as good or better than the results with Prime Semi-Auto and CCI SV.
Wouldn't win any competitions for precision, but no trouble making squirrel head shots at 20 to 25 yards.

Have you compared them to Federal's Hunter Match cartridges?

My experience was Federal's Hunter Match cartridges weren't much better than this 36gr HP bulk pack.

 

[justin amateur]

Hey straight, Federal only manufactures hunting and plinking rimfire.
If the label reads "Match", it's only to improve sales, not to make a statement regarding quality.
My results with the Hunter Match were like yours,
not worth the added cost compared to the bulk cartridges.

I do like the Grid. Many don't.
Makes it extremely difficult to claim "all day long".
You can cherry pick a nice group, but a 50 individual shot target, not so much.

Might be the reason I'm not seeing those "magic" rifles posting targets.
You know, the ones that can fix mv spread and visibly beat up bullets.
The ones that "like" cheap bulk ammo and produce consistent submoa at 50 yards.


Eley Bullseye Pistol X at 50 yards

Decent looking cartridges with some mv spread.

CZ 455 Lilja and heavy bags

Better and more consistent results than the cheap cartridges.
Smaller spread, fewer odd strays, more hits on center.

 

[justin amateur]

Got a giggle this weekend.
Found a box of Remington Thunderbolts during end of year inventory of my stash.
Also a box of Armscor SV, so why not see what happens for 50 shots on the Grid.

Armscor Standard Velocity 40 grain 22lr

CZ 455 Lilja on the heavy bag

Bulk ammo results at 50 yards, good enough for center of critter

Odd strays due to visible differences in bullet shape and seating.
2 inches of horizontal and 1.3 inches of vertical spread, no surprise there.

Remington Thunderbolts 40 grain 22lr

Thunderbolts usually get laughed at, but this batch did better than the CCI, Prime and Armscor.

Wait! What? Thunderbolts did better than CCI SV, Prime and Armscor!

That's not supposed to happen, eh?

Right at an inch of vertical and horizontal spread.


You want to test y'er ammo for consistency? Don't shoot groups. Groups hide problems.
Shoot a one dot one shot target, or a grid, so as to be able to evaluate each cartridge individually.
It'll help make your decision as to purchase or not. If your first 4 or 5 shots are all over the place,
then there's no need to waste any more time with that box, move on.

 

[Milo 2.5]

You want to test y'er ammo for consistency? Don't shoot groups. Groups hide problems.
Shoot a one dot one shot target, or a grid, so as to be able to evaluate each cartridge individually.
It'll help make your decision as to purchase or not. If your first 4 or 5 shots are all over the place,
then there's no need to waste any more time with that box, move on.

I have only shot dot drills at 500 yards with CF rifles, and not 50 shots, maybe 10 over the course of a range session. I am going to try this, and have been wanting to for yrs. One bad thing about repetitive shooting for me is boredom, and things can go south rather quickly once the interest has waned.
I'll try stay in the game.

 

[Trung Si Ma]

I have only shot dot drills at 500 yards with CF rifles, and not 50 shots, maybe 10 over the course of a range session. I am going to try this, and have been wanting to for yrs. One bad thing about repetitive shooting for me is boredom, and things can go south rather quickly once the interest has waned.
I'll try stay in the game.

I have only shot dot drills at 500 yards with CF rifles, and not 50 shots, maybe 10 over the course of a range session. I am going to try this, and have been wanting to for yrs. One bad thing about repetitive shooting for me is boredom, and things can go south rather quickly once the interest has waned.
I'll try stay in the game.

I use a KYL target set that I attack when I find myself losing concentration.

 

[justin amateur]

SK Semi-Auto

CZ 455 Lilja at 50 yards

Nope, vertical spread due to mv differences, cartridge related strays
Almost no wind, waited till the airborne fluff wasn't drifting to squeeze.
Just not SK's best.

 

[Bgriff008]

I just use a blank piece of paper and shoot it. Then when I’m done shooting I draw circles around the holes. That’s how I sight in. I’ve never missed a bullseye at any distance. Amazing shooting.

 

[justin amateur]

Griff will be here all week and don't forget to try the veal.

I'm kinda wondering where the "submoa all day long with the brand it likes" posts are?
The grid is only a 50 yard Target, not a 100 or 200 yard rimfire challenge.
This should be gravy for all those 5 shot submoa capable at 100 yard rigs.

 

[Bgriff008]

Griff will be here all week and don't forget to try the veal.

