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Fieldcraft The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

ANGLICOMarine

Retired Marine
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 11, 2008
205
10
Atlanta, Georgia
Very interesting article from 2000 explaining the idea that traditional competitive shooters and snipers/tactical shooters have something to learn from each other and that the disciplines actually compliment each other.

I hope this is in the correct section, it seemed to fit here best...

http://armarksman.files.wordpress.com/20...ing-sniping.pdf



A Sniper’s Confession: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping
By Kent Gooch, CWO2, USMC (ret)
Originally printed in Tactical Shooter magazine, April 2000

Well before I became a sniper and sniper instructor – nearly 20 years ago -- there has been a rivalry, approaching an adversarial relationship, between the sniper community and High Power, NRA-type shooters in the military. I saw it when I was a Marine stationed at the USMC Marksmanship Training Unit (MTU) in Quantico, Virginia in the 80’s and also at the National Guard Bureau MTU in Little Rock, Arkansas in the late 90’s. Often the rivalry was limited to good-humored ribbing; still a good portion of it was serious and said with malicious intent. Often, the banter turned into fisticuffs, with the resulting bad blood between the two communities. This is unfortunate, to say the least.
How many times have you heard these phrases uttered, "I don't care what those paper punchers do, this is sniping and it's an entirely different game!" Who needs to learn how to use a sling? That’s for those yellow glass shooters!" Or from team shooter "Hey sniper! When are you going to learn how to shoot?" and "I'm telling you it's easier to take a National Match Shooter and teach him infantry skills than it is to take a grunt and try to teach him how to shoot!" I have heard these and a lot more, and being familiar with both sides of the rivalry I have come to some conclusions. What I will do here is attempt to show, through my own experiences and historical examples, the importance of competitive shooting events to snipers and how the two shooting disciplines’ interrelate.
There used to be a sign in the classroom of the 3rd Marine Division Scout-Sniper School in Okinawa. It has been awhile, but I remember that it stated that a sniper was a hybrid of a poacher and a competitive shooter. At the time in 1980, the sign really didn't register; it was simply a phrase intended to motivate the students. I was a high expert M16 shooter and that, plus this sniper training I was about to undergo, was going to make me a steely-eyed killer. I graduated, kept training, shot the M16 annually, went on to graduate from the Quantico instructor course, and figured that I was one bad Marine who didn’t need any training in other rifle disciplines. I never really paid much attention to the USMC Competition in Arms program, which holds Division level competitions and culminates in the Marine Corps matches and results in the selection of that year’s "All Marine Corps" teams. I saw the funny looking leg medals and kinda wondered what those distinguished shooters badges were about.
Once I got stationed at the USMC MTU I cohabited with the Marine Corps shooting teams. I made a few friends on the teams and started getting curious about this "competitive shooting" thing. I started talking to the team shooters and some of the more senior ones even taught me some tricks. Unfortunately, during the eight years I was stationed at the MTU, I only shot one rifle match, the 1000-yard stage of the Virginia State Championships. I wanted to see what the deal was. It was a good experience, and it wetted my appetite for later down the road.
In 1989, I was promoted to Warrant Officer and made a Range Officer. USMC Range Officers supervise marksmanship training and are responsible for the training and management of small shooting teams throughout the Corps. Many of the top enlisted rifle and pistol shooters are put into this military occupational specialty. I was selected due to my training background and was expected to get up to speed on the competitive aspects of the USMC marksmanship program. So at my first duty station I was appointed to be team captain of the shooting team at the Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo, CA. Mare Island is the original location of the West Coast Boot Camp and had a tradition of fine shooting teams back to the early 1900's. I was lucky to work with a Staff Sergeant who was an experienced competitive shooter and despite my best efforts to mess things up we put together a team, trained and went to shoot the 1st Marine Division matches in Camp Pendleton.
How did I – one bad sniper – do? You could say that in his first attempt at NRA style Service Rifle shooting this old sniper didn't do so well. In fact, I ended up about halfway down out of about 200 shooters. To understand why I did so poorly, you have to understand what I, a "tactical" shooter, thought about marksmanship and competition:
1. I thought I knew what precision marksmanship was about.
2. I thought I knew how to read wind.
3. I thought I knew what precision shooting under pressure was like.
I was wrong. On all three counts.
While I had a good idea of what was going on, I was only at about a sophomoric level, learned yet stupid. Most of the mistakes I made that first year were mental errors, not physical. I knew shooting positions, I knew wind formulas, and I knew how to press a trigger. The problem was in the application of these aspects, which had kept me at a mediocre level of competitive shooting. Let me explain.
Precision Marksmanship. When training snipers, many times instructors espouse the idea of precision being that as long as the students keep the bullet in the chest they are doing well. In competitive shooting, matches are won and lost in the X-ring. This elusive little sucker can ruin your day if you don't think center instead of a hit in the middle somewhere. What competitive shooting does is develop the mindset during training that if your weapons system is capable of holding .5 minute of angle (MOA), then you should be getting .5 MOA out of it when firing from the shoulder. I found as well that competitive shooting shows you the difference between a good position and a correct position. Not only that but it also shows you that through proper trigger control, position and mental management a shooter can regularly hit a man-sized target from the standing unsupported position at 200 yards and prone at the 600 yardline with iron sights and no support other than a correct position and a little leather strap.
Reading wind. As a sniper you learn how to read wind for your partner. You glue your eye into the scope and casually take a guess at the mirage, grass blowing, whatever. As the shot fires you watch the trace and impact and make required corrections. In competitive shooting you are your own wind caller. You must get the wind right or that little X-ring will elude you enough to put you right out of the competition. On rapid-fire strings you have to be fast, sure and accurate. You have to learn to watch flags, mirage, grass and any other indicators you can find. And when you make a mistake, it's your butt, your embarrassment, and your miss at 3 or 9 o'clock. The ultimate test of this, in my mind, is the 1000 yard match (relax you benchresters). It's in these matches where you are on the line with your peers playing a mental game. Here the X-ring is 10 inches and only the best will nail the sucker on a regular basis while reading their own wind.

