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The single all-around rifle?

G

Graham

Generalissimo
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 30, 2007
49,806
48
Michigan
Gen II Templar, .308 10-twist PSS +1 contour .299 Bartlein with Surefire brake/adapter, Palma Match chamber, 40x trigger, in baby-poop skins with TAB sling; SB PM II LP 4-16x42 CCW single-turn Mil/Mil Gen IIXL in Badger rings:

IMG_2316.jpg


Had a few stability problems the first hundred rounds with Lapua 170HPS at 100 meters, but that appears to have settled down. Here's 300 on the left and 500 on the right - meters that is. Not yet the best shooting rifle I have, but I don't think I can complain about these targets for starters (folded to get into same pic, there are only five shots on each):

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Re: The single all-around rifle?

Thanks. I really like the smoothness of the Gen II: the timing/camming of the one piece bolt, and the primary extraction - smooth, easy and fast.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...smooth, easy and fast.</div></div>

You rang?
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Nice rifle.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

Nice rifle. What range in Michigan can you shoot 300 and 500 meters? I do my shooting at Williams Gun Sight, but I wouldn't mind trying some longer range stuff!
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You rang?
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</div></div>LOL!

Now that you mention it the rifle does bear a resemblance in build to a girl I used to know - without the baby-poop part.
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Re: The single all-around rifle?

Nice stick, but when I saw the post title I was looking for an "all around" rifle that would be useful for more than paper and fixed point sniper use. Would be hell to try a whack a jumped Whitetail up in the Maine woods. (or a jumped raghead for that matter).
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MrDrift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice rifle. What range in Michigan can you shoot 300 and 500 meters?</div></div>http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...374#Post1237374

I think there's also 600 yard range near Livingston, which is closer to you.

BTW - Don't hijack while I'm busy showing off like a 4th-grader.
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Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...when I saw the post title I was looking for an "all around" rifle that would be useful for more than paper and fixed point sniper use.</div></div>It is: Could it be a 300-600 meter Antelope rifle in your neck of the plains? Sure. What about a 100yard Michigan whitetail rifle for hunting from a blind? Why not. How about snap-shooting blacktails on 4x? All day. Multiple engagements at multiple distances using hold-overs and hold-unders at 80-400 yards? Nothing better. How about sitting, kneeling and prone? With the TAB sling it's a walk in the park. Maybe house-clearing and sniper CQB? Not ideal, would prefer a pistol, but it could be made to work.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

If I had to have a single all around rifle that would definately fit the bill!!
Very nice Graham. Mine's a couple grand less on the price scale, in an A5 (never liked pulling out.....I mean my thumb from the thumbhole), just a trued R700 with a good tube and good glass.

<span style="font-size: 8pt">gotta love the hijacking "where do I shoot" and perennial our gang inputs though dontcha??</span>
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...never liked pulling out.....I mean my thumb from the thumbhole</div></div>I don't always use the thumbhole. In fact, on the 2.0, when shooting left-handed I use the male portion of the stock latch as a thumb rest like an Eliseo tube stock.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

I live among Antelope. We are on the primary migration path for Antelope. If these morons in the gun rags would stop writing about Antelope having over the horizon radar, folks in the Mid West and back East would stop thinking the typical shot is 300 yards or more. I can tell you after 40 years of hunting Whitetails in upstate NY and 10 hunting Antelope here, that a good Whitetail buck is a lot harder than a good Antelope buck. Of the 14 Antelope I have taken, 8 could have been taken with my Hasting rifle bbled 870 12 bore deer gun. 4 between 75 and 250 and 2 at 350 +- 5 yards. Virtually, unlike the Whitetail, their only defense is vision. If you use camo & cover it is fairly easy to stalk or ambush them. The O.P.'s rifle would be splendid for the ambush technique or high country Mule Deer (as long as you had a horse).
Just my $.02 but this whole "tactical" thing is being applied where it is unnecessary or may not not the best choice. To make a reach, my Sauer 90 375 H&H is a better all around choice as I can shoot anything from Rock Chucks to Cape Buffalo with it and since it is very accurate, I could put a big hurt on a camel driver with the sub MOA load using the 300 Sierra SPSBT out to 600 with no sweat.

