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The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

jtb33

jtb33

Full Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 15, 2010
502
15
PHX, AZ - USA
I'm referring to this, specifically: The Atlasworx DBM group buy for a DBM system that is similar to all other (Badger, CDi) for less than $100 shipped. Atlasworx is an Australian company who has released a product that is apparently comparable in quality and craftsmanship to the Badger and CDi DBM at less than half the price. CDi started their own group buy for their DBM and reduced the price from $209 to $129 in response to the Atlasworx group buy price for $87 shipped.

Now I've seen quite a few comments being thrown around in those threads by both CDi and others supporting the "buy American" ideal. Here's one comment from CDi's thread that's fairly representative of the rest:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AKA-Spook</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cant believe there are replies on this, of all boards, advocating the purchase foreign goods over products produced by American labor. Fuckin' sorry state of affairs. Talk about shame.... </div></div>

So according to these guys, it would be bad to spend $87 for a product from an Australian company and we SHOULD be spending $129 or $209 for the same product simply because it's made in America instead of Australia.

What I find hypocritical about this position is that I don't see the same level of outrage when it involves a $1000-3000 scope instead of a $200 piece of DBM. Nightforce is owned by "Lightforce USA", which (ironically) is an Australian company. Why no outrage when someone advocates buying a Nightforce optic?

How about Schmidt & Bender; a German company? Why no call-outs for those spending $3K on a German-made scope to spend that money on an "American-made" product?

It doesn't even end with scopes. How about rifles? Where's the outrage for those buying a Sako TRG 42, or a FN SPR?
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Can you link me to the group buy? Sounds like a deal.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

here is the problem,

Atlasworx is not a vendor and the people selling this product for them are trying to exploit a loophole in the site rules to get around being a vendor.

This group buy, which is ending today, will be locked and will never happen on here again unless they become a vendor.

It's great you found a deal, and like the idea of an inexpensive product that does something similar to the original. But people coming into posts and other group buys linking this is not right. It's a gray area for sure, but still, if this was another product I would have tons of moderator alerts. Instead we have people promoting this over and over which is just wrong and hurts those who are vendors.

they pay to be on here and sell, what you guys are doing with Atlasworx is wrong,
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">here is the problem,

<span style="color: #FF0000">Atlasworx is not a vendor and the people selling this product for them are trying to exploit a loophole in the site rules to get around being a vendor</span>.

This group buy, which is ending today, will be locked and will never happen on here again unless they become a vendor.

It's great you found a deal, and like the idea of an inexpensive product that does something similar to the original. But people coming into posts and other group buys linking this is not right. It's a gray area for sure, but still, if this was another product I would have tons of moderator alerts. Instead we have people promoting this over and over which is just wrong and hurts those who are vendors.

they pay to be on here and sell, what you guys are doing with Atlasworx is wrong, </div></div>

Good point - I neglected to mention that CDi is certainly not only a web site supporter, but also supports events. That's certainly worthy of mention.

I was not involved in that Atlasworx group buy at all. I just noticed it referenced on some other thread about DBM.

I should also mention that I have not purchased any Atlasworx items, nor do I intend to. I own a CDi DBM in one of my Remington 700 stocks.

Site vendor issues aside, I am still curious why all the call-outs about "buy American" when it comes to DBM's, but none such call-outs for Nightforce, S&B, etc...
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

I'm buying one of the Atlasworxs DBM's, for the price why not. I want to first hand how comparable it is to the Badger DBM.

Here's my bitch:
If CDI can drop thier price from $209 to $129 what does that tell you? They are still making money at $129, so they were making a hell of alot more at $209. This is a product that only a hand full of companies are making so they think they can just set the price at whatever the hell ridiculous amount they want. Iove my Badger M5, but the price of it is fucking ridiculous, and every damn person on here knows it to, regardless of what defensive stance they may choose to take. So, a new kid shows up on the block claiming to have similar product of equal value for less than $100 and it's pissing some people off, so what! Get competitive or get the fuck out! Only time will tell if this Atlasworx DBM is gonna hold up and earn the name of reliability that Badger has, but what if they do?? What if they turn out to be just as good or better?? Then what? You know it's not rocket science, it's a piece of alloy that holds a magazine, made on a CNC machine. Provided that the alloy is on grade with others, not much that can really malfunction here. The $87 is most likely alot more reflective of what the true cost is to make these DMB's and still have room for a small profit.