Pressure. There are few stressors as evil as competition. When shooting a qualification course you may feel a little stress, when you are shooting for high shooter in a school you may feel even more. But show up to a firing line full of strangers, some of who look like they really know what they are doing. They have high speed looking guns and bright shiny reloads and their shooting jackets have patches from hell all over them. Each shot is spotted and scored and as your points accumulate the stress can start. Each firing line it gets worse and worse, unless you learn to handle it. That is when you will have to learn to deal with stress.
My experiences with High Power shooting impressed upon me the importance of NRA-style competition for a tactical shooter. That does not mean that I believe a High Power shooter in the tactical arena, when compared with the tactical shooter in the High Power arena, will outperform the tactical shooter. Quite the contrary. The proficient tactical shooter should be able to make that X-ring-accurate shot with monotonous regularity, but against live, moving targets whose comrades will shoot back upon successful interdiction. And this does not include the terribly strenuous infiltration and exfiltration necessary for a successful sniper engagement. In short, competitive shooting does not encompass the "poaching" skills referred to on the sign in Okinawa. What I mean is that the proficient sniper can, and should, learn from the High Power shooter, if he is to be a better sniper. This is important, for there is no second place in the sniper’s arena. Only death.
Since I left the USMC I began shooting in the Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships in Ottawa, Canada. These matches are open to civilians through the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (www.dcra.ca) which is the Canadian equivalent of the NRA. CFSAC is an excellent example of how bulls-eye competition can be crossbred with combat style skills. Competitors in service rifle/pistol, sniper rifle and light machinegun categories are required to apply precision marksmanship skills in combat oriented courses of fire at extended ranges while under conditions of physical and mental stress. My favorite is the 300m "Agony Snaps". In this match you are assigned a sector of fire in which a "Hun head" sniper target is presented randomly for engagement. The hard part of this is that you don’t know when or where the target will appear only that you will have ten, 3-second exposures in around 10 minutes, plus you have about a 4 inch 5 ring you are hunting. Just when you close your eyes to relax, sure as hell, there it is. The US National Guard runs a similar competition (American Forces Skill at Arms Meeting) in Little Rock, Arkansas annually, however it is not open to civilians.
CFSAC has given me the opportunity to compete against international level shooters and has allowed me to see other countries weapons systems and operational techniques. The firing positions used by Canadian Forces service rifle shooters are a good example of things that can be learned by attending these competitions. These positions, which violate just about every rule in the NRA High Power manual, are very interesting and are worth an article by themselves.
Another type of international competition worth mentioning are the Super Sniper Shootouts put on by Autauqa Arms. These matches draw competitors from all over the world and are a sure way of testing yourself against the best the world has to offer.
Though my own experiences impressed upon me the importance of competitive shooting to sniping, a review of the history of military marksmanship would have led me to the same conclusion. Let’s look at the military side of the question, which, if we are honest, keeps a good portion of the US competitive rifle-shooting program going. I'll focus on the USMC as it is the most active of the services, and I know it well.
The USMC did not have a competitive program prior to 1900. In a letter he wrote to he NRA in 1943, Lt. Gen. Thomas Holcomb, Commandant of the Marine Corps during W.W.II, and a Distinguished Rifle shooter, said the following:
I was introduced to the N.R.A. in 1901. It was a rude introduction because our team was soundly trounced, finishing sixth in both the Hilton Trophy Match and Interstate Team Match- events, which the following year, were combined into the National Rifle Team Match. Naturally, we did not relish such a poor showing so we set out to learn how to shoot. By 1910 the Inspector of Small Arms Practice, U.S.M.C., reported proudly that "over one-third of the men in the Marine Corps are now qualified as marksmen, sharpshooters or expert riflemen!" How many of the present generation of officers realize that in those days the Army, Navy and Marine Corps were actually learning how to shoot from the civilians and civilian-soldiers who formed the backbone of the National Rifle Association? In 1911 the Marines won their first National Rifle Team Match, and by 1917 we had progressed so far along the marksmanship trail that every Marine who sailed overseas was a trained marksman.
General Holcomb and his men were not the only Marines lacking in sufficient rifle technique at the turn of the century. In the Sept 1971 MARINE CORPS GAZETTE, USMC shooting legend LtCol. W.W. McMillan wrote, "In 1899, Commandant Heywood was appalled to learn that less than a hundred Marines, officers and men, could not meet qualification requirements with the then current Krag Jorgenson rifle. By direction of Major C.H. Lauchheimer, the Corps proceeded to take shooting seriously, both for combat purposes and competition. Marksmanship became a highly prized skill and valued adjunct to leadership."
Prior to World War I, Marines like Calvin A. Lloyd, D.C. McDougal and then-2ndLt Thomas Holcomb advanced the respectability of match shooting, while pioneering instructional techniques and training methods for a far flung expeditionary Corps. In 1906 Marines began getting the M1903 Springfield rifle. Those who could shoot expert with it were rewarded with marksmanship qualification pay of $3.00 per month.
The focus on rifle competition within the Corps reaped dividends in the coming years in Mexico, Cuba, Haiti and in the wheatfields of France. One of the better descriptions of the effects of improved marksmanship through competition is by CPT John Thomason, Jr. in his W.W.I USMC classic "FIX BAYONETS." "The Bosche wanted Hill 142; he came and the rifles broke him and he came again. All his artillery was in action and his machineguns scoured the place, but he could not make headway against the rifles. Guns he could understand; he knew all about bombs and auto-rifles and machine-guns and trench mortars, but aimed sustained rifle fire that comes from nowhere in particular and picks men off- it brought the war home to the individual and demoralized him". And "Already around Hautevesnes there had been a brush with advancing Germans, and the Germans were given a new experience: rifle fire that begins to kill at 800 yards; they found it very interesting!"
One need not take my word for it, or even the historical experiences of the USMC, to appreciate the importance of marksmanship competition to sniping, one need only looked at the life and experiences of Gunny Hathcock, himself a top-ranked competitive shooter and a very successful sniper. Through competition -- whether High Power, under the auspices of the NRA, or the Super Sniper Shootout – you can hone your skills and become the shooter that the bad guys have to worry about.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