I'm kinda wondering where the "submoa all day long with the brand it likes" posts are?
The grid is only a 50 yard Target, not a 100 or 200 yard rimfire challenge.
This should be gravy for all those 5 shot submoa capable at 100 yard rigs.

I was cracking up writing my post. I’m easily amused. But Yea 50-100 yds everyone should have solid groups. Just to show proof. These grous are from point blank distance. Pretty good if u ask me.

 

[Emerson0311]

I find 5 round groups with 22 show very little about expected accuracy. At least 10 /group is required to get a reasonable idea of what is normal for that ammo/rifle combination. Usually shot 6, 7, or 8 is the end of a good group.

 

[justin amateur]

SK High Velocity Match

CZ 455 Lilja at 50 yards

Nope, that's not match ammo by any stretch of the imagination.
Way too much vertical caused by mv differences.

Row 2 is why groups don't mean much.
Those 5 shots would be a submoa group, yet not one hit where I was aiming.
What good is bragging about group size, when every shot was a clean miss.
They hit close to, but not where I was trying for.

 

[JKW70]

Here’s my attempt. Circled the ones that I thought counted.

 

[justin amateur]

Eley Semi-Auto Benchrest Precision 40 grain 22lr at 50 yards

CZ 455 Lilja

Nope, no submoa all day long there

MV caused vertical and cartridge caused strays.
Not Eley's best.

 

[justin amateur]

I was going to try some Winchester 36 gr cphp,
but I found out why they were left in the stash.
They won't fit in a match chamber.
Try them later in another barrel.

Checked the range box and found a couple boxes of CCI 40 grain JHP Maxi-Mag 22wmr.

The Feddersen barrel was in it's storage tube under the chronograph.
Only takes 4 minutes to swap a barrel and adjust the scope turrets to the data in my log.
Sent 5 and fine tuned to the conditions, then sent 50 at 50 yards.

1 inch of vertical spread, 0.7 inches of horizontal.
Quite a few punched submoa, but still no all day long.
Very good hunting cartridges, never intended for precision paper punching.

 

[straightshooter1]

Eley Semi-Auto Benchrest Precision 40 grain 22lr at 50 yards

CZ 455 Lilja

Nope, no submoa all day long there

MV caused vertical and cartridge caused strays.
Not Eley's best.

Have you tried this so called "premium" personal defense 22LR product that Federal has put out?

I've ordered some just to see what it'll do, though I have low expectations as Federal's "premium" Hunter Match product didn't perform near what might be expected from the likes of Lapua, Eley or even SK. We'll see . . .

Federal Premium 22 LR Ammo 29 Gr Solid Flat Nose - Ammo Deals

Federal Premium 22 Long Rifle Ammo 29 Grain Solid Flat Nose at Target Sports USA with free shipping available. Enjoy deals on 22 Long Rifle ammo.

www.targetsportsusa.com

 

[justin amateur]

Haven't seen either available straight.
If you have a box, shoot a grid, so the rest of us can compare results.

 

[chevy_man]

So I take it you guys have never heard of a laser printer?

I bought the wife one for her office. Now it's .002 per page rather than .10 per page.

Fast also. Spits out 20 targets before I can put my boots on.

 

[justin amateur]

I hear ya' Chev...but there's still paper and toner and the cost of the printer.
The wife just replaced her's. 300 bucks for the model she liked.
I get cardboard, big sections that allow for the full grid to be drawn.
Costs me nothing, clean holes for review. I did buy a 5 pack of markers.

If you want to use a printer, go for it.
Shoot for score, answer the question...can you hit what you aim at?
Are you able to maintain submoa all day long?

All day long does not appear to be in my skill set.

 

[usafa77]

Every time i buy printer cartridges I cringe.

 

[acudaowner]

don't like printing targets you can get from time to time on amazon 1000 1/4 inch circle lables under 30.00 and even better from time to time buy one get one free so that could be 2000 1/4 inch label stickers for 30.00 and if you get it with free shipping that not bad no printer ink charges .

6528 pcs 1/4" Small Color Coding Circle Dot Stickers Round Coding Dot Labels,16 Colors​

9,99 get 3 orders of them that's 19,584 sticker targets for 29,97 no ink needed . or use a golf ball and try and shoot one dimple per 10 shots . hit a dimple on a golf ball at 100 yards has to be at least challenging let alone repeating it for 10 shots . Most golf balls have between 300 and 500 dimples, which have an average depth of about 0.010 inch. .

