If you could pick you own courses in a rifle class what would you choose?? How would you start out and progress to the end? Would you have folks shoot stages or just targets at distance. The reason I ask is I just had one and I'd like to see if I was close to what people wanted or did I need to rethink the whole thing.
- Thread starter rezmedic54
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Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
Ideal, to me, would be a course which reveals everything important to good shooting. This course would show how to get a good hit in any condition to any distance the bullet could get to nose-on. Interestingly, such a course exists, it's the USAMU's SDM course.
Ideal, to me, would be a course which reveals everything important to good shooting. This course would show how to get a good hit in any condition to any distance the bullet could get to nose-on. Interestingly, such a course exists, it's the USAMU's SDM course.
Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
'Ideal' courses are built from the student body upwards, not from the curriculum downwards. Let me explain:
When I ask Moon to build me a rifle I don't micro-manage the process because he knows what he is doing better than I do. The same thing applies when I ask a friend of mine to make a piece of art, or when I ask another friend to assemble for me a CD spanning the history of Punk.
So, back in 2008 I contacted Frank with a suggestion: How about a Sniper's Hide class at Rifles Only? I suggested that the only requirement be the lack of a fixed curriculum and a small group of enthusiastic shooters. I didn't want to limit Jacob.
Well, the course happened and it was an eye-opener. The first day Jacob evaluated all of us to see where each of us was in terms of grasping the fundamentals and being able to perform on demand with our gear. The course then went from there....and we had a blast!
It was 'deal' because of the quality of the friends I made that weekend. See the Thread here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...9759#Post989759
If I were you, I would ask Frank and Jacob to do it again.
'Ideal' courses are built from the student body upwards, not from the curriculum downwards. Let me explain:
When I ask Moon to build me a rifle I don't micro-manage the process because he knows what he is doing better than I do. The same thing applies when I ask a friend of mine to make a piece of art, or when I ask another friend to assemble for me a CD spanning the history of Punk.
So, back in 2008 I contacted Frank with a suggestion: How about a Sniper's Hide class at Rifles Only? I suggested that the only requirement be the lack of a fixed curriculum and a small group of enthusiastic shooters. I didn't want to limit Jacob.
Well, the course happened and it was an eye-opener. The first day Jacob evaluated all of us to see where each of us was in terms of grasping the fundamentals and being able to perform on demand with our gear. The course then went from there....and we had a blast!
It was 'deal' because of the quality of the friends I made that weekend. See the Thread here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...9759#Post989759
If I were you, I would ask Frank and Jacob to do it again.
Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
Activities and goals should be outcome oriented, and driven by the learner. The MOL Technique is the method taught in advanced Scout Adult leadership training.
The course should concentrate on the basics, ensure that those skills to become ingrained before departure, and provide a learning path and formal exercises the learner can take home with them to develop and hone their skills. A checklist plan of learner accomplishments should be developed and agreed to by learner and educator, for completion over time subsequent to the experience. Post-experience tasks are best performed by partnerships which exchange roles as learner and coach.
Solid iron sight skills should be an integral part of the planned outcome.
It is skills, rather than equipment, that need to have the primary emphasis. In my opinion, very little can be learned about primary marksmanship that cannot be effectively learned with a .22LR.
Greg
Activities and goals should be outcome oriented, and driven by the learner. The MOL Technique is the method taught in advanced Scout Adult leadership training.
The course should concentrate on the basics, ensure that those skills to become ingrained before departure, and provide a learning path and formal exercises the learner can take home with them to develop and hone their skills. A checklist plan of learner accomplishments should be developed and agreed to by learner and educator, for completion over time subsequent to the experience. Post-experience tasks are best performed by partnerships which exchange roles as learner and coach.
Solid iron sight skills should be an integral part of the planned outcome.
It is skills, rather than equipment, that need to have the primary emphasis. In my opinion, very little can be learned about primary marksmanship that cannot be effectively learned with a .22LR.
Greg
Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
To me, the ideal rifle class is individual instruction.
I've probably attended about 4 handgun, and 6 group rifle classes (between "train-ups and classes); the problem with groups is that you are not dealing with equal experience levels and in order to bring every one "up to par" you essentially either start with basics and roll forward, leaving some behind, or have designate some instructors to help the "weakest link" pick up and thus need a high instructor: student ratio. And honestly having been "the weakest link" early on, its not a good feeling and will discourage the pursuit of marksmanship...I got over it, but those with bigger ego's wouldn't have...
To me, the ideal rifle class is individual instruction.
I've probably attended about 4 handgun, and 6 group rifle classes (between "train-ups and classes); the problem with groups is that you are not dealing with equal experience levels and in order to bring every one "up to par" you essentially either start with basics and roll forward, leaving some behind, or have designate some instructors to help the "weakest link" pick up and thus need a high instructor: student ratio. And honestly having been "the weakest link" early on, its not a good feeling and will discourage the pursuit of marksmanship...I got over it, but those with bigger ego's wouldn't have...
Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
I'll have to agree with SS on the AMU/CMP SDM program. I will add if one wanted to add transition, combine the SDM with the AMU/CMP CQC (Close Quarter Combat).
As a Side Note, the CMP sells both the SDM and CQC DVDs for $6.95 each. Well worth the price.
I'll have to agree with SS on the AMU/CMP SDM program. I will add if one wanted to add transition, combine the SDM with the AMU/CMP CQC (Close Quarter Combat).
As a Side Note, the CMP sells both the SDM and CQC DVDs for $6.95 each. Well worth the price.
Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me, the ideal rifle class is individual instruction.
I've probably attended about 4 handgun, and 6 group rifle classes (between "train-ups and classes); the problem with groups is that you are not dealing with equal experience levels and in order to bring every one "up to par" you essentially either start with basics and roll forward, leaving some behind, or have designate some instructors to help the "weakest link" pick up and thus need a high instructor: student ratio. And honestly having been "the weakest link" early on, its not a good feeling and will discourage the pursuit of marksmanship...I got over it, but those with bigger ego's wouldn't have... </div></div>
Bingo!
I have taken classes at ThunderRanch several times.
Some classes really get bogged down trying to bring "househusband" up to speed.
On the other hand, I lucked out in 2009 and 2010. Everyone was a repeat student and we really got rockin'.
More complex drills, more advanced scenarios, etc.
BMT
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UKDslayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me, the ideal rifle class is individual instruction.
I've probably attended about 4 handgun, and 6 group rifle classes (between "train-ups and classes); the problem with groups is that you are not dealing with equal experience levels and in order to bring every one "up to par" you essentially either start with basics and roll forward, leaving some behind, or have designate some instructors to help the "weakest link" pick up and thus need a high instructor: student ratio. And honestly having been "the weakest link" early on, its not a good feeling and will discourage the pursuit of marksmanship...I got over it, but those with bigger ego's wouldn't have... </div></div>
Bingo!
I have taken classes at ThunderRanch several times.
Some classes really get bogged down trying to bring "househusband" up to speed.
On the other hand, I lucked out in 2009 and 2010. Everyone was a repeat student and we really got rockin'.
More complex drills, more advanced scenarios, etc.
BMT
Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
"Ideal", of course, is subjective. I don't mind getting slowed down on day one by newbies and zeroing, IF the instructor will give me some fine point of my own to work on. But if the new-student drag continues over the course to the point that it turns what should have been a chance to collect new skills, into just practicing old ones....well, I can practice what I already know without the time and expense of a course.
The problem in any course less than a week long is that people want to put rounds downrange or they don't feel they are getting their money's worth. Imagine a full day spent dry firing from prone, kneeling, and standing, with focus on trigger control and NPOA -- and just a few live rounds for verification. Very valuable, but most students would feel that they did not get what they paid for.
After a basic PR 1 course, the ideal precision rifle shooting course for me would spend lot's of time working on the nuances that you need a coach for...not covering things you should have already learned and practiced before the class.
So I guess the ideal class would either be private, or limited size with equal skill shooters.
"Ideal", of course, is subjective. I don't mind getting slowed down on day one by newbies and zeroing, IF the instructor will give me some fine point of my own to work on. But if the new-student drag continues over the course to the point that it turns what should have been a chance to collect new skills, into just practicing old ones....well, I can practice what I already know without the time and expense of a course.
The problem in any course less than a week long is that people want to put rounds downrange or they don't feel they are getting their money's worth. Imagine a full day spent dry firing from prone, kneeling, and standing, with focus on trigger control and NPOA -- and just a few live rounds for verification. Very valuable, but most students would feel that they did not get what they paid for.
After a basic PR 1 course, the ideal precision rifle shooting course for me would spend lot's of time working on the nuances that you need a coach for...not covering things you should have already learned and practiced before the class.
So I guess the ideal class would either be private, or limited size with equal skill shooters.
Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColBatGuano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Ideal", of course, is subjective. I don't mind getting slowed down on day one by newbies and zeroing, IF the instructor will give me some fine point of my own to work on. But if the new-student drag continues over the course to the point that it turns what should have been a chance to collect new skills, into just practicing old ones....well, I can practice what I already know without the time and expense of a course.
The problem in any course less than a week long is that people want to put rounds downrange or they don't feel they are getting their money's worth. Imagine a full day spent dry firing from prone, kneeling, and standing, with focus on trigger control and NPOA -- and just a few live rounds for verification. Very valuable, but most students would feel that they did not get what they paid for.
After a basic PR 1 course, the ideal precision rifle shooting course for me would spend lot's of time working on the nuances that you need a coach for...not covering things you should have already learned and practiced before the class.
So I guess the ideal class would either be private, or limited size with equal skill shooters.
</div></div>
I think your post is astute.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColBatGuano</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Ideal", of course, is subjective. I don't mind getting slowed down on day one by newbies and zeroing, IF the instructor will give me some fine point of my own to work on. But if the new-student drag continues over the course to the point that it turns what should have been a chance to collect new skills, into just practicing old ones....well, I can practice what I already know without the time and expense of a course.
The problem in any course less than a week long is that people want to put rounds downrange or they don't feel they are getting their money's worth. Imagine a full day spent dry firing from prone, kneeling, and standing, with focus on trigger control and NPOA -- and just a few live rounds for verification. Very valuable, but most students would feel that they did not get what they paid for.
After a basic PR 1 course, the ideal precision rifle shooting course for me would spend lot's of time working on the nuances that you need a coach for...not covering things you should have already learned and practiced before the class.
So I guess the ideal class would either be private, or limited size with equal skill shooters.
</div></div>
I think your post is astute.
Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think your post is astute. </div></div>What's a stute?
</div></div>
It's sagacious.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think your post is astute. </div></div>What's a stute?
It's sagacious.
Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
G-lol
G-lol
Re: The Ideal Rifle Class
Your acknowledgement of my astuteness demonstrates sapience not often found on the Internet.
Your acknowledgement of my astuteness demonstrates sapience not often found on the Internet.
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