Absolutely 100%. The fact that there are "sniper/tac rifle" comps and training routinely almost anywhere in the US has tremendously improved the effectiveness of our long gun war fighters.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

That article is getting a bit long in the tooth: It is about the relevance of NRA Hi-power competition to the art of sniping as taught to the military over twelve years ago.

A lot has happened in twelve years with regard to both military sniping and practical precision rifle marksmanship, especially when one takes into account that the primary benefit of a match is practice implementing technique.

Back then, very few competitions provided an opportunity to learn more than precision marksmanship (although some military matches had fieldcraft, including stalking). Today matches at Rifles Only teach much about how to fight with a rifle; ASC provides a unique tutorial in reading wind under real-world conditions; the Competition Dynamics 24 Hour Sniper Adventure challenge allows exploration of the limiits of one's mental and physical endurance; and the Sniper's HIde Cup requires that one first locate the targets, then range them and engage them within strict time limits.

Times have changed since the year 2000: The better civilian competitions are now more relevant, more practical, and more difficult than when Ken was writing and competing.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

Good read. I got the same lectur from Wayne Young. He was with the first team from the AMU sent to Vietnam to conduct sniper operations and conduct programs for the 9th IN Div and other units in 1968.

He sold my M1A in 1977, and got me lined up to attend the AMU Sniper School.

If you think back, some of the best snipers were competition shooters. (McBride, Hathcock to name a couple).

Don't discount HP, Across the Course and 1000 yard HP matches as a valuable training tool.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

Kent Gooch's observations are just as relevant today as when he wrote them.

The average Regular Army, National Guard, and Army Reserve rifleman is not a great shot, nor is he trained to shoot at distance. Once he gets assigned his sniper rifle he may get local training or a unit short course before going to sniper school. If he's one of the lucky few he gets a slot to Benning or Camp Robinson, and if he's both good and lucky he qualifies and graduates. If he's in a very good slot and unit he deploys as an entry-level shooter and gets to ply his trade killing bad guys on a regular basis.