 

[BillW73]

I tried this today at 50 yards. I shot one target using the grid, and one using 1/2" dots to shoot 10 round groups. I shot 50 rounds at each target. The rifle was a Voodoo 18" MTU with a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 5-25. Ammo was Lapua Midas +.
Temp was 25 deg. Time 1130am, sun rise 1004 am, no wind.
Shooting was straight forward. Only had two small issues. Both were with the grid target. I did the grid on a 11 x 8.5 piece of paper because I wanted to scan it to make a composite target to match it to the target with the groups.
First issue was that even that early in the day, the effect of mirage off the snow was making the grid lines on the small paper very wavy, and the busy EBR-7C Reticle over the top of it did not help. My eye glasses also kept fogging up which made it hard to fine the intersecting lines. When I scanned both targets, I was surprised at how close they were to each other.
The ten shot groups when combined into one measured .696inchs or 1.329 MOA.
The grid when combined measured .663 inches or 1.266 MOA.
The grid was a lot more fun to shoot. I now have a starting point, and hope to see improvement as I move forward.

 

[justin amateur]

Bill....where is my rifle pron?

Yeah the dimensional results are useful data and the conditions are important,
but I need my pics of rifle, setup and a view downrange to keep me awake at work!

 

[AZ Dan]

Well...I now have an excuse to get a $5 Hot n Ready from Little Caesars....target practice!

 

[obx22]

Eley Semi-Auto Benchrest Precision 40 grain 22lr at 50 yards

CZ 455 Lilja

Nope, no submoa all day long there

MV caused vertical and cartridge caused strays.
Not Eley's best.

Thanks for that report, you saved me from making a mistake.

 

[justin amateur]

Well that was an unsatisfactory morning at the range.
I've developed an extremely low opinion of CCI rimfire ammunition
and after this morning, it's about as low as it can be.
CCI Green 22wmr no lead cjhp blew the mag well out of my CZ 455
bent the bottom metal and all due to overcharged cartridges.
This was the third time a CCI made magnum rimfire has done this.
Too much powder/primer caused a complete head separation.
Bolt was fully closed, cartridge fully seated, head and rim remained in the bolt face
held in place by the extractors, the rest of the brass in the chamber
cut clean off by the detonation. Cody and I will be communicating, again.


Not the best way to attempt the Grid.
That's for sure. Cartridge was overcharged, even with the head rupture,
the bullet cleared the barrel...takes some pressure to do that.

The 455 ready to go, ammo box freshly opened.

Closeup of the jacketed hollow points

Immediately after I checked myself for injuries and verified underwear still clean

Remains of brass still in chamber

Head still in bolt face recess

Catastrophic failure due to overpressure

Pushed the brass out of the chamber with a cleaning rod

CCI date code L19Z50

Documented everything for my conversation with CCI customer service...

 

[Aussiedan]

@justin amateur glad you're ok mate.

Having said that, I find this hysterically ironic.......

A user named aftermath, reacting to the aftermath of your ammo mishap

Yep, I'm going to hell.
I'll see myself out

 

[roostercogburn98]

Had a lot of CCI 17HMR that the neck would split during firing. Not as dangerous as this for sure, but not satisfying at all. Ended up sending just a hair over 1400 rounds back to them for replacement about two years ago.

 

[obx22]

I too had a case rupture, mine in an H&R 700. Not a pleasant experience.

 

[justin amateur]

All part of the magnum rimfire experience, more entertainment to keep us busy.

Prior to the excitement of blowing the mag well out of the 455
I did manage to send a box of CCI A22 35 grain 22wmr jacketed soft points.

Top left group was dialing in the scope and warming up.
1.1 inch of horizontal and 0.8 inch of vertical spread for the next 49 shots.
Quite good for 22wmr at 50 yards.

Many of those 5 shot runs would be considered moa or submoa at 50 yards,
if you ignore the fact that they weren't impacting where I was trying to hit.
49 shot aggregate is a touch over 2 moa...what I expect from 22wmr.