Im all about supporting America in the buying of goods. Let's take a look at this from another angle. What if Atlasworx was an American based company? So we'd eliminate the whole "forgein country" bias here. They end up making a great DBM for under $100, so what's that say about good "ole" Badger, CDI, Seekins?? It says they are price gouging the fuck out of the very people that are supporting them. Now obviously Atlasworx is not Amerian based so that will be their "black mark" from now on I'm sure. The product will/has been speaking for itself, no denying first hand use. There are tons of people out there that can't justify spending $300+ on a DBM, but they can afford to spend $90 and they will regardless of the location it's made.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Please don't change the theme of this topic to questions about capitalism. A company has every right to sell their product for whatever they want. If the market will bear that price, it will sell. If the market won't, it won't sell and they will lower their price or stop producing it. Pretty simple. It's obvious that CDi was worried about a competing product at about half his price-point moving in on his market share and responded accordingly. Not much to discuss there.

My question is with regard to the "buy American" call-outs. Why only on DBM? Why not optics? Why not rifles? Do these guys calling out Atlasworx purchasers only shoot Remington 700 rifles with Leupold optics on them?
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Trevor,

you're assuming a lot, you don't anything about the company in Australia for all you know they make money off Roo - collars and selling the bottom metal just barely over cost is no big deal.

Most here consider a product price to be at least 3x costs, so if Cdi lowed it to 1x over cost, he maybe losing money in the long run on it. You have employees, power, machines, taxes, marketing, this site, etc all to pay for. In Australia they are not spending that here.

Professing to understand the economics of the issue, is pretty ignorant if you ask me. Not to mention, Badger is the one who made this work. Several units went out first to Test and make sure they worked, I know I had the very first one. His brain power is the driving force behind this whole thing. Some say that is worth something too.

Because you can get a deal 6 years after Badger first invented it, you accuse them of gouging ...please get a clue.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

First, I hate it when people dump on someone's sale threads. It's just rude and disrespectful.

I buy American when I can but I never feel bad about buying from one of our country's allies. Nothing wrong with that at all, especially one of our English speaking allies that are always there by our side in a fight.

The rest, well I buy the best product for my money including my Eberlestock drag bag made in Vietnam. My scopes at home are a couple SWFA SS, ACOG, Aimpoint, Leupold and a SuB on backorder. I have a little bit from everywhere and they all kick ass.

Mostly I try to buy from guys like me. Impact Data Books, Triad, Hog Saddle, Centurion Arms, TIS and others that are shooters past and present applying their knowledge to great products. That fact steers my shopping compass more than where their product is made.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Frank, what do you mean by "an inexpensive product that does something similar to the original"? It's a DBM, it holds a mag, how is it only doing something "similar", rather than the same function? Are there greater or lesser degrees of holding a mag in?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, not at all, I'm just curious because this is precisely the type of thing I was speaking of above. If it's (turns out to be) of the same quality, performing the same function, why are people not going to rate it as a equal product?? Just because it's not "Badger" and they refuse to smell a sweeter flower?
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Show me a US made optic that is "affordable" or priced somewhat competitively with the NF and such.

Not everyone here can swing an extra 2000 bucks for a scope, but everyone here CAN swing an extra 20 bucks to support this forum and this country.


I think most people on this sight shoot savage or remington rifles and recommend the same.


Do what you can when you can.
And Leupolds, at last the mark 4's, are not made in the US anymore.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Lots of rails on the market that do the same thing as the next one, lots of rings on the market that do the same thing as the next, why spend the money for a Badger set of rings when anything you find at Wal Mart will work.

You don't know it does the same thing yet, you don't know how well it will hold up, you don't know whether or not they are using the same quality metals that will resist fatigue... barely anyone has used it.

Lots of parts on a rifle of varying degrees, why spend more ?
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trevor,

you're assuming a lot, you don't anything about the company in Australia for all you know they make money off Roo - collars and selling the bottom metal just barely over cost is no big deal.

Most here consider a product price to be at least 3x costs, so if Cdi lowed it to 1x over cost, he maybe losing money in the long run on it. You have employees, power, machines, taxes, marketing, this site, etc all to pay for. In Australia they are not spending that here.

Professing to understand the economics of the issue, is pretty ignorant if you ask me. Not to mention, Badger is the one who made this work. Several units went out first to Test and make sure they worked, I know I had the very first one. His brain power is the driving force behind this whole thing. Some say that is worth something too.

Because you can get a deal 6 years after Badger first invented it, you accuse them of gouging ...please get a clue. </div></div>

It never fails that in any of your replies where you are taking a different stance on a issue, you feel you must make yourself appear to be intellectually superior over the other person....why?

Yes I am "assuming" alot, but I also made that very clear several times in saying "if it turns out to be a equal product". The "if" is the key word here. I never said it was a tried and tested product.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

You hedged your bets with cute little, "ifs" and "providing" and still went ahead and made some pretty bold, statements against companies like Seekins and Badger "wondering out loud" in writing if they were price gouging all their customers because well after the fact an unknown product arrives on the shelf.

That is why, you can hedge all you want but the underlying fact is, you're attacking these companies, their pricing and practices because you found what appears to be similar product 6 years after the fact that is cheaper.

Sounds like a smart position to me,
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

So much easier an cheaper to make a knockoff, than have an idea of ones own.

Shit, at one time the Russians an Jap's were all most as good as china is today,... but who is still target one?
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

I'm not attacking anyone and I'll stick by my comments in regards to their pricing. I'm very up to date on metallurgy and the costs of alloys Frank. I deal with it daily, yes even the purchasing/bidding aspects of it. I know the costs of said alloys. No, I do not know or have a clue about their personal overhead costs to keep their shops running, but regardless the price for DBM is insane. I'm not taking any credit away from the inventors of the original product, but that's how things go, someone designs the original and then others "remake" the same damn thing for less. Nothing new there.

Your going to argue your opinions to the end, and me being how I am, I will too so I'll just close my mouth here and stop feeding the monster. If the new DBM turns out to be a turd, I'll damn sure let it be known. I won't try to polish it just because I was lured in by the lower price. A turd is a turd.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a product that only a hand full of companies are making so they think they can just set the price at whatever the hell ridiculous amount they want. Iove my Badger M5, <span style="font-style: italic">but the price of it is fucking ridiculous,</span> and every damn person on here knows it to, regardless of what defensive stance they may choose to take.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> They end up making a great DBM for under $100, so what's that say about good "ole" Badger, CDI, Seekins?? <span style="font-weight: bold">It says they are price gouging the fuck out of the very people that are supporting them.</span></div></div>

Yep, you got me, I am done, nothing else to say...
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So according to these guys, it would be bad to spend $87 for a product from an Australian company and we SHOULD be spending $129 or $209 for the same product simply because it's made in America instead of Australia.

What I find hypocritical about this position is that I don't see the same level of outrage when it involves a $1000-3000 scope instead of a $200 piece of DBM. Nightforce is owned by "Lightforce USA", which (ironically) is an Australian company. Why no outrage when someone advocates buying a Nightforce optic? </div></div>

Hell yes. In my mind you should spend the money here. Will your one purchase make a difference? Probably not. If others follow suit , then maybe it will. Maybe then Marty takes his profit and buy an American product, the balls a rolling then.

I started the 500K jobs thread. I'm not sorry I did. I've got family that is affected by this poor excuse for an economy. If people would buy more American some of my family would not be in the predicament they are.