Dont get me wrong, I love fooling around with different stuff
like my Po-Boy Tactical Marlin XL 270 @<$800 as you see it or any of my frightenly accurate Tikka 595s (old model).
DSCN2839.jpg

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Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of the 14 Antelope I have taken, 8 could have been taken with my Hasting rifle bbled 870 12 bore deer gun. 4 between 75 and 250 and 2 at 350 +- 5 yards. Virtually, unlike the Whitetail, their only defense is vision. If you use camo & cover it is fairly easy to stalk or ambush them.</div></div>OK. Sure.

Hi, Jack.
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But I wanted to talk about MY rifle.
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just my $.02 but this whole "tactical" thing is being applied where it is unnecessary or may not not the best choice.</div></div>On Snipershide?
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To make a reach, my Sauer 90 375 H&H is a better all around choice as I can shoot anything from Rock Chucks to Cape Buffalo with it and since it is very accurate, I could put a big hurt on a camel driver with the sub MOA load using the 300 Sierra SPSBT out to 600 with no sweat.</div></div>I'm not sure that .375 H&H would be the better all-around choice.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

Graham,
I want to talk about your rifle.
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What is the barrel length and what is the OAL with the adapter. Are you planning on getting a can for this stick?

Jack
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jackinfl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the barrel length and what is the OAL with the adapter.</div></div>It's an 18.5" barrel, with a 4.185" adapter brake that adds 1.63 inches to the overall length, for just over 20" total length.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would love any feedback you've got on that brake. Pros, cons and dibs on it if you intend to swap for a can later.</div></div>The brake is very effective: lots of blast, so people to the side of me hate it, but very little recoil or jump when behind the rifle - perfect for Scenars at 2775fps. No need to remove it, a Surefire suppressor slips on and clips behind the flange on the back of the brake.

I don't have a suppressor.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally I think an "all around" rifle should weigh 10lbs or less.</div></div> Perhaps. Subtract three pounds for a durable scope, half a pound for durable rings and base, half a pound for a sling, probably two pounds for a Harris Bi-Pod, and if you can find a very light two pound stock you will need a two pound barreled action.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perhaps. Subtract three pounds for a durable scope, half a pound for durable rings and base, half a pound for a sling, probably two pounds for a Harris Bi-Pod, and if you can find a very light two pound stock you will need a two pound barreled action. </div></div>

You can actually get into a good scope for 1lb. 2lbs is easy. 1lb for the bi-pod.

But yeah, it's harder than you'd think to get under 10lbs.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

If you want an "all around rifle" under 10lbs you are looking for something like a Rem 700 Sendero or mountain rifle. The Sendero SF or Varmint Special SF will weigh about 9lbs w/o scope. Put a basic 36 or 40mm objective 1" tube scope on there using a Weaver or Leupold QRW mount and aluminum rings and you will be near 10.25lbs without a loaded magazine.

I suspected we were talking tactical accuracy in this thread. And such a rifle would have a moderate heavy barrel to deliver sustained tactical accuracy, plus a scope to make use of that accuracy at longrange.


My all-around rifle is a .308win chambered AR-10T. I have 150gr bronze points and 180gr Grand Slam bullets loaded in addition to 168gr matchkings. I have A2 and A3 uppers with match barrels. A bit heavy, but accurate. One is setup as a carbine with 18" Schneider barrel. It is about the most versatile for a hiking companion, but the others are more longrange capable.

With light loads and game loads, plus match rounds; the 10T AR-10 will take any game in my area of Alaska. It is all I need.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

I just bought the same surfire brake to put on my 20" Remy SPS. My muzzle diameter is .845", Does anyone know what the muzzle needs to be turned down to in order to install the brake?
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

I've got an Eagle (Armalite) AR-10 with a 22" Lilja barrel in 260 Remington.

