The world of .308 ARs - hesitant to jump in...

[Dave3006]

I have 6 Stag Arms .223/5.56 AR15 rifles. They have been 100% reliable since the day I bought them 6 years ago. With good ammo, good mags, and proper lube - they just work. I use them for 3 gun and coyote hunting. They would be the first thing I grab during SHTF.

I have Winchester Model 70s in 30-06 for hunting larger animals. I never quite warmed up to bolt actions. I would love to replace the Model 70s with a .308 AR for hunting deer, hogs, and elk.

However, My recent research into the world of .308 ARs leaves me extremely hesitant to dive in. It seems like every sub $2000 gun that is light enough to hunt with has serious issues. The M&P10 is undergassed. The G2s look the most promising. But, I read that they don't lock back on Magpul mags, crater primers, and have problem with surplus 7.62 ammo. Heck, last time I was at my local gun store, there was even a guy there trying to figure out why his .308 Larue wouldn't work.

I like reliable weapons. And, I would be horrified to spend $3K+ (gun, ammo, mags, ect...) only to be forced to tinker with a gun that is a problem. I know there is no official standard for .308 ARs. Maybe that is the problem.

Anyone else have the same concerns?

 

[chooter]

Have an Armalite A-10 in 308 and 260 Remington. Both have run flawlessly. Only downside is they use their own propriterity (sp?) magazines that are a little pricey.

 

[jaycoux]

I have had no problems with larue 7.62 OBR and PredatOBR UNTIL I tried to shoot them suppressed. If you plan on shooting without a suppressor I would recommend a Larue.

If you want to run suppressed alot of the time I would suggest a SCAR 17.

 

[cal50]

My SIG 716 has been flawless out of the box.

 

[gumby510]

I'd go scar 17 or fal. After my success with my sig556 my co-worker picked up a Sig 716 and had a few issues with it and after a few warranty trips its good now. It seems the ar10 market is hit or miss with being mostly miss.

 

[Dave3006]

Interesting. The above posts (Sig 716) are consistent with what I have been reading with just about all .308 ARs. One person has great luck. The other has problems.

The FAL is heavy and hard to scope. My other go-to guns are the AR platform. So, I wanted to stick with the same platform.

 

[Masked]

I love my SASS...

Really really really want a SCAR but, unfortunately, my state sucks balls.

I love the 308/7.62 platform, personally -- Much more than the AR15!

 

[JoshcBoucher]

I have a DPMS SASS that runs on anything, has no problems, and is pretty accurate. It's a few years old. Not bad for a "cheap" 308. But it is heavy for this older guy, though I wouldn't mind banging it around for a hunting gun once in a while. My GAP was finicky until I figured out what it liked, now it's fine. Just read an article on the new Ruger. The writer loved it. Good luck.

 

[MBC223]

I run a 16" Ar-10t and love it. 8 pounds bare and shoots sub minute to 600 yards with hand loads and m118lr.

 

[rg1911]

I only have about three hundred rounds through my AR-10 in .260 Rem built using Armalite parts, Krieger barrel, etc. Once I switched to an SLR Rifleworks adjustable gas block, it's been reliable with and without suppressor.

I'm currently dialing-in a .308 upper assembly that was recently completed.

Richard

 

[Trespasser]

I would bet that a late model SR-25 will be more reliable than a Stag AR15. Problem is the price tag that goes along with it.

 

[Expert684]

I have two "other" 308 AR 's. They have had problems. Took some work now they run fine. Just bought a SR 7.62 Ruger. Round count is low, zero, I mean zero problems. Shoots 2" groups at 200 yards with hand loads, stock trigger and 1-4 optics. I'd like to pig hunt with mine if I get the chance.

 

[Desert_Racer]

Between my SCAR-17 and my Krieger barreled Maten build, my SCAR is my favorite .308 rifle I own by far. I had an M1A in a Troy chassis as well that really didn't do it for me so I ended up selling it. I'll be sticking with the SCAR-17 forever and I highly recommend it. It has never had a malfunction of any kind, is very light, and pretty damn accurate to boot. It is a very capable weapons system.