He may or may not get exposed to advanced techniques, or get much opportunity to advance his trade once back in his unit before getting promoted up and out of his slot, or leaving the service.

An advanced sniper who's just ate-up with sniping will buy his own gun, scope, bullets, and gear and possibly compete in competitions and formal shooting to develop expertise (as he matures and reaches an NCO rank where the cost of his own kit won't cause him to go broke -- banked combat pay can soften the initial shock). Many won't due to the cost and ass-pain of being in the service and perhaps trying to do marriage maintenance and raising a family between combat rotations for a year or more each pump.

If he's lucky (again) he will try out and be selected for a special operations unit. As a junior Soldier/NCO he may get to snipe in a Ranger Battalion. If he's in SF he may be lucky enough to go to a local, unit, Fort Bragg, or sister service or outside agency school and ply his trade up to Sergeant First Class or even Master Sergeant if his team is tasked to snipe full-time (few and far between but we have them).

The reason many sniper cadres are built of competitive shooters is because...(wait for it)...the guys on the teams shoot a lot and love the discipline. Guys trying out for the Army "Big" Team (the USAMU), the All-Guard Team (from both Army and Air Guardsmen across the entire USA), and the Army Reserve Team are driven to excel with the Service Rifle and Pistol, either combat or bullseye. Guys from the other services are even MORE ate-up with shooting since they get less support, and to compete it comes out of their own pockets and leave time. Hell, the Navy and Fleet Matches are run by volunteers, reservists, and retirees!

Just because there are lots of wannabe open civilian "Sniper" competitions going, I'd be curious to know how many shooters are serving military men (active or reserve components) as opposed to hobby guys. Even USPSA/IPSC recognizes "High Service" guys in their comps and championships. I refuse to believe the three annual service competitions (Camp Robinson, Benning, and Bragg) are competing all the best guys per division and brigade that even WANT to go (I certainly haven't seen it around formal military shooting since 1999).

I'm sure your view depends on your experience and where you sit, but i would love to see service snipers get more trigger time and experience before deploying. The average sniper has more toys now than before 9-11 and the GWOT started (more than enough to fill a quad-runner in some cases), but I'm not sure the average private through buck sergeant knows how to use it all at an expert to mastery level.

I can't speak about the Air Force, Navy, or Marine systems.

My reading even on Sniper's Hide is most civilian competitors want to win, and rightly so. Many won't tolerate, support, or participate in a match if they were told they MUST bring either a bolt action or gas-gun that must generally mirror an M24, M2010, or M110, and it MUST shoot only 7.62 Match or 300 Win Mag.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That article is getting a bit long in the tooth: It is about the relevance of NRA Hi-power competition to the art of sniping as taught to the military over twelve years ago.

A lot has happened in twelve years with regard to both military sniping and practical precision rifle marksmanship, especially when one takes into account that the primary benefit of a match is practice implementing technique.

Back then, very few competitions provided an opportunity to learn more than precision marksmanship (although some military matches had fieldcraft, including stalking). Today matches at Rifles Only teach much about how to fight with a rifle; ASC provides a unique tutorial in reading wind under real-world conditions; the Competition Dynamics 24 Hour Sniper Adventure challenge allows exploration of the limiits of one's mental and physical endurance; and the Sniper's HIde Cup requires that one first locate the targets, then range them and engage them within strict time limits.

Times have changed since the year 2000: The better civilian competitions are now more relevant, more practical, and more difficult than when Ken was writing and competing. </div></div>

i think the point is not so much the nra high power comps but shooting any comps period and not getting stuck on yourself as not needing it or using it to hone your craft. yes, the whole discipline has evolved and changed but the point is still very relevant.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because there are lots of wannabe open civilian "Sniper" competitions going, I'd be curious to know how many shooters are serving military men (active or reserve components) as opposed to hobby guys.</div></div>
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Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

Most of the 'snipery' matches I've been to have a healthy component of active duty military and law enforcement personnel. At a guess, I'd say the average runs about a third or higher at the bigger matches. Some matches they are a majority.
If you've never been to one of these matches, you should go. Always challenging, always fun, and you will learn a lot.


1911fan
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

One problem that isn't talked about much, as to military shooters, is "Marksmanship is a Career Killer".

That's true in the National Guard, and more true in the Regular Army.

A case in point. Major Virgil Umphenour. I met Umphenour when we were both members of the Alaska National Guard. I was in the 38th SF Company and He had been banished to the 1st Scouts (1/297 Inf. A Native NG Unit. When someone met with poor favor amoung the powers to be, they were sent to the 1st Scouts. Out of sight, out of mine. The 1st was out of Nome, a long ways from the Merto Anchorage-Fairbanks-Juneau areas).

Maj Umpenour, (then Capt) was the OIC Chief Instructor for the Americal Division in 1970. He got the slot after attending the USAMU Sniper School and was a High Power Shooter.

I was in the Nome area doing some training of the Native NG members in Umpenour's company.

He had one of the AK NG NM M14s and we got to talking about marksmanship. He told me he tried to get a program going and ended up in Nome for his efforts.

He never made any farther up the food chain, retiring when he was still in Nome, never made it back into good graces to work his way back to civilization.

I was pretty much in the same boat. I also had to do my pentence with the 1st Scouts. But I worked my way back. I found favor with one Col who actually created a slot for me running the AK Marksmanship Program. Again a career killer, I never made it past Captain before I retired.

The difference with me, I was a M-day soldier. My career was with the Anchorage Police Dept. My hobby was the AK NG. I didn't care.

(Vergil Umphenour became a member of my rifle team which helped a lot but was never allowed to take any leading roll as far a the program itself).

It wasn't just the Guard. At the time they still had the FORCOM or Army Area Matches. The Regular Army (172nd Inf Bde) would grab some JR officer and task him to take a team to the 6th Army Matches at Ft Ord. They were sent to me (AK NG Marksmanship Unit) for train up. The officer and sr NCOs would get hyped up and interested in keeping their program going, Only to be transfered and the team disbanded after the match. We'd start all over the next year.

The same thing when I got a Sniper Program going for the AK NG. They (the 172nd) would send guys to our program only to have the RA graduates sent back to their unit and forgotten, never to be seen (on the rifle range again).

I was a little more sucessful with the Army teams that attended my Machine Gun schools.

If I wasn't good at anything else, one thing I was an expert in is Selling Budgets. I built one heck of a program equipment & supply wise. I was able to fund any guard member who was willing to put in the time to compete in matches, inside and outside the state.

I also provided support to any RA soldier who would show up at the matches with arms, ammo, and other equipment. A few did.

In the post Vietnam era, Marksmanship was a career killer. The army wasn't interested in sniping or marksmanship. The exception is the AMU who kept their program going until the Infantry School started the Benning School in the Late 80s.

It was considered a Sniper Instructor Course, to get a slot you had to convince the AMU you would go back to your state, unit, or dept and start your own program.

Besides the units in Vietnam, the AMU's Course trained instructors for the Army Divisions, States, Marines, and several civilian Police Depts including the FBI and Secret Service.

Got to hand it to President Ike for creating the Army Marksmanship Unit.

Back to topic: I don't know how it is now, (I retired in '92) but individual RA (or other services) who wanted to shoot could get with their State's NG Marksmanship Units and get support as to arms, ammo and equipment. The NG MTU enchouraged us to provide support to other service members (and state JR programs).

If one wants to shoot, he can. he doesn't have to go broke doing it. Soldiers are no different then cops. Regardless of funding from your unit/dept there are those who are interested and will shoot, then there are those who attend the school/qualification and do nothing with what they learned.

Marksmanhip isn't like riding a bicycle. Its a deminishing art, you don't practice you don't keep the skills. That's where competition comes in.

We can learn map reading and it stays with us, we can learn to call for Arty and it stays with us. We can learn to hide and it stays with us. Shooting is different, we can learn it, but its a use it or loose it proposition.

The army isn't gonna drag you out of bed on a Saturday morning, give you bullets and haul you to the range. You have to put in the effort yourself. Kind of like collage. I had to get a degree in something, so I got a degree in Accounting. That doesn't make me an accountant........I haven't done a damn thing with accounting since I graduated. Sniping is no different.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

Interesting subject. I was wanting to ask members if shooting a scoped rifle would help me in my pursuit of the Distinguished Rifleman Badge. A form of cross training I guess. I can say that the day before a match I was shooting my 700P (.308) at the local range testing some loads, and the next day I went on to shoot some great scores with the AR 15. Coincidence? I dunno, they are two different platforms. Anywho, good article and I'm always looking to improve my scores. Good luck and good shooting!

Doug
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

If you're gonna chase the DR badge, concentrate on the AR. Iron sights, sling position.

Go to the CMP Bookstore and get a copy of the USAMU's Service Rifle Guide.

If at all possible, attend one of the CMP Games where they put on a Small Arms Firing School.

Spend most of your time practicing standing. Tons of Dry Firing will help a lot. Get a score book and record every thing. Every change you make, every condition you shoot in. EVERYTHING.

When drying use your score book and plot calls.

Shoot every high power match you can. Shoot the CMP GSM games. use your AR and shoot in the Modern Military Catagory.

Its an honorable presuit well worth the effort.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Douglas-001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting subject. I was wanting to ask members if shooting a scoped rifle would help me in my pursuit of the Distinguished Rifleman Badge. A form of cross training I guess. I can say that the day before a match I was shooting my 700P (.308) at the local range testing some loads, and the next day I went on to shoot some great scores with the AR 15. Coincidence? I dunno, they are two different platforms. Anywho, good article and I'm always looking to improve my scores. Good luck and good shooting!

Doug </div></div>

My background is actually highpower/long range rifle and I found my scores actually improved when I started shooting scoped rifles and pistols. With a scoped rifle at a hundred or so yards you can see your impacts....giving me immediate feedback with each shot. I could see the result of every flinch and every bad trigger squeeze on paper...immediately. With a pistol I shot relatively close range as a result I could also see every bad flinch and trigger squeeze. As a result of this scrutiny I was able to give each shot I rained myself to see and feel the effects of poor shooting habits and consequently made me pay more attention to shooting highpower. By the time I came back in the Marine Corps in 2001 I was nipping at highmaster with a service rifle (my scores have gone down hill since then due to not shooting enough, multiple deployment and aging eyes) and I attribute the improvement in my scores at least partially to shooting scoped rifles and handguns....I believe it would help...I hope that helps.

Sorry for all the typos...typing on iPad kicks my ass...


 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

Thank you for the advice. I've shot at Camp Perry for 6 years now. You'd think I'd have it figured out by now.......I shoot with a local winter league and have been doing well enough to stay in the top 5 in the service rifle class for 2 years now. I'll pick up the 700P more often and see how that works out, besides, it will give me some more time on the new Mark 4 I put on it! Good luck and good shooting!

DOug
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

I found this read very interesting, me and some shooting buds have had discussions on this subject about every time we get together. None of us are Snipers and have no desire to even pretend to be one but we do consider ourselves Precision Marksmen. Nearly all of us are old time varmint hunters and have shot at extended distances for many decades with calibers ranging from the lowly 22LR to the larger more modern calibers including 1000 yards with handguns.

Know it might be treading close to a touchy subject but we've seen a lot of professionally trained military shooters come to our local LR matches but if you look at most of the top scorers, they are the old time varmint hunters that have put tens of thousands of rounds down range at elusively small targets in all weather conditions.

I try to learn from everyone I see shooting and can always pick up something that I've overlooked or see how it can be done just a tad better. Someone posted above this that a Sniper should be a combination poacher and competition shooter. It's easy to get caught up in the "I've been trained and I know how to do it" but when you see a fat ole farmer looking guy with bibs, an ugly old gun and his ammo piled in a cigar box showing up everyone it might pay to watch them a bit with open eyes and ears.

A good competition shooter needs to have so many skills, everything from putting together and maintaining his equipment, working up his loads, reloading practices, reading conditions, judging distances, and all the skills needed to make his gun perform the way it's needed to make an accurate shot. Even a lot of the stages in a tactical match where you shoot from uncomfortable positions and thru/over/under objects are things you can practice while out varmint hunting or even on a practice day.

Someone above also mentioned shooting handguns and thinking that helped his other shooting. If you can master perfect trigger control on a handgun since nearly all accuracy is based on exact grip control and perfect trigger squeeze that will just follow you to all your other types of guns. Same thing with shooting a flint lock, watch how perfect they have to be while waiting for that powder to ignite. None of my guns have what anyone would call a good trigger, crisp yes but light they are not. When we moved from the LR handguns to a rifle for the 1000 yard matches we could not believe how much easier it was than hitting the same steel with a bolt action pistol. Accuracy of the guns is nearly the same but consistency of being able to hold the gun the same each time was so much easier. Just saying, don't limit yourself to one type of gun for your practice sessions, learn to shoot all of them and all your skills will improve.

There are so many types of shooting competition but just because you prefer a certain type don't let that stop you from visiting other matches because you can learn from all of them and use those tidbits to improve your level of marksmanship. Easy to turn your nose up at someone that is using equipment that don't exactly fit into the norm at a match but if you can become proficient with that then it just gets easier as you get better equipment that better fits a certain type of competition.

Topstrap

 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That article is getting a bit long in the tooth: It is about the relevance of NRA Hi-power competition to the art of sniping as taught to the military over twelve years ago.

A lot has happened in twelve years with regard to both military sniping and practical precision rifle marksmanship, especially when one takes into account that the primary benefit of a match is practice implementing technique.

Back then, very few competitions provided an opportunity to learn more than precision marksmanship (although some military matches had fieldcraft, including stalking). Today matches at Rifles Only teach much about how to fight with a rifle; ASC provides a unique tutorial in reading wind under real-world conditions; the Competition Dynamics 24 Hour Sniper Adventure challenge allows exploration of the limiits of one's mental and physical endurance; and the Sniper's HIde Cup requires that one first locate the targets, then range them and engage them within strict time limits.

Times have changed since the year 2000: The better civilian competitions are now more relevant, more practical, and more difficult than when Ken was writing and competing. </div></div>

I'm mostly with Graham on this. I compete and also run competitions. There is a whole new sport that has been born since that time, and it very directly puts the same skill sets to work. Some points on that:

I shot quite a bit of CMP and have also shot F-Class. I see bright and clear differences.

In tactical/precision comps, you get the same competition oriented benefits that you would from traditional position rifle shooting like XTC, but you're using the SAME equipment, in the SAME fashion that you would be expected to in the field. It also leaves behind some important things that won't be going into the field with you. A specialized shooting jacket, glove, hat with extended brim and visors on it, and variations in technique that are highly competition specific in that sport. Such as single loading, and setting the position up with no regard to see the effect of the impact and be immediately ready to follow up if needed.

It is constantly evolving, and owes its popularity to watching very carefully what the challenges are in the real world, and modeling itself after them. It's actually BASED upon that relevance, not parallel to it. If a stage is presented to shooters that has questionable applicability, they will lambaste it roundly.

These comps also invite and encourage creativity, and effective reaction to constantly changing circumstances. Sometimes you see people solve problems by using equipment in a way that it wasn't designed, but winds up being wildly effective.

And there's no BS, very little chance to game (well, except the muzzle brakes you see to tame the massive recoil of the .243), no race gun advantage, and no frantic hustle to finish a quarter second faster than the next guy. You've either done everything right and you have hit the target, or you've missed.

--Fargo007





 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

I think the whole point of his article is thatcompetition shooting makes one a more precise precision shooter (and vice versa). I've shot both types of competitions and FOR ME the Practical/Precision game is more about field shooting skills (range estimation, shooting from "practical" positions, angels) than about super precise shooting. From what I've seen the most successful guys shooting precision rifle are the ones able to hit what he's aiming at WHILE being able to adapt to field firing conditions. Most matches I've fired the targets are 1-2MOA steel plates...generally. The challenge FOR ME wasn't necessarily hitting a relatively large steel target, but was hitting it while kneeling with my rifle through a barricade...or at 90 degrees...or proped up on a pack...or after a movement designed to get the heart rate up...or after trying to calcuate the effect of a slope...or trying to estimate a proper lead.

In match shooting I'm not shooting at my target with the above stressors....but i am trying to hit a 1/2 MOA x-ring and if I don't hold AT LEAST 1 MOA I'm losing points with every pull of the trigger. There are lessons to be learned from each discipline...that can be transfered back and forth. A precision shooter can bring certan skills to the table that would make him a better target shooter and a target shooter can bring things to the table to make him a better precion shooter. I don't think that precision/practical shooting is such a paradigm shift from traditional target shooting that it's impossible to draw from other disciplines...I dare to bet that our sport has benefitted from the lessons of the benchrest discipline (precise machining and reloading), why couldn't precision shooters learn from match shooters?

Considering the audience here (just an interesting rhetorical question) I wonder what the discussion would be if the article was from the other point of view: The Importance of Sniping to Competitive Shooting. Could competitive shooters learn something from snipers...of course...



Just interesting discussion...
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

The stress of competition of any kind is relevant because it requires the shooter to perform ON DEMAND, and under observation.

If that paragraph were written today it might refer to competitions that are directly related, as opposed to tangentially.

Sure there's something to be learned from all parallel shooting sports. The questions are:

<span style="font-style: italic">"how much can I take from competitive discipline X, how valuable will it be to my job, and how long is it going to take me to get it."</span> I see a very, very long and expensive road for highpower and XTC type competitions to show any value to a military or LE sniper as compared to the many different flavors of tactical bolt rifle comps available out there these days.

--Fargo007
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

Fair enough, I happen to think that anytime you pull the trigger it has a real and immediate benefit to any other discipline that also requires pulling of said trigger. I think the tie-in is that the entire point of target shooting is super precise shooting which seems to be especially relevant for precision shooters.

To me, the relationship between target shooting and practical/precision shooting is the same as the relationship between pure research and applied research.

Thanks for the discussion, this is why I posted the article.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Know it might be treading close to a touchy subject but we've seen a lot of professionally trained military shooters come to our local LR matches but if you look at most of the top scorers, they are the old time varmint hunters that have put tens of thousands of rounds down range at elusively small targets in all weather conditions. </div></div>That result is dependent on the skill(s) tested by the local match.