It was going to be my "all around" do-everything rifle.

Shoots GREAT, but it's a good 12lbs with an Accu-point and no bipod.

I'll say again, it's surprising how fast the weight adds up.

I've got a Remington 700ti in 260 Remington that won't shoot for squat. I've been toying with having it built up as an "all around" rifle but haven't gotten around to it. Yet.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My muzzle diameter is .845", Does anyone know what the muzzle needs to be turned down to in order to install the brake? </div></div>No more than .775 in diameter.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

gentlemen, if i may:
i believe what your seeking will not be a "tactical rifle" in its pure form
An ALL AROUND RIFLE suggests it will be with you 24/7, yes?

you need to be capable of a fast follow up shot.

the rifle caliber should be sufficient to kill most North American game cleanly.

the caliber should be accurate enough to hit a man sized target out to 500 meters.

unless you plan on sitting home or only carrying it from your car to the range table, it should be light weight.

take this test, hold you rifle in one hand and raise your arm up stright even with your shoulder, hold it there. 30 seconds should not be painful, if it is, its too heavy.

I have carried machine guns in the bush, and light carbines.

the machine guns are heavy, and usually sat on the ground when resting, whereas the carbine is still slung.

my tactical rifles weigh between 13 and 19 pounds, .308s. .300s, 416 remington.

They are all very difficult to shoot off hand very many times, that is not an all around rifle.

the tactical rifle is degigned as a "specialty rifle" not an all around rifle.

An example of an all around rifle is my sako .308 stainless, weighs 8.5 pounds with a loopy 3x9 on it.

another would be my ruger 30/06 with a loopy 4x fixed at 8 pounds.

I realize my posts are not high, but i know a thing or two about the subject.

good day
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

I think you're on the right track with the single all-round rifle. Mine would be a .308 with 18.5" threaded barrel, no brake, 1:10 twist, sitting in a mannersT3, and fed from AW mags. A 3 lug action with 60 degree bolt throw would be preferred. Optics would be a PR 3-15.

Only problem is finding the coin
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

Beautiful rifle...and I agree, a great all-a-rounder
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Looks like you spent the $ and did it right the first time.

How do you like your S&B?

Oh and guys, I think what he means by all-arounder is as follows:

Good at close range (100 yards)
Good to 1000
Could drag behind my truck and still shoot it
Cheap to shoot
Can easily hunt with it
Helluvalot lighter than my 50
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Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iron prowler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...An ALL AROUND RIFLE suggests it will be with you 24/7, yes?...take this test, hold you rifle in one hand and raise your arm up stright even with your shoulder, hold it there. 30 seconds should not be painful, if it is, its too heavy....They are all very difficult to shoot off hand very many times, that is not an all around rifle...the tactical rifle is degigned as a "specialty rifle" not an all around rifle...weighs 8.5 pounds with a loopy 3x9 on it..with a loopy 4x fixed at 8 pounds.</div></div>Let's not drift this thread into a discussion of semantics and about everyone's opinion of the meaning of 'all around'.

Anyone can assert that, for example, the .375 H&H is an 'all around' choice, then conclude that a .375 H&H meets the definition. Conversely, anyone can assert that a tactical rifle a 'specialty' rifle and, by declaring this new category, claim that no tactical rifle is 'all around' because it is instead 'special'. How does either tactic advance the argument?

Many carried Mausers, Lee Enfields, and Garands 24/7. All were acceptable Kit. This rifle is easier, than all of them, to shoot offhand and in position.

A 1" Weaver or 4x Leopold will save weight, of course, but it will also limit the practicality of any rifle enough to disqualify it from any use other than delicate, short range, static, known distance, range work and hunting.

And I never shoot my rifles one-handed after holding them for thirty seconds even with my shoulder. So, why is that an important criteria?