So far, I have around 1000 rounds through it of M80 ball and 175gr Match ammo from both Federal and Nosler and it has eaten all of it and shot it all pretty well. Worth all $2650 I paid for mine (plus the aftermarket stuff I threw on it that made it even better). Do yourself a favor and at least shoot one before you make any choices and swipe your plastic.

 

[BCP]

I'd get one of the armalite pencil barreled 16" ones that uses their old style metal mags. Then find a deal on an armalite free float tube and a different stock. Probably wouldn't be super accurate but more than good enough for hunting and it would be light weight.

 

[fmsniper]

I have used M21, s SASS M110, SR25, Issued guns. I Own FAL DSA, AR DPMS 308, 260, and 7mm08, My favorite rifle of all is My Scar17. My fal is 1 MOA -1.5. My others are all sub MOA, My Scar is Sub MOA, to this day I have never had an issue with my Scar, not even a last round not locking back on modified FAL mags. I understand you are looking at $2000 and below but save and get the Scar. I taught another long range class this weekend, the last one before I deploy, I had student running a Mega arms build with Krieger barrel 18 inch, he produced a 4.7 inch 3 shot at 1000 yards with 175 grain ammo, but his next group opened to 11 inches, even so, great platform.

1000 yard target


FAL can be set up for hunting but weighs more

Scar is perfect in size and weight

 

[Dave3006]

That SCAR is nice. I had read that they are hard on scopes. Is there any truth to that?

I really had not considered the FN-FAL. Is the scope mount solid?

Which would you consider more reliable - the SCAR or the FAL?

 

[fmsniper]

Scope abuse is a myth, never had any issue nor my friends or troops with a quality scope

scope DSA mount is solid on the FAL, Scar is more reliable, I have to adjust the FAL to lock back with different ammo, Scar eats anything I put in it.

Not only is the Scar more reliable, but more accurate and lighter
good forum for scars
http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-scar-17s/

 

[cal50]

Interesting. The above posts (Sig 716) are consistent with what I have been reading with just about all .308 ARs. One person has great luck. The other has problems.
.

SIG has made some changes to the 716 since its inception and its a solid gas piston drive rifle using the available everywhere ( for now ) Pmags.
The FAL is also a solid rifle and well proven. The FN SCAR would be my last choice because of proprietary magazines and horrible customer service and magazine availability from FN in the past.

Pick a company that is well off and larger enough that they will be around a while and supports its products.

 

[fmsniper]

SIG has made some changes to the 716 since its inception and its a solid gas piston drive rifle using the available everywhere ( for now ) Pmags.
The FAL is also a solid rifle and well proven. The FN SCAR would be my last choice because of proprietary magazines and horrible customer service and magazine availability from FN in the past.

Pick a company that is well off and larger enough that they will be around a while and supports its products.

Scar mags are now available and not overly expensive, Military surplus will be coming soon I would imagine after AFG is shut down.

Jim Briggs Stryker Ind. has a New lower coming out that takes PMAGS not like the CAV Arms or others that got them on the market fast with issues, Jim has worked hs to death with scrutiny.

But like I said, no issue getting mags
even midway has them
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2196145389/fnh-magazine-fn-scar-17s-308-winchester-steel

 

[diverdon]

You need the Elfster to chime in and tell you about his Rock River. They shoot, you do not need a second mortgage.

 

[cal50]

Scar mags are now available and not overly expensive, Military surplus will be coming soon I would imagine after AFG is shut down.

Jim Briggs Stryker Ind. has a New lower coming out that takes PMAGS not like the CAV Arms or others that got them on the market fast with issues, Jim has worked hs to death with scrutiny.

But like I said, no issue getting mags
even midway has them
FNH Mag FN SCAR 17s 308 Winchester Steel

All good options IF you go with the SCAR platform.

Personally I have little trust in FN for supplying magazines based on their crappy track record. Of the two FN firearms I have owned ( FNP-45 & FN-SPR currently ) both were horrible to obtain working magazines for.
The 10 shot SPR-DBM never did appear and the factory 5 shot mags were scarce. The FNP had worse magazine availability and they quickly dropped the model and did a redesign.


The G3,FAL, SIG 716, M1A, POF, etc. or a host of direct gas rifles if you prefer are all excellent or the SCAR if that floats your boat.

 

[Cobracutter]

Scope abuse is a myth, never had any issue nor my friends or troops with a quality scope

scope DSA mount is solid on the FAL, Scar is more reliable, I have to adjust the FAL to lock back with different ammo, Scar eats anything I put in it.

Not only is the Scar more reliable, but more accurate and lighter
good forum for scars
FN SCAR 17S

Its not a myth. Its proven fact and there have been and are current PIP's working to fix this issue.

Cheap optics are the problem. Older style eotechs, non harded electro/optical devices, lasers all had to be redesigned.

The SCAR has a VERY sharp recoil impulse that not only damages optics, but shoots itself apart over long and heavy use (usualy on FA).

With that being said, the SCAR17 is without a doubt, the finest Battle rifle ever made. It's a modern engineering marvel. Light, low recoil, stupid reliable, accurate and great ergonomics all in one package.

Since anyone here will never be running 10's of thousands of rounds through MK17 on FA and rapid fire (atleast not on their dime), its a non issue. Stay away from junk optics like vortex or other bargain brands. NF is what a SCAR17 wants anyway......no need to turn a light gun into a pig.

Just make sure you use quality optics. XPS / EXPS Eotechs were created beacuse the SCAR destroyed the 5XX eotechs. Some lasers and lights were also redesigned to harden the electronics.

OP,

Without getting into a long drawn out explanation that will piss off half the membership, there are really only two Semi .308 guns to look at. The SCAR and the SR-25 (well maybe the MWS if you want a pig).....As long as you are sticking with .308. If you want to go with something like 6CM,6.5,.260 ect.... get a GAP or a JP.

 

[fmsniper]

Like I said, a Quality optic will have no problem, My team has lost eotechs on m4s, eotech to me is not a quality optic, I use to hear the same thing about m21's/M14/s never lost an optic on my issue M21, I ran Mk4's and Nimrods on it. No one I no on any ODA or Civilian has lost a quality optic on a Scar. Cheap optics are cheap optics, I have dropped 3 reticles on bolt guns with Cheap scopes, you get what you pay for. The myth of Scar eating scopes Is misleading, any rifle with a recoil pulse will destroy a crap scope, yes the scar has a hard forward slap, but it does not eat (Quality scopes)

 

[cal50]

The myth of Scar eating scopes Is misleading, any rifle with a recoil pulse will destroy a crap scope, yes the scar has a hard forward slap, but it does not eat (Quality scopes)

Spring piston airguns have a reputation for damaging lesser quality optics and its pretty much a given fact.

.50 BMG rifles with clam shell, arrowhead & efficient muzzle brakes were damaging optics due to the reversal of G force from rear to forward in milliseconds, early scope seals were not designed for two directions of force.

The SCAR may or may not have the same effect going on. I am sure someone has wired accelerometers up to a SCAR and fired it and knows the recoil impulse, dwell time and any reversal of force.


Buy a quality optic and IF it fails send it back for hopefully a warranty repair.
I put a efficient muzzle brake on my SIG 716 and it REALLY dropped the recoil by a large amount. Its also loud as hell but stays on target better.
My ACOG TA-11 is likely getting more of a workout and if it pukes back to Trijicon it goes.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I was faced with the same issue not long ago myself, between wait times and iffy range feedback on all of them, I was scratching my head as well. After a little research, I picked one of these up from Marc at Spartan Precision Rifles. Had it in hand in about 4 weeks from time of order and had him add the folding butt stock as well. No issues with ammo or anything else,It just works. I couldn't be happier with it and how quick I got it.

Spartan Precision Rifles | AR308

 

[fmsniper]

to get back on track for the OP

I hunt with the Scar and a AR in 6.5 grendel

you could purchase a mega arms AR 308 or get Mega parts, a select barrel, say Bartlin, Geissele trigger an build one to your liking?

Most of the time when a AR10 of any company has issues it needs to break in, springs are stiff parts are tight.

if you own a AR Stag like you said, you can drop a 6.5 Grendel upper on it, and hunt every thing you talked about, though Elk is a little large for a grendel( I know it has been done) but I would run at least a 308 for Elk.

 

[Dave3006]

Thanks Fmsniper. That is actually one of the options - 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. It seems like a person could hunt about everything but elk with these two. If I go this route, I really should learn to reload. Ammo is expensive.

 

[-Nick-]

Hmmm... SR25 EC weighs 10.2lbs... LMT MWS weighs 9.98lbs... But the MWS is a "pig"?

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Dave,

Avoid exotic/boutique calibers for your stated purpose.

Based on your needs/budgetary constraints, i would go with the new DPMS GII rifles. Specifically, the Hunter model with a 20" barrel that weighs under 8lbs.

It offers the best balance of weight, compactness, and ballistic performance of the options available to you.

Your concerns about the magazines is not limited to the DPMS offerings. The latest generation of Magpul magazines cause failure to lock-back issues in other rifles as well (as i 've read on arfcom, m4carbine, etc). There are plenty of metal magazines and older style magpul magazines available at a reasonable cost that will obviate this issue.

If you reload, you will prefer the metal mags to the magpul magazines as they allow you to load to a longer COAL(where your best accuracy may be anyway).

I dont know what to make of the reports of cratered primers. The primers i've seen are not pierced (exposing the anvil), and those with this occurrence do not indicate a build-up of crud in their bolt...it would therefore seem to not be an issue if it were my rifle. In any event, the rifles are still under warranty, and it would be wise to see what the Manf is doing about it.

ANyway, for your intended purposes and budget, at $1,200 the DPMS GII seems to be the obvious choice here.

 

[Dave3006]

TX - thanks. I actually just came to the same conclusion. The G2 Hunter would allow me to hunt with the same platform I do everything else with and the 20" barrel would make it almost equivalent to my 30-06 Winchester 70 that I will be selling. The primer issue is not a big deal. And, I could even live with mags that don't lock back. I am sure Magpul will fix that in the future.

I just need to do more research into how reliable the new G2s are. I hate finicky guns. I had a Bushmaster AR15 15 years ago that did nothing but short stroke. Drove me crazy.

 

[Skeld1]

So far there doesn't seem to be a lot of information out there about the reliability of the G2.

 

[rakiura]

Have had no problems with my Armalite AR10, very accurate with factory ammo, reliable and just works

 

[GhostFace]

All my Armalites just flat out run and are great shooters, very accurate and will rival any "gucci" rifle. May not be as accurate as some of the "gucci" rifles but you are only talking fractions of MOA differences. Mine is stupid reliable with the can on or off, I can run it dry up to a point, IIRC close to 500 rounds dry and suppressed until I started getting malfunctions. They are dry underrated rifles simply because of the magazines and they have not been really marketed (is that a word? Lol) well...

 

[Rust]

I have an inch pattern FN (L1A1) that I got many years ago. Reliable, I like the op rod system and adjustable gas port. Never had or seen a scope mounting system I'd call rock solid, period.

Have a couple of older production DPMS shorty AR-10 clones in .308, one set up with optics and one set up with irons. Both run fine and have had no trouble with the 20 or 5 round DPMS mags. I've left them stock. They are reasonably accurate, hanging about 1.0 - 1.5 moa with handloads and bullets in the 150 gr range. I don't get stupid with hot loads or heavy bullets which in my experience leads to a lot of functional failures over time. Now I can't say that current production, since the Luth brothers sold out to Remington and production was moved from St. Cloud, Minnesota will produce the same results.

These are basically battle rifles, with generous clearances. If I wanted match accuracy I'd get a match rifle. JP makes some nice ones but never confuse a match/competition rifle with a service rifle. Not the same, not meant to be the same.

Myself, I prefer that and AR-15 or AR-10 be chambered in what it was originally designed for, that is .223 or .308 respectively. Things just seem to work better that way.

On a final note, I load with stick powders. Ball powders seem to have more deterrent coating and this tends to gum up the works faster.

 

[Birddog6424]

So far there doesn't seem to be a lot of information out there about the reliability of the G2.

I have the new GII SASS. So far I am about 700 rounds in without one single malfunction of any type. Using PMags pretty much exclusively.

Shooting the long range bonus section of the Ironman 3 Gun last week, my buddies $3500 JP completely crashed. Myself and another squad mate used my rifle and picked up our 3 hits each at 550, 720, and 900 yards without issue. All 9 hits for bonus.

So far I am seeing about a .6 to .5 MoA. Still working on the right load.

It's a good rifle. Time will tell if it is a potentially great rifle. But so far so good.

 

[elfster1234]

im seriously kicking around the idea of getting the g2 sass

I have the new GII SASS. So far I am about 700 rounds in without one single malfunction of any type. Using PMags pretty much exclusively.

Shooting the long range bonus section of the Ironman 3 Gun last week, my buddies $3500 JP completely crashed. Myself and another squad mate used my rifle and picked up our 3 hits each at 550, 720, and 900 yards without issue. All 9 hits for bonus.

So far I am seeing about a .6 to .5 MoA. Still working on the right load.

It's a good rifle. Time will tell if it is a potentially great rifle. But so far so good.

 

[Skeld1]

I have the new GII SASS. So far I am about 700 rounds in without one single malfunction of any type. Using PMags pretty much exclusively.

Shooting the long range bonus section of the Ironman 3 Gun last week, my buddies $3500 JP completely crashed. Myself and another squad mate used my rifle and picked up our 3 hits each at 550, 720, and 900 yards without issue. All 9 hits for bonus.

So far I am seeing about a .6 to .5 MoA. Still working on the right load.

It's a good rifle. Time will tell if it is a potentially great rifle. But so far so good.

Good to hear. I'm waiting to sell my Gen. I Recon to try out a Gen. II. Probably an AP4 changed to a free float tube with a 1-4 on top...a Battle Rifle type gun though, not so much a precision gun like what you are running.

 

[DavidAR10]

ARMALITE A10TBNF

You can even use bent-wrist pMags!!!

_______________________________

Do I need to bring up the piss-poor, half-assed, backwards engineering of the "others" firing pin hole?

Thought naught.

 

[Fenix Mike]

IVe had 3 Sig 716s, all were flawless on all ammo and even suppressed, but they didnt like 175 FGGM and blew out primers, Armalite SASS was a tank and performed flawlessly, Scar 17 was great... You would be hard pressed to find many flaws with any of the Armalite rifles and im sure one of the light 308s would do well. The Sig is a bit heavier, but very accurate and a blast to shoot suppressed with all the different gas positions.

 

[deerhunter70]

I like my RR Lar8 Predator and my Scar 17. The RR has accounted for a good number of dead animals, mainly moose. I have a Leupold Mark 4 on both. The Scar hasn't seen a moose season yet but it will. I had a Acog on the Scar when I first got it but since the eye relief was a little small and it was calibrated for 5.56 I didn't feel bad putting it back on the AR.

 

[MajorHeadTrauma]

Great thread

 

[TravisP]

Was wanting a semi 308 in ar style myself. Just could not pull the trigger because of the cost of the rifle as well as the weight. I getting older and just tired if wagging around heavier rifles. Studied for quite awhile and came to the conclusion that i was going to stick with ar 15 size and not ar 10. I hunt coyote and deer, no elk for me so i can understand wanting the 308 but i went with the 6.8 spc 2. Its lightweight accurate and way more affordable. I hear its hell on the hogs as well. Not as powerful as the 308 but gets the job done for me.

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