Is Vortex not an American Company? Do they not employ American workers?
Is USO not an American Company? Do they not employ American workers?
Is Premier not an American Company? Do they not employ American workers?

Nightforce Optics are assembled here, I'm ok with purchasing from them as the purchase keeps Americans working.
What I have issues with are all the Made in Japan, China, etc...

If you are wondering yeah.. I have Vortex Optics and soon to be USO. I currently have Nighforce that I'm considering selling and getting a USO. Only fitting since I helped with design of a new ret. they offer.

Do I have all the answers and have I researched all the facts? No I haven't. Did I make that post out of emotion and anger? Yeah I did. No guess work there.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

i buy whoever makes the best product...lately, it has NOT been american...i want the best, so i wont settle for something else due to where its made.

i refuse to handicap myself over that silly bullshit
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Probably wouldn't be silly if it affected you. There are comparable products of like, kind and quality that are American. Just being and American gives you the ability to choose. Much to that.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Reading some of these posts I'm reminded of a bumper sticker I saw years ago:

It said "Help support American jobs, Fly Pan AM"

The bumper sticker was mounted on the rear of a Toyota and Pan AM went bankrupt......Irony is a bitch.

Being this is still a free country, y'all can buy whatever you wish, at whatever price your willing to pay.

But at some point in the future, unless we collectively and consciously change our buying habits, "Buying American" won't be an option.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cocadori</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So according to these guys, it would be bad to spend $87 for a product from an Australian company and we SHOULD be spending $129 or $209 for the same product simply because it's made in America instead of Australia.

What I find hypocritical about this position is that I don't see the same level of outrage when it involves a $1000-3000 scope instead of a $200 piece of DBM. Nightforce is owned by "Lightforce USA", which (ironically) is an Australian company. Why no outrage when someone advocates buying a Nightforce optic? </div></div>

Hell yes. In my mind you should spend the money here. Will your one purchase make a difference? Probably not. If others follow suit , then maybe it will. Maybe then Marty takes his profit and buy an American product, the balls a rolling then.

I started the 500K jobs thread. I'm not sorry I did. I've got family that is affected by this poor excuse for an economy. If people would buy more American some of my family would not be in the predicament they are.

Is Vortex not an American Company? Do they not employ American workers?
Is USO not an American Company? Do they not employ American workers?
Is Premier not an American Company? Do they not employ American workers?

Nightforce Optics are assembled here, I'm ok with purchasing from them as the purchase keeps Americans working.
What I have issues with are all the Made in Japan, China, etc...

If you are wondering yeah.. I have Vortex Optics and soon to be USO. I currently have Nighforce that I'm considering selling and getting a USO. Only fitting since I helped with design of a new ret. they offer.

Do I have all the answers and have I researched all the facts? No I haven't. Did I make that post out of emotion and anger? Yeah I did. No guess work there.
</div></div>

Ever look at the tag on your pants to see where they were made? How about your T.V.? Your computer? Any number of consumer products around your home?

I wonder how many of the critics on here actually walk the walk. Yeah it's nice to support the national economy, in an ideal world. But in this economy who can afford to pay 3X their current expenses for everything they buy? I know I can't.

If you're lucky enough to be able to afford to buy only American products, then kudos to you. Just don't criticize those of us who can't. Sure I'd like to have U.S.O.'s on every rifle I own. But my kids are kind of fond of having supper every night, so I compromise.

And I don't think the American DBM manufacturers can single-handedly shore up the U.S. economy.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Never said I was perfect. Nor did I say everything. However, I am looking, searching and choosing when possible. Go back to my thread I started. Ever think about what you actually need as opposed to what you want.

It isn't an easy task but I know I'm making the effort.

I also buy local. I buy from mom and pop. I don't buy as much because it cost a bit more. But how "much" do you "need" as opposed to how much you "want."

Am I criticizing no. That is on you and your conscious. All I was asking for was an effort.

Would I ever buy American if I was taking food from my family. Honestly that's an absurd question/comment. Based upon unrealistic logic.

Lupy is made here... so buying one keeps Americans working. I'm ok with that.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

The pics that are posted in that group buy thread look like an exact copy of a Badger DBM. Does Badger hold a Patent on their DBM ?.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Its simple. I choose to not reward mediocrity with my money, but instead excellence. If said American's want my business then they need to be able to compete in the world market. Keeping it 'in America' just for the sake of buying American is a foolish theory. If anything it just perpetuates the current economic state of Americans having entitlement issues and thinking they can do inferior but still get by because HEY IM AMERICAN... No wonder our welfare system is overcapacity.

I have my own business, and when I TRIED to find American parts for lenses I needed, I was met with "we don't have that" and "it can't be done". I contacted some overseas vendors and I had my choice of vendors that not only proved it could be done but got it to me FASTER than most american companies can ship. The problem ISN'T with ME not buying american, the problem is with manufacturers not providing what the market needs and being realistic.

Choosing American and putting down all others is as much bigotry and discrimination as putting down blacks/jews etc... They are people over there in Australia as well, and they are trying to feed their families as well. I don't consider any person's life worth more than another because of their location. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but your skin isn't made of 24k gold because you were born American.

NOW, if an American and an Australian put out the same quality product for the same price, I will buy American. I have one American car and one Japanese car, each of them was bought not because of their country of origin but because of their ability to fit my purpose.

If a Chinese company learns to make my product and starts selling it at prices I can't compete with. Sure I will be upset, but I won't be blaming them or people that buy their product. I will either make my product stand out somehow, OR apply my ingenuity to make another product and do something else. Worst case scenario, I can use the bioengineering degree I'm getting and get a job that way. My product has no longer become viable for the market, and it's just the way it is. If I can't put something out that can compete, then its MY fault not the consumers.

To be clear....I'm completely for taking care of our own and keeping it all American. I just do not believe giving handouts is the way to do that. The only way would be to make them/us earn it. Once we earn the business of our own people, then we can actually be self sufficient..... The whole 'teach a man to fish' theory
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

You know, im going to type this long winded post, slightly inebriated.

However, I feel the whole "buy american" thing is a sham. The only places I see this brought up consistently, is here in the firearms realm.

I have a multitude of hobbies that suck up my time, when I'm not practicing my marksmanship at the range.

I snowboard, I skydive, I race sport bikes, I play competative paintball, all while serving in the united states armed forces.


In the snowboarding realm, especially prior to serving, I did a summer stint at Mervin Mfgr'ing in Carlsborg, WA. They make Libtech Snowboards. Their slogan on their boards is "Handcrafted near canada, by mervin manufacturing in the USA". Their boards are top of the line, and the quality really shows, especially since i'm looking at my board I made, sitting right next to my computer desk. If Mervin Mfgr'ing was in canada, it still wouldnt have stopped me from using their products. I love my board, I love the features, I love the quality, and most of all, I love the attention to detail the guys at mervin have. just because it says "made in america" it doesnt give me that vague sense of patriotism that everyone looks for when they buy american.

The same goes with sport bikes. I ride an Aprilia Shiver, and a Aprilia RSV4 Factory APRC SE. Ones my commuter (albeit a sexy commuter) and the other is strictly for racing the track at Miller Motorsports. I also wear Dainese Race leathers, Sidi boots, MotoGP gloves, and a Shark RSR2 helmet. If there was an american company that even came close to competing with italian sport bikes, italian race leathers, and boots, then I'd buy them. Ironically, there isnt. If there was a american company that produced lightweight performance race helmets, then I'd look at those too, but there isnt.

In paintball, I gladly support whatever company produces the best marker that fits my needs. Granted, its a Austrailian made Macdev Clone VX, but if there was a better performing american company, i'm sure I'd buy it.

Moral of the story. If american made companies produced products that exceeded foriegn mfgr's, then I'd buy them. But they dont.

That should be more of a wake up call to american mfgr's. Make better shit, and the folks living within your borders will buy it.

I have no obligation to "buy american" because I fight for everyones rights to do what they want, if they want to buy foreign products, so be it.

If this DBM for rifles is on par, or exceeds the quality of american products, I will buy it too. If they happen to be cheaper, it just makes the pot sweeter.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

People still want to have there cake and eat it too.

Your children will not have as high a standard of living as you.

One of the big reasons is that our buying habits will force them to compete directly with semi-developed countries. The country is sliding down a cliff. To push it back up will take pain and effort.

We have only ourselves to blame
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

First. Thanks for your service. Second. I'm not sure it is a sham.
I wholeheartedly agree that there are superior products in some areas that are made better. We as Americans don't make the best of everything. Although I bet we could.
My point in all this was that I think we could make an effort to by American made products and if we did it might make a difference. ( man this is hard to say what I want with out going political )
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

I'm with Frank on this.

Offshore cheap-chic is precisely the reason why members of my family are out of work and we all have to pool what little we have to get through this economy.

Yes, there's no question my own fortunes have peaked recently, but even so, when all the mouths and roofs are totalled up, even that's not going to last indefinitely.

I like the Diggers as much as most, but like Frank says, it's our families, friends, and neighbors, especially site supporters, who are paying the price for this brand of bargain hunting.

When the hidden cost involves friends and families in need, maybe those bargains aren't so cheap after all.

I just bought two new rifles, Savages; made in USA, no other way for me. For me, this is a huge extravagance given the family's state, and it's where the extravagance has to stop. At least I was able to contribute to the economy and do it with American providers.

Greg
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Well, I can say that I have bought CDI three times now and would do so again, gladly. If Jeff has come down in price to meet the competition, then he surely has done so reluctantly and at some detriment.

To suggest that he is gouging customers or reaping a windfall, is the kind of socialist horse shit I typically encounter in my business dealings, as well what I see as the rampant parasitism that is running amok in our nation today: Most often by those who would become violently offended when told that their own wares or services are vastly over priced and that <span style="font-style: italic">they</span> need a haircut.

I have seen Jeff's work first hand. To say that he is generous with his time and highly skilled is an understatement. The fact that he may have lowered his price to compete with a group buy offered by a non sponsor, skirting the SH rules, is more a cause for worry than one of suspicion.

I feel that the service CDI offers for their DBM, inletting and fitting, and a shockingly quick turn around time, is well worth what he was asking. While I love a bargain as much as anyone, I greatly appreciate how available and approachable Jeff makes himself for his customers and I'm sure he will remain so for the foreseeable future.

As competition enters the market, naturally there is pressure to become more efficient to meet it. It is immature, and often simply nasty, to suggest that someone is needlessly gouging his customers, resting on easy chairs made of cash and using C notes for toilet paper, merely because one wants to buy their product or service for "What it ought to be..."
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

It never ceases to amaze me the blame of our economy on outsourcing and foreign competition. Funny, but the last time I check this was a Capitalist Country, not Socialist. Dictating to others that they must buy Domestic is a Socialist ideal at best.

I got to sit up here in WA and watch when the whole Boeing Tanker issue blew up. It inundated the television with "They're sending our jobs overseas" even though it was still going to be assembled stateside. The <span style="font-weight: bold">FACT</span> is when they placed the bid they tried to charge for retooling a plant that was already retooled from the previous contract. They thought they could pull a fast one and gouge the Tax Payer's for profit then ride the coattails of "Buy American" and the thousands of Union Workers on television crying "Woe is us" even though they're flat out 1/2 the reason why some products cost so much. Detroit is a great example. Maybe companies wouldn't outsource so much if Union would quit trying to bend them over a barrel to pay a factory line worker $30 an hour to push a button or $40 an hour to stupervise the guy pushing the button. In the long run Boeing got their way thanks to Patty Murrey protecting her elected position and stepping in demanding a rebid so they could correct they're own stupidity under the guile's of protecting American jobs.

Instead of blaming every Country who I might add lends us ass tons of money, why not try blaming the real source of our crap economy on our House & Senate who's spending is out of control. Or try blaming it on a society that believes consumer responsibility is someone else problem and never reads the contracts they sign or thinks it's "Unfair" when they agree to a variable rate that then goes up. Or maybe a society that on average is over their head in debt because they fell into the credit trap and spending money they didn't have on the assumption that nothing ever goes wrong and jobs must last forever.

Also... Quit blaming a President, weak or not, for everything. Laws and taxes are passed by the House & Senate, not the President. It's basic Politics 101. All the President can do is veto or approve and they can override his veto. He can't pass anything on his own. Start looking at the real problem rather than trying to cut off the useless tail.

Rant over... lol

 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

"They end up making a great DBM for under $100, so what's that say about good "ole" Badger, CDI, Seekins?? It says they are price gouging the fuck out of the very people that are supporting them."

Thanks,

Dont worry though, i will still send out over 30,000$ worth of product for prize tables and other foundations next year just like we have every year..

edited so things weren't taken out of context or used incorrectly by others.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Fucking AMEN Glen!

I've done a pretty good job and keeping my cool in all of this.

But it down right pissed me off that there are a lot of people who will not make the effort to try to make a difference.

Is it easy for me to try to buy American. Hell no it isn't. Our stores are so over populated by foreign shit that you have to actively search for the American stuff. What used to take me 4-5 hours to shop. To and from town and shopping. ( We live an hour from town ) Now takes most of the day. Is it frustrating to burn a whole day. Yeah it is. But then I think of the families that have the bread winner sitting at home jobless when maybe just maybe he/she could still have a job.

Am I realistic in my approach and belief. Maybe not, maybe I am so fucking way off base in my romantic ideals that this country will get itself our of the overwhelming pile of shit we are in that it doesn't matter. But at least I feel better about trying.

And.. yeah I agree. Every lowlife scum bag politician that is responsible for passing the laws etc. that have affected us and put us where we are should be hung up and made and example of.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...


Glen, first of all I am not trying to disrespect you, But your overhead number needs to be divided buy all your Products not just your DBM. As well as dividing your Overhead Per hour of operation is not correct either.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

RANT ON

Also, Just another note....

I called Badger to buy DBM this week. He said I should call Triad Tactical He did not really have time to take my info. and ship to me.....

It pissed me off so much I have really thought about buying a CNC machine hiring a guy to run it out of his house and sell DBM for 50.00.

The great thing about all this is
" THIS IS AMERICA AND I ABLE TO DO THIS, BECAUSE IT IS AMERICA."

RANT OFF...
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

So tell me whats a realistic profit a guy can expect per hour on 4mil$ worth of equipment? What kind of a net profit should one expect on their sales?

Whats a realistic markup of a product for a wholesaler, distributor, and dealer system?
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Glen,
I just put the first set of your rings on one of my rifles. I can say they will not be the last set. Bravo Zulu Sir. Back to the "Buy American " topic. I buy local for most of my stuff, reloading stuff most get delivered from midway or any other website distributor I buy at a local gun shop I've done business with for the last 20 years. Scopes, SWFA! period. Cost of something is really not relevant. You want a car? Buy a Ford, I don't build just a car, I build a Mercedes Benz. Badgers, Seekins Benz we're all the same. Yes, you can get something that will do. But don't think quality is the same.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

Your realistic profit is what ever you can make......

It does no good to go invest in 4 million dollars of machinery if you can not make a profit...

Take that 4 million and do something else with it.

Just because your overhead is at the level it is, does not mean someone else has to have that same overhead.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...


I would still like someone to answer this question ..

Whats a realistic markup of a product for a wholesaler, distributor, and dealer system?
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

With the business climate changing, I am not sure That having a Wholesaler, distributer, dealer system is the answer.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

It might not be, but right now that's the way most operate and the way it has operated for a good bit of time.

For instance, One large outdoor store that most of us know wont take a product with less than 40% reduction off of MSRP...
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold">good shit tends to sell itself</span></div></div>

Is there really any more that needs to be said?
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

I buy whatever is has the best quality at the best price point.

An anecdote:

My father was an engineer who did building and equipment design who worked for over 30 years building up his company and had great relationships with a lot of the big American companies. (including some of the big American auto companies, who were his main clients) He lost his company about 3-4 years ago because he coulnd't get any work from those "all American" companies any more that he had built up great relationships with throughout the years, because they had all shifted to outsourcing the work to countries like India where they could pay pennies on the dollar for the same work. And most other places were doing the same thing.

My point? A lot of these companies that on the surface seem to be "all American" that everyone always tells people to buy from to "support America" are not so all American themselves any more, and were responsible for Americans losing their jobs because they chose to outsource work instead of supporting Americans themselves.

Just something to think about...

 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

I wonder what it would cost to hire X number people. Add an extra XXX square ft. shop/warehouse and distribute yourself.
What does the wholesaler/distributor add that you couldn't handle yourself with some training?

I'm asking as I don't know the answer
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I buy whatever is has the best quality at the best price point.

An anecdote:

My father was an engineer who did building and equipment design who worked for over 30 years building up his company and had great relationships with a lot of the big American companies. (including some of the big American auto companies, who were his main clients) He lost his company about 3-4 years ago because he coulnd't get any work from those "all American" companies any more that he had built up great relationships with throughout the years, because they had all shifted to outsourcing the work to countries like India where they could pay pennies on the dollar for the same work. And most other places were doing the same thing.

My point? A lot of these companies that on the surface seem to be "all American" that everyone always tells people to buy from to "support America" are not so all American themselves any more, and were responsible for Americans losing their jobs because they chose to outsource work instead of supporting Americans themselves.

Just something to think about...

</div></div>

I hear what you are saying but then what is the answer. I tend to think it goes into a taboo topic here called politics. SO that would end the conversation there. Our given set of "smart people" over on the east coast have made it nearly impossible for a business to thrive here on our soil.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

"I wonder what it would cost to hire X number people. Add an extra XXX square ft. shop/warehouse and distribute yourself.
What does the wholesaler/distributor add that you couldn't handle yourself with some training? "

Its all about the customer base. Think of Midway usa or brownells. How many customers do they have VS a new business? Every day we have customers call or email saying they just found out about us. Its all about marketing and the larger companies like midway or brownells have a much larger money pool to pull from.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

hmmm. The wife and I just took over a large horse operation. We are in the process of reworking and developing a marketing plan yadda yadda.

A few questions we asked ourselves.

Where do people go for info.
Where do people go for products.

We've decided a large part of our marketing budget will go to website overhaul and development.

We have a brilliant individual that has put us at the top of every search engine. We now have the traffic.

just a thought.

That doesn't mean we don't have "agents" across the US.. but our goal is to drive all the traffic eventually to us and only us.
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

It all depends on how big your budget for marketing is. I would imagine that Midway spends more on marketing in a year than we bring in.

Horse operation?? I am looking for a couple horses
smile.gif
 
Re: The recent "BUY AMERICAN" comments here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So much easier an cheaper to make a knockoff, than have an idea of ones own.

Shit, at one time the Russians an Jap's were all most as good as china is today,... but who is still target one? </div></div>

I'm not sure this hold true in the gun industy. Example: 1911's, far to many copies to count, many are better than others, some are far better-the knockoffs have been good for the 1911 market, same can be said of the AR-15 market etc. LL makes a point in an earlier post regarding cheap rings one could buy at Wal-Mart, I've never seen the Aussie product-and know not what metal they are made from etc., but as LL pointed out-for that low a price they are more like the $20 rings-I'll defer to his knowledge regarding these AtlasWorx DBMs. I'd like to see more American firms making things-good for America, good for consumers. I try to buy American when I can, but will not pay far more for same or lesser quality. "Made in America" at one time, increased the odds that you were getting the "best bang for your buck", until those days return, we (America) will continue to see our market share shrink.
 
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