Maybe I should have asked: What will this rifle NOT do that a rifle is supposed to do?
It won't fire in semi-automatic mode. It won't be under ten pounds. It won't shoot .375 H&H.

Rat, I would still take this SB over any other scope available today.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr. Humble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice stick, but when I saw the post title I was looking for an "all around" rifle that would be useful for more than paper and fixed point sniper use. Would be hell to try a whack a jumped Whitetail up in the Maine woods. (or a jumped raghead for that matter).</div></div>

The ignorance is oustanding.

I always have to laugh when some guys complain about a couple pounds on a rifle. If it weighs so god damn much to you, walk a couple miles a week and loose that weight off your ass.

I have handled and shot that rifle, and aside from being .308 (a little poke at you RG
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) its perfect.

Back to the wieght issue, the M700 that our Marines are carrying are not light wight rifles. They carry these fuckers all over the place, 24/7, and they are built basicly the same as all the rifles that you see here, they are emulations of the M40s.

Pussies need 8lbs rifles because the remote control is too light for a suficient work out.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I always have to laugh when some guys complain about a couple pounds on a rifle. If it weighs so god damn much to you, walk a couple miles a week and loose that weight off your ass.

Back to the wieght issue, the M700 that our Marines are carrying are not light wight rifles. They carry these fuckers all over the place, 24/7, and they are built basicly the same as all the rifles that you see here, they are emulations of the M40s.

Pussies need 8lbs rifles because the remote control is too light for a suficient work out. </div></div>

I concur. After spending 4 days humping up and down the hills in Montana last fall after mule deer with a FN SPR fully out fitted at 15.5 pounds, the thought never crossed my mind that I wished I had a different or lighter rifle.

But then many would not call jogging 3-5 miles a day enjoyable either.
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Graham, that is a sweet rifle.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I always have to laugh when some guys complain about a couple pounds on a rifle. If it weighs so god damn much to you, walk a couple miles a week and loose that weight off your ass.</div></div>

Or just take a dump before leaving the house/camp...
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

Thanks for all the local input. Let me turn the question around: why would anyone want a 8-10lb rifle as an all-around rifle?

A friend, a local PD firearms instructor and former Marine, bought this great 'Mountain' rifle - a 6.5lb 300 Ultra Mag. I can see the toupees lift on the three guys on either side of him when he touches that thing off - for the three shots he takes before boxing it up again. Two years ago I leant him my .458 Win Mag dies for his 16" 8lb .458 bolt gun. He hasn't used them yet because he doesn't have enough empty cases to reload.

I can't bring myself to shoot light rifles enough to get sufficiently good with them. They stay in the safe when I go on course. Then they stay in the safe again when I go hunting, because I am better with the rifles I use on course.

In the words of my former CSM, weight is what it takes to get the job done; the actual number is just a reminder that some 'puss' had enough time on his hands to bring his bathroom scale.

I always packed as light as possible: first because I thought I was responsible only for myself; then because I knew that I was also responsibility for others. When my pack 'looks a bit light there, Graham' I ended up with the extra Prick-25 batteries
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and assorted crap that the others didn't have room for and didn't want to carry. That's when I learned that weight is mostly in the mind - and that the rest is somewhere between the shin splint and the top third of the right knee, but not until you've force-marched with it for more distance than I've ever travelled while hunting.
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Re: The single all-around rifle?

If lightweight and the ability to make snap or wing shots [that would be my idea of "all around"] as well as 300 yard precise hits is your thing then either purchase a Steyr Scout or have a Scout custom made on whatever action you choose. You can purchase the Leupold EER optics or go with an Trijicon Accupoint or Aimpoint.

Problem solved.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

An all round rifle should be as such to the many. It should be a jack of all trades, robust, lightweight, easy to operate and maintain, able to be shot accurately from multiple positions by the moderately and highly skilled (and not require a specialized sling to do so). The skill of the operator should not enter into the equation, otherwise just about any modern rifle and scope system could be considered a suitable all-rounder.