 

[JG26_Irish]

What Justin is saying is very true. There are not many rimfire 22's capable of half MOA at 50y or 100y "All day long". If,... you can do that even part of the time, you have a fine shooting rifle. I shoot a little bit of rimfire benchrest from time to time, both sanctioned ARA matches and unsanctioned outlaw matches using mostly the IBS 50 tgt at 50y. Attached is a tgt scored with my little Sako Quad at 50y on the IBS50 tgt. It scored 250 and 17x. Only the shots that hit the X-dot would have met the criteria for 1/2moa. I know it is only 25 shots but it was all I had in my files. The Sako shoots good but is in no way the best shooting rifle in the collection. Even so, to get even close to that good takes "Best" quality ammo. The only options that I have found which can sometimes meet that criteria are Lapua, Eley and RWS. Yes, I have friends whose Winchester 75 likes Winchester Wildcat ammo. Yes, I sometimes have found lots of Remington Thunderbolts that shoot pretty good in one or more of my rifles. That is not the norm. I opened a box of Federal bulk pack about a year ago to help break in a new factory BR rifle. I had zeroed the scope using SK rifle match and then shot about 50rds of CX thru it to see how it shot. I then used the Federal ammo to break in the bbl. I was hard pressed to hit a USBR tgt. Might have grouped 1" at 50y. That is terrible. With Lapua, it grouped 10shot groups at 50y of just over 13mm or just over 1/2". But that was the best lot out of about 25 lots of CX and Midas+ tested. My long winded point is that even if your rifle does shoot 1/2MOA "All day long", it is likely that it only does so with that one magic lot of ammo that hits its sweet spot and with all the others it is only so so. There are huge differences between great guns and typical guns. A great one is nearly dead and will often shoot any quality ammo pretty good. Even those will respond better when loaded with the ammo it likes best.

Just to put this into perspective, We sometimes shoot a know your limits tgt for fun. The rules are 5 shots only in 3min at 50y. Hits on the smaller dots score the highest and hits on the larger ones are lower in score. The highest score wins the pot. Even with a Winchester 52 that is very good using ammo that is very good, I struggle to hit more than 3 out of 5. The ammo is the limiting factor (and the shooter).

 

[obx22]

justin amateur
I decided to read this thread through again, and something stood out to me, so I reviewed all your targets and noticed a consistency (a good thing) that has me puzzled.
Do you shoot your targets left to right, top to bottom, or say top to bottom, left to right? (I know, silly question, but stay with me)

If you look at each bullet strike top to bottom and connect the dots in your mind, you start to see a pattern, a wave if you will.
It is consistent through several targets, which tells me you are doing this the same way every time. Question is, what are you doing? Are you loading from the mag, or thumb’n in single shot?
Wind deflection can’t account for this pattern, as the wave would not always start at the same point. Think about it after seeing your targets my way. I’m very interested in what you come up with.

 

[justin amateur]

OBX, which wave pattern?

There's a left to right and a top to bottom, row and column patterns.
I maintain the crosshairs on the point of aim until the bullet impacts.
It's not rifle wobble and it's not barrel whip. Barrel is bedded in channel.
Possible cause is minor shift in wind patterns, mistiming squeeze,
mv shifts due to powder/primer variations or differences in bullet weight/balance.
There does seem to be patterns in mv rise and fall during the 50 shots.

I'm going to try the grid with my heavy test platform...the Fuglie.
Take myself out of the equation except for wind judgement.

 

[justin amateur]

Here's a grid from 100 yards, chronograph numbers written next to the related bullet hole.
2.6 inches of vertical and 2 inches horizontal for the 50 shot aggregate.
It was produced with the 455 barrel block SOF on a Sinclair F-class bipod.

 

[JKW70]

My grid, post # 26, was shot @ 50, yards 50 straight, left to right, top to bottom. I didn’t measure any of them. If the impact didn’t touch 2 lines I didn’t circle it.

 

[straightshooter1]

Haven't seen either available straight.
If you have a box, shoot a grid, so the rest of us can compare results.

Just got a couple hundred rounds and will give that a shot. They've got a waxy coating and the general condition of the projectiles appear quite a bit better than average. We'll soon see.

I can't figure out what Federal is trying to do with a cartridge like this. It seems ALL marketing as I don't see how a 29gr flat nose with a published MV of 1070 fps can have much penetration to be labeled "Personal Defense" when penetration is so important for personal defense rounds. . .???

 

[adubeau]

Just got a couple hundred rounds and will give that a shot. They've got a waxy coating and the general condition of the projectiles appear quite a bit better than average. We'll soon see.

I can't figure out what Federal is trying to do with a cartridge like this. It seems ALL marketing as I don't see how a 29gr flat nose with a published MV of 1070 fps can have much penetration to be labeled "Personal Defense" when penetration is so important for personal defense rounds. . .???

View attachment 7771108

Paul Harrels review of the "Punch" ammo: