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PRS Talk The necessity of FFP optics in PRS

223Rem

223Rem

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Jul 1, 2004
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Going to give PRS a try and was curious to know if FFP optic are a must in this style of competition?

I do not have any personal experience with FFP optics, however I do understand their pros when it comes to range estimation and holdovers.

Would like to be competitive in the events so I really do not want to bring a knife to gun fight so to speak.

I have read, but no first hand accounts, that most shooter hoover around 12-15x power magnification for the majority of the match. If this is truly the situation, wouldn't a SPF optic set on it's ranging magnification of 12x ( that is the power level on the optic I originally planned to use) as a default be a practical alternative?

Just looking for some insight from the people who know a lot more than me about the PRS.
 
A. You won't be competitive when you start out. Period. That will come later with experience in what this particular sport demands.

B. If you think your scope's focal plane will hold you back, it will. If you don't think it will, it won't. Mindset it everything.
 
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Your second statement contradicts your first.

Isn't competitiveness and the belief of the ability to do well a mindset?
 
SFP will work fine as long as you "calibrate" your mag ring and remember to reference it, unless you plan to dial for distance and wind on every target (not recommended, but doable). By calibrate, you need setup a target at a known distance with a known width/height so you can dial your scope's magnification to get your reticle's measurements aligned with the target.

For example: if I had half mil increments on my reticle, I would setup a 1 mil target at 100 yards. I would look through the scope and dial the mag ring to get the reticle measuring the width of the target as 1 mil. Then mark your mag ring so you know exactly where that is. Then, repeat this process with half MIL.

Dont get me wrong, in the PRS world, you need to work quickly and you will forget to dial your magnification correctly on occasion - you will drop hits. But, you can certainly still be competitive with it.
 
I’m going to say yes, it’s all but required. Here’s my rational:

For sfp, you will be required to know/have different holds based on your dope vs your current magnification.

Which means, you will have to make absolutely sure you are on the exact power you want to be.

If you get down on a target and decide to turn your magnification up/down, you’ll have to know your changes and you’ll likely have to pick your face off the gun to make sure you are on that power.

FFP, do whatever you want with the magnification. Know your dope and shoot. Who cares if you’re between 15 and 18x, doesn’t matter
 
back when i started LR/PRS i got nf nxs 5.5-22 (sfp). when i did a valk last year for prs gas gun i went ffp (vortex hd 3-18) and will most likely go ffp for any future PRS stuff. sfp is certainly doable, just a little more thought and time involved and a chance to get a little mixed up here and there.

as the op noted, if you get a sfp scope with the max magnification range (ie where the reticle is true) close to what you'll use in the field, then any difference won't be quite as big, but you will be off a little still if not at max magnification.
 
I could shoot any stage I have ever seen with a SFP scope if the max power was somewhere between 12x and 16x. I would simply run it to max and leave it there for the whole competition. It would be a small compromise, but if you practiced like that you would be fine. I would only recommend someone go this route if they had an SFP scope already and wanted to jump in to shoot a competition before they purchased a new scope. If you are buying a new scope go FFP.
 
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223Rem said:
Your second statement contradicts your first.

Isn't competitiveness and the belief of the ability to do well a mindset?
Click to expand...
Not really, unless you just want to play word meaning games.

Competitiveness as referenced in both your OP and in his response has to do with how close to the leaderboard you will end up. 308s 1st comment is to set your expectations towards a realistic goal. His second statement lets you know that if you are already having doubts about the sfp scope, that it will affect your performance due to mindset.

Not contradictory statements at all.
 
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223Rem said:
Your second statement contradicts your first.

Isn't competitiveness and the belief of the ability to do well a mindset?
Click to expand...

I think his point is that, as a shooter who's new to PRS comps and all they entail, you're highly unlikely to possess the skillset and specific knowledge required to be truly competitive. I assume you can drive a car, and have probably known how to do so for some time. But if you got in a Formula 1 car on the grid and said you'd finish in the top ten because you think you have the right mindset, you'd be laughed off the track. There's a learning curve with any new endeavor. How steep it is correlates directly to how quickly you learn.

Gear can hold you back to a point or handicap you, but as others have noted, proper training can help you overcome those issues. If you just want to try it and see, go for it. If you find that your SFP optic is holding you back at some point, upgrade then.
 
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What has been stated about SFP scopes being "usable" in competition is true, with all caveats (run it at full magnification OR "calibrate" the magnification ring and accept the time penalty incurred to set/check it and remember which conversion to apply to subtensions at which magnification, etc.).

I did it that way. For.One.Match.

That scope now sits in my safe waiting for something to do or someplace to go.

You will find that it is imperative to simplify what you have to do as much as possible. When the timer beeps, all your planning and intentions tend to squirt out your ears, especially early on.

Example: In one stage of a rimfire match last year, the COF was shoot a plate at 115 yards, shoot the largest swinger on a rack at 170 yards, shoot the close plate again, then the next-smaller distant plate, and so on, total of ten shots. No dialing - holdover required. It was surprising how many shooters - EXPERIENCED shooters - forgot to apply the 3-mil holdover to the distant targets for a target or two (yeah. I did. o_O).

You'll find that good match directors create COFs that mess with your head as well as challenge your marksmanship (ok, I gotta shoot prone through a pipe... flop down, line up through the pipe, wtf, the targets are not visible through the pipe unless I move way over to one side...).

All I'm saying is, SFP increases complexity in an unacceptable way (imo) at anything other than full magnification. Simplicity is your friend.

Edit: The OP questioned "why not just run the full magnification" on an SFP scope. Yes, certainly, that's a possibility. But then, why not get a fixed-power scope and save some money? The SFP scope I mentioned is a 3-15x model I put on a rimfire used for matches out to 300 yards but as close as 25 yards. I found that 15x was too much in situations where I had to quickly find and engage multiple targets at different rimfire ranges. I really want to be able to use my magnification range!

Edit 2: This presupposes the OP is shopping for a scope. If he already has an SFP scope and wants to try PRS, he definitely should do so - FFP is certainly not required!
 
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223Rem said:
Your second statement contradicts your first.

Isn't competitiveness and the belief of the ability to do well a mindset?
Click to expand...

There is no contradiction. Ability is ability and mindset is mindset.

The correct mindset will let you tap all of your current ability, but it will not make you more able than what you are at that moment.

Practice and training increase your ability.
 
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Dthomas3523 said:
For sfp, you will be required to know/have different holds based on your dope vs your current magnification.
Click to expand...
Only if you hold off for wind and drop. While it's not ideal to dial for wind and elevation on every target, if that's what you have to do to get by as a noob then that's what you do.

I know where you're coming from but look at your own advice through the eyes of someone new: you just told him he absolutely needs a new scope to get started. That is simply not true.

You have to get a bite on the bait before you set the hook.
 
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It’s probably doable but not preferred and it would absolutely be a handicap. I dial elevation for just about every target (unless they say you’re not allowed, which is rare) but almost no one dials windage. There’s just not enough time and conditions are always changing.

The biggest gap I see in SFP is when everyone else is saying they held .2 or .4 for wind, you’re going to be thinking right edge or left edge unless you’re on the exact magnification of your scope where your holds are correct. Can you play this game shooting at the edges or “just inside right edge” or “just outside right edge?” Absolutely, but it’s not as precise.
 
308pirate said:
I know where you're coming from but look at your own advice through the eyes of someone new: you just told him he absolutely needs a new scope to get started. That is simply not true.
Click to expand...
Agreed! If the OP already has an SFP scope, go for it. If he is shopping, would it not be better to go FFP to start with... especially with competent FFP scopes available at (for this sport) very affordable prices...
 
308pirate said:
Only if you hold off for wind and drop. While it's not ideal to dial for wind and elevation on every target, if that's what you have to do to get by as a noob then that's what you do.

I know where you're coming from but look at your own advice through the eyes of someone new: you just told him he absolutely needs a new scope to get started. That is simply not true.

You have to get a bite on the bait before you set the hook.
Click to expand...

That’s true. I overlooked he was asking if he absolutely had to have it to start.

I’d definitely advise him to get out and shoot, no matter what. Just understand the extra work needed and do it. Save up and get the FFP later, but getting out and shooting is more important.
 
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68WF3 said:
I personally like sfp better....i understand ffp just fine.....at the end of the day, out to 1000 yards, It doesn’t matter as long as you can shoot. I did so much with so little for so long, it’s like a 15x ffp scope is like cheating to me now.
Click to expand...

Can I assume you always dial wind?
 
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So then you must always shoot on the power where the stadia measurements are correct?
 
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68WF3 said:
Usuallly, but it doesn’t really matter that much and I don’t care what any of you “experts” think out there because 99.5% of you never served in the military. let alone in any capacity that had a weapon in your hand in the face of the bad guys.
Click to expand...

Never shot in a PRS match but telling people what equipment to use in the sport? Lol
 
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Lol. Well then first I will respectfully thank you for your service, and second politely let you know it appears you’re pretty far out of your lane when it comes to PRS, which is what the original poster asked about.
 
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68WF3 said:
Usuallly, but it doesn’t really matter that much and I don’t care what any of you “experts” think out there because 99.5% of you never served in the military. let alone in any capacity that had a weapon in your hand in the face of the bad guys.
Click to expand...

Just to avoid confusion for others, the magnification DOES matter when using the reticle on an SFP scope (e.g. for wind), UNLESS it is a fixed power scope (in which case you cant change it). If an SFP scope is a variable zoom, let's say 4-16, the 1 mil marker in the reticle may be 1 mill at 16 power, but it is 4 mils at 4 power. This makes a huge difference for wind calls, especially at 1000 yards.
 
68WF3 said:
Usuallly, but it doesn’t really matter that much and I don’t care what any of you “experts” think out there because 99.5% of you never served in the military. let alone in any capacity that had a weapon in your hand in the face of the bad guys.
Click to expand...

Just one sec, let me call the cavalry of guys like myself who have......

@TheGerman
@Bender
@ArmyJerry
@TacticalDillhole
 
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68WF3 said:
Sure guy. My join date has everything to do with my “real” life experience.
Click to expand...

It's not that it reflects your experience at all. It's that you came in here spewing false info and acting like you had any credibility to back it up. You've been a member here for barely over 24hrs, you display little humility, and then want us to believe your history and experience?

Nobody joins The Hide and crashes through the "door" with their dick swingin' and has it turn out real well. Even if your past is accurate, you'll quickly gain a reputation the likes of which won't do you many favors!

Step back a minute, learn your way around, and THEN try to make a name for yourself. While using correct info... ;)
 
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68WF3 said:
I am a humble guy, you obviously are not. Don’t tell me what the fuck to do bro. False info? You ever seen a Somali get cut in half at 1200 meters with a fixed 10x scope/m-24 rifle. All I am saying is the real playing field, and what goes down on it it,is totally dif that your prs tactical match. End it yo.
Click to expand...

Cut in half you say? At 1200? With an m24.....

1/10 troll
 
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Gianteyeroll.Gif

2132AE23-E5DC-47E7-BC6B-FC1FA34F471E.png
 
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Might I suggest that maybe via PMs with mods, admin, whatever that this issue of a "Night Stalker", his service, credibility be resolved?
Pick your sauce, stolen valor or insulting behavior.
To let this continue is an insult to anyone that has served our country.
 
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68WF3 said:
Yes. My oral interview panel in Olympia wa said that I would be going to New Jersey. Wtf over. Maybe I had a specific skill set they saw fit for some fuckng place in NJ. Anyways,.....how many of you have 10 years of active duty experieance and a bachelors degree?....what was that?....1 of you....yeah get fucked at quit picking me apart.
Click to expand...

10yrs and a degree.....wow, I bet like no one else has that or more.
 
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The guys with experience are probably hanging out on the chess & checkers forums, not the precision rifle ones anyway.
 
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68WF3 said:
Yeah. You fucks are seriously insulting me. And I am about over this shit. I’ll meet any of you pukes down at the woodland wa Safeway if you have a problem. I am sure none of you would show because your 5.11 tactical pants are at the dry cleaners.....viva libtards and their wives that have secure jobs.
Click to expand...

+5pts for the Safeway

A piggly wiggly or Roses would have gotten you +10
 
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223Rem said:
Going to give PRS a try and was curious to know if FFP optic are a must in this style of competition?

I do not have any personal experience with FFP optics, however I do understand their pros when it comes to range estimation and holdovers.

Would like to be competitive in the events so I really do not want to bring a knife to gun fight so to speak.

I have read, but no first hand accounts, that most shooter hoover around 12-15x power magnification for the majority of the match. If this is truly the situation, wouldn't a SPF optic set on it's ranging magnification of 12x ( that is the power level on the optic I originally planned to use) as a default be a practical alternative?

Just looking for some insight from the people who know a lot more than me about the PRS.
Click to expand...

The short answer is that you can use any optic as long as it tracks.

You can also skateboard to work everyday if you wanted, but why not get in your car?

The downside of the SFP is that if you use the reticle to range or hold for elevation and/or wind, you have to have it set at exactly the setting it needs to be on for the reticle to be calibrated or you are stuck doing fractions on fractions math in the middle of shooting. If you dial both elevation and windage and don't care about ranging via the reticle, then there's really no difference for you in a FFP or SFP.

For the people that say use a fixed power and/or just keep the SFP on the power it needs to be the entire time, you could do that as well but it also comes with trade offs. For the fixed optic you can never zoom out to look for your target or make your FOV larger. For the SFP you can zoom out but then have to zoom back up to whatever the calibrated mag range is, as well as not being able to range at the lower mag if you find your target.
 
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68WF3 said:
Yeah. You fucks are seriously insulting me. And I am about over this shit. I’ll meet any of you pukes down at the woodland wa Safeway if you have a problem. I am sure none of you would show because your 5.11 tactical pants are at the dry cleaners.....viva libtards and their wives that have secure jobs.
Click to expand...
I would appreciate it if you would stop PMing me asking for dick picks. Just ask yer boyfriend. He has them already.
 
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68WF3 said:
Yeah. You fucks are seriously insulting me. And I am about over this shit. I’ll meet any of you pukes down at the woodland wa Safeway if you have a problem. I am sure none of you would show because your 5.11 tactical pants are at the dry cleaners.....viva libtards and their wives that have secure jobs.
Click to expand...

Mm hmm. I tremble in fear of your bachelor's degree, really I do. Now, I'm just gonna sit back and watch the ensuing Roman Coliseum-grade spectacle. C'mon, lions!
 
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68WF3 said:
Yes. My oral interview panel in Olympia wa said that I would be going to New Jersey. Wtf over. Maybe I had a specific skill set they saw fit for some fuckng place in NJ. Anyways,.....how many of you have 10 years of active duty experieance and a bachelors degree?....what was that?....1 of you....yeah get fucked at quit picking me apart.
Click to expand...

I think this year's Sniper's Hide Cup is out in Washington somewhere. Do you have any advice on how to train for that elevation/climate? How much lower/higher will my POI be if I'm used to East TX weather/elevation?

Is it true that shooting really small things close up is just like shooting bigger things that are far away?
 
68WF3 said:
Yes. My oral interview panel in Olympia wa said that I would be going to New Jersey. Wtf over. Maybe I had a specific skill set they saw fit for some fuckng place in NJ. Anyways,.....how many of you have 10 years of active duty experieance and a bachelors degree?....what was that?....1 of you....yeah get fucked at quit picking me apart.
Click to expand...
Didn't even know which police academey I would be going to when I did Oral Boards . Not even hired at that point let alone rostered .
Did they teach you the Phoenix Eye ?
 
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68WF3 said:
Yes. My oral interview panel in Olympia wa said that I would be going to New Jersey. Wtf over. Maybe I had a specific skill set they saw fit for some fuckng place in NJ. Anyways,.....how many of you have 10 years of active duty experieance and a bachelors degree?....what was that?....1 of you....yeah get fucked at quit picking me apart.
Click to expand...

Well now, this is an interesting comment and thread derailment...

But as to service and degrees, you're speaking to many that have as much (and most more). You may want to keep that in mind or...hold onto that shovel and keep on digging.
 
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68WF3 said:
I am a humble guy, you obviously are not. Don’t tell me what the fuck to do bro. False info? You ever seen a Somali get cut in half at 1200 meters with a fixed 10x scope/m-24 rifle. All I am saying is the real playing field, and what goes down on it it,is totally dif that your prs tactical match. End it yo.
Click to expand...

You're a humble guy? You can actually post that with a straight face after your posts? LOL Well here is a little advice and direction from site admin. Cut the shit and start acting like an adult here or your time here will be short lived. You can get your points across without putting everyone down and swinging your dick like you are Captain America. No one knows you and you are speaking of things like comps that you self admittedly have no knowledge of. You slam everyone else for supposedly doing that as far as the military is involved but you do the same thing to everyone here. Don't be a hypocrite. Just some friendly advice. Keep at it and you will be gone.
 
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