Graham, think of it this way, if there was a rifle that could do everything your rifle does or better but weighed 10 pounds or lighter, why would you opt for a heavier system? I think your rifle can do many things well, if that makes it an all-round rifle to you then it is! There are certainly more versatile options in my definition of an all-round rifle.

How about an LTR with a NXS 2.5-10x32 with some basic accurizing done to it. Add accurate reloading and reliable data and you're done. Would I choose the LTR over your setup for prone shooting or traditional sniping...hell no, but as an all rounder it a no brainer. JMHO

Rath
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

Rath,

What you are suggesting is that it's worth trading durability/repeatability for lighter weight. That's your opinion. But I'm with Graham. If I'm limited to one rifle, durability is priority #1, followed by many other things. If it weighs 8 or 15 pounds ranks further down the list.... Like right after what color it is.

-Chris
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...if there was a rifle that could do everything your rifle does or better but weighed 10 pounds or lighter....</div></div>There isn't; that was my point.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would I choose the LTR over your setup for prone shooting or traditional sniping...hell no, but as an all rounder it a no brainer.</div></div>Why do some get the idea that my rifle is a 'prone' or 'fixed position' rifle? What about it gives you that impression?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Like right after what color it is.</div></div>An all-around rifle just HAS to be baby-poop color; it's the new Black.
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Re: The single all-around rifle?

Nice rig Graham.

Pretty much impossible to narrowly define an all-arounder. A lot of variables can go into the considerations made. Use, terrain, weather, etc

My rendition of an all-arounder is something like my 308. Light enough to carry up the hill with ease (about 10 lbs). Heavy enough for easy shootability. Enough scope for 1000 yards on anything visible to the naked eye (2.5-8x36).
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Re: The single all-around rifle?

You show me an LTR or MARLIN or anyother rifle, wieght asides, (cause it doesnt matter to folks whos balls are not in there wifes purse) that will preform better under any circumstance. As Graham stated there isnt one.

With the capability of dialing the S&B down to 4x for close up work/hunting in woods, dial it up for long range shots, there isnt a better combination. there isnt anything on this continent that a .308 wont drop with shot placement. Being a short barrled set up, its handy in and out of the woods and close quaters....whats not to like.

And baby poop is the new black, but I never liked black either...unless Chuck Norris was wearing it.

Opinions quickly change after hands on experiance, mine did anyways.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

Gents,
This is good debate thanks for your input.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rath,
What you are suggesting is that it's worth trading durability/repeatability for lighter weight. That's your opinion. </div></div>

That is most certainly not my opinion. The LTR is a basic example, I'm sure you can see the obvious differences between the LTR and a rifle like Grahams. Obviously there are pros and cons to both setups, I'm simply of the opinion that a rifle like MontanaMarine's is exactly the type that is suited to a multi purpose role. It's simply a better blend of compromises in my opinion.

[/quote]Why do some get the idea that my rifle is a 'prone' or 'fixed position' rifle? What about it gives you that impression?[/quote]

Come on mate, it's not a matter of debate that the AICS is not designed as an ideal setup to shoot offhand or anywhere but from a rest of some kind! It's a great stock...for it's intended purpose.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You show me an LTR or MARLIN or anyother rifle, wieght asides, (cause it doesnt matter to folks whos balls are not in there wifes purse) that will preform better under any circumstance. As Graham stated there isnt one. </div></div>

I disagree, I can think of multiple scenarios where a rifle like MM's would perform better than a heavy AICS stocked rifle. Conversely there are times where Grahams rifle would be better, but to pick just one as an all-rounder...easy choice.

Rath
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My rendition of an all-arounder is something like my 308. Light enough to carry up the hill with ease (about 10 lbs). Heavy enough for easy shootability. Enough scope for 1000 yards on anything visible to the naked eye (2.5-8x36).</div></div>Yeah, I really like that one, too: can tell that a lot of experience went into that choice/setup.

Rath, there's nothing wrong with an accurized LTR, it's just that I think the Gen II Templar/10twist tight-bore is a bit better. The AICS is heavy, but it's not exclusively a prone stock: the handrail feature is nice, as are the ambi sling attachments. And it handles recoil well for multiple shots sitting and standing. The price for durability is weight; and I'll gladly pay it.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

AR-10 T lower with GA Precision 18" mid-length Schneider SS barrel in Badger Ord Stabilizer Handguard with NXS 2.5-10x FC2 reticle, in Mk4 low mounts on a LaRue QD riser with standard A2 buttstock to save weight. Rifle is .308win with match chamber. Has Armalite flip up AR-10 bu sights and Butler Creek neoprene carry sling with detachable buckle & cuff. Sierra handgrip & Badger gen 1 charging latch. Weighs 12lb w/o mag, 12.8 w/10rd mag. About 37" long Can carry by pistol grip, arm down, and clear ground by about 5".

Not first choice for hunting mountain sheep, but it would work.
Not first choice for killing a Brown Bear in the yard or trail, but it would work.
Not quite as "handy" lever carbine, but 168/180gr bullet with longrange accuracy is 10x "better".
Not in same league as my Sako TRG 338/300 for longrange shooting, but the solution is to get closer...
Not a plinker, but with lightweight bullet handloads or cast bullets, it works.


Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle is very much an all-around rifle concept, except for the scout scope idea. I tried a Leupy scout scope on my guide gun and didn't care for the eye relief and bulkiness of the scope. Owned a Steyr-Mannlicher Pro-M in .30-06 for a few years and took deer with it. Nice rifle. Was never motivated to own or shoot a Steyr Scout rifle.

Armalite semi-auto design has eclipsed the bolt rifle, (except for magnums), for many reasons; accuracy, no bolt to flick, 10-30rd magazine, no action to bed to a stock, integral pic rail or match iron sights, less recoil, shorter oal...

If you don't live where dangerous animals might maul you, then consider a 20" precision AR-15 with 77gr ammunition as an all-around rifle. Lots of game taken with 85gr bullets in 6mm caliber, and lots of game taken with slower moving .30-30 150gr rounds. I have recovered 75gr .224 hornady bthp match bullets from my rock backstop and some bent like pretzels, but all stayed together. Break a leg or shoulder and your game is down or trackable. Not first choice for hunting game, but if regulations allow .22cal highpower in your state maybe try the 60gr Nosler for deer or antelope? Can carry 2x the ammunition and if you are in a survival situation, hunting becomes an entirely different equation. Get's the weight down from an AR-10 by about 2lbs. Get a 1:6.5 twist barrel and shoot 90gr Sierra or JLK bullets, single loaded, but they work. (See link below for details on how the JLK 90gr .224 bullet delivers 2.5" vertical spread at 1000 yds in 15-20rd groups!)
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cach...da&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=us&client=firefox-a


Not like I'm saying a 20" Service Rifle will shoot 20rd 2.5" vertical spread groups at 1000yds, but if you have the barrel twist and the ammunition, you have some pretense for taking the shot. What else is an "all-around rifle" unless it can do almost anything you might require?
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

Semis are nice for when you need the rate of fire, and they are reasonably light. But I hate cleaning them, I hate smashing the bullet tips and setting back the shoulder of the cases when the bolt drops, and I don't like being limited to faster burning powders. That, and broken bolts and pierced primers. But they do have their place, and function properly when better quality ammunition is available.

But the .223 isn't an all-around cartridge, and if it was, it would be so only in a bolt gun.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rath</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HasgunWilltravel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You show me an LTR or MARLIN or anyother rifle, wieght asides, (cause it doesnt matter to folks whos balls are not in there wifes purse) that will preform better under any circumstance. As Graham stated there isnt one. </div></div>

I disagree, I can think of multiple scenarios where a rifle like MM's would perform better than a heavy AICS stocked rifle. Conversely there are times where Grahams rifle would be better, but to pick just one as an all-rounder...easy choice.