Broaden your match circle a bit and you will see that there is wide variety of both training and competence among military shooters.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

Was just saying they are usually trained in one type of discipline and haven't broadened their knowledge of various types of matches. Not that they aren't well trained for their specific job but hand them a flintlock muzzle loader or a handgun or some other weapon they aren't familiar with and they tend to be outside their particular area of expertise.

My post also said that all of us can broaden our horizons by visiting various types of precision shooting and learn something at each of them. It's easy to become so focused on one particular discipline we can start to get snobbish about other types of shooting and competition and feel there isn't anything else to learn.

Topstrap
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was just saying they are usually trained in one type of discipline and haven't broadened their knowledge of various types of matches. Not that they aren't well trained for their specific job but hand them a flintlock muzzle loader or a handgun or some other weapon they aren't familiar with and they tend to be outside their particular area of expertise.

My post also said that all of us can broaden our horizons by visiting various types of precision shooting and learn something at each of them. It's easy to become so focused on one particular discipline we can start to get snobbish about other types of shooting and competition and feel there isn't anything else to learn.

Topstrap </div></div>

I totally agree but I see tons more of this xenophobia coming from the NRA sports crowd than the tactical folks.

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Scottish</span> High Power
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seN7AKSwMFU

I hope it's not this way everywhere, but it sure is in my experience.

All except one NRA sports shooters I have been acquainted with shoot ONLY that way. By and large they just aren't interested in anything else at all. They explain that it takes a lot of practice and maintenance to keep their skills up for their sport, and I get that. But that can't be allowed to develop into hostility toward more contemporary shooting comps.

We have worked very hard to break this down. If you've got HP and XTC shooters coming out for tactical comps I think that's awesome. I've got one fella that comes out regularly, and you know what? He's pretty freakin' good too.

--Fargo007
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

Guys, this has been the best read I have found here on the Hide. All I can add is if you know or run into someone who declares his discipline to be "better" than yours-- offer him your rifle and gear. Coach the "nonbeliever" in your kind of match but ask if he will do the same for you. It'll probably open some eyes on all sides. If you don't think you can learn something useful from a different shooting discipline- you've got your head up your ass and you will be stuck at the skill level you have right now!
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

The advantage (to me anyway) of shooting more disiplans is you get to shoot more.

I'm a high power shooter orginally, but not much HP around here, I might have to travel 300 miles or more. If I'm gonna do that I'll pick a a two day event, HP one day, F-Class, GSM, or something else the next day.

I figure I should be able to shoot every weekend, I'll shoot what ever venue that allows me to do that.

My retirement goal was to shoot. I can't do that sticking to one venue.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

It is very relevant. I used to teach the SDM course at Ft. Lewis in 02-04 or thereabouts, and the first HALF of it was teaching them the basic NM course of fire.

It DRAMATICALLY improved and sped up their learning curve. It made my job as an instructor much easier too, as they knew what to look for.

Then to take that precision, academic style of shooting and apply that or synergize it with military combat shooting is, well, a no brainer really. Did it work? In just about one week or so, these guys regularly called their shots and hit their targets using an M4 and irons. At 600m. So yeah, it works. Also, when I went through the course myself, I have to admit that it made me a better shooter too and I was pretty good to start with.

In addition, I recently saw an interview with an AMU guy and he said (this was recent too) that they are implementing 3gun tactics into the combat shooting training that they are part of.

Finally, it all works fundamentally because these styles of shooting focus on hitting the target while military shooting has historically focused on fire superiority. Again, once you teach them to better hit the target to begin with, rolling that into the traditional combat shooting techniques is quite simplistic.

I'm a firm believer that NM shooting should be taught prior to any other form of shooting in the military. It is what should be taught in basic, they'll learn how to handle their weapons in other ways when they get to their respective units. It just makes for better marksmen overall, plain and simple.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a firm believer that NM shooting should be taught prior to any other form of shooting in the military.</div></div>

I agree, I'd like to see the CMP/AMUs Small Arms Firing School as part of basic training for every soldier.

They did it (used the SAFS format) during WW1, and it made a tremendious difference in over all qualifications and productivity in the trenches.
 
Re: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a firm believer that NM shooting should be taught prior to any other form of shooting in the military.</div></div>

I agree, I'd like to see the CMP/AMUs Small Arms Firing School as part of basic training for every soldier.

They did it (used the SAFS format) during WW1, and it made a tremendious difference in over all qualifications and productivity in the trenches. </div></div>

The Known Distance qualification the Marine Corps uses is largely resembles the NM COF (200 standing, 200 sitting slow and rapid, 200 kneeling (not NM), 300 sitting slow (not NM), 300 prone rapid and 500 slow prone).

It's staring to change a little with the use of the combat optic...but up until several years ago it was all iron sights and wind flags...