Rath</div></div>

MontanaMarines rifle aside, I like the rifle, looks like a great set up. I was not disparaging Shanes stick at all, it looks like a perfect mountain gun.

As stated by yourself, the AICS does leave some to be desired, for some. I personally love mine, but the wieght is of no concern. I take no issues with mine shooting off hand, slung up.

It basicly comes down to personal preferance, all around for one, isnt for everyone, wich is clearly what the conversation has turned into.

There will never be a diffinitive answer..
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

Each to their own, but since all I load for the .223rem is 75/77gr magazine length loads, and I have seen how tough the bullets are, I would stake my life on using my AR-15 as an all-around rifle. Also have several hundred 90gr bullets to load up and carry for those "situations of opportunity", and I have an NEI mold that casts a 72gr flat point bullet.

How much in the "all-around" book relates to adapting to the situation presented? If you were armed with a .223 and were presented with a shot on a moose; if you needed the meat, would you fail to take it? Moose are not terribly skittish. Can you fire several rounds before the moose realizes it is hit? With a precision AR-15 you could.

I have a Rem 700 LA in a H-S Precision Tactical stock w/adj lop and saddle-type cheek riser. The barrel is a Shilen 1:11 match and it is reamed for .308 Ackley Improved, 22", about a #9 barrel contour. With a 10x Leupold mk4 m3, it is a fine Practical/Tactical Rifle; and is a great all-around piece to carry at about 13lbs.

Have a .300win Sendero SF, with factory barrel setup for min oal chamber. Very accurate and light. at under 12lbs w/another Mk4 fixed scope.

Yet, for all-around use; nothing beats the AR-10 or a 15. A 6.5mm Grendel would probably be just superb; but I passed on one about 3mos ago because brass & bullets were so unavailable. I already have a longrange HighPower upper for my 10 in what is basically a .001 extended 6mmXC. Loaded with 107gr matchkings, there is an all around rifle...

Firing pins break in bolt-actions and semis. Nothing is easier to work on in the field than an AR. Just carry a complete bolt group if it worries you. With a vise, an armorers wrench and action block you can do anything any gunsmith can short of major barrel work. Parts are cheap.

The AR-15 works for anti-personnel service. It can bring home the meat as well, if need be. Cooper figured the Scout Rifle was the perfect all-around weapon. I will take a precision AR in either .223 or .308 and not worry about being "undergunned". I am not looking for Brown Bear encounters, but do need to be able to hit whatever I choose to take with speed and accuracy.

What are the circumstances of your carrying an "all-around" rifle? Not expecting that longrange sniping situation, so you don't have that 17lb longrange boltgun. Not really expecting anything specific, but you want to be adequately armed. Probably most important to be able to respond swiftly with accuracy and power. The .308 AR-10 loaded with a 20rd mag of 180gr Grand Slams works for me in Brown Bear country. Why wouldn't an AR-15 loaded w/30rds of 77gr matchkings serve your needs in deer and black bear territory? After all, you aren't actively hunting are you? Just need to be ready to respond or take a game animal of opportunity. Plenty of deer been killed with 40gr .22lr and 85gr .243s. 77gr .223 will work fine if you place your shot correctly, and your rifle is setup for precision shot placement, so why would you gut-shoot or only maim your target?
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

Montana Marine just likes showing off his AO to us city dwellers!

Actually, Shane's rifle is a good all arounder, but I'd have to go all the way around it to get to that bolt on the wrong side.
 
Re: The single all-around rifle?

To tell the truth, I sometimes carry the 15 lb 30-06 up the hill too. After a few minutes, the weight of it doesn't really seem to make a big difference. It's kinda like the brain registers it, and then my mind goes elswhere. But, being in reasonably good physical shape is likely a factor in that.
 
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