Night Vision Thermal and night vision...am I on the correct path?

[BlkSC]

Hello, all, long time lurker, first time poster. I started a deep dive into night vision with the intent of buying binos but, after a lot of reading, I'm leaning more towards helmet mounted night vision and thermal. I have zero experience with night vision and the only experience I have with thermal is using the Flir thermal camera at work to look for hot spots in electrical equipment.

The purpose...I wouldn't say I have an explicit purpose at this moment. I'm working on getting a place where I can shoot at night so it's a skill that I'd like to start working on.

My budget is somewhat flexible, $15k-$20k, and I'm looking for a good compromise of "Buy once, cry once" and "Bang for the buck". After all my reading, I think the best solution is an un-filmed white phosphor L3Harris PVS-14 and a NOX 18 thermal. I know of a used NOX 35 for sale for a good price but, from my research, I don't think it will work as well helmet mounted with a PVS-14.

I haven't done research on helmets or IR lasers yet, that is next on my list after I nail the night vision and thermal down.

So what do you guys think? Is this a good option to get started?

 

[LawTalker]

Hello, all, long time lurker, first time poster. I started a deep dive into night vision with the intent of buying binos but, after a lot of reading, I'm leaning more towards helmet mounted night vision and thermal. I have zero experience with night vision and the only experience I have with thermal is using the Flir thermal camera at work to look for hot spots in electrical equipment.

The purpose...I wouldn't say I have an explicit purpose at this moment. I'm working on getting a place where I can shoot at night so it's a skill that I'd like to start working on.

My budget is somewhat flexible, $15k-$20k, and I'm looking for a good compromise of "Buy once, cry once" and "Bang for the buck". After all my reading, I think the best solution is an un-filmed white phosphor L3Harris PVS-14 and a NOX 18 thermal. I know of a used NOX 35 for sale for a good price but, from my research, I don't think it will work as well helmet mounted with a PVS-14.

I haven't done research on helmets or IR lasers yet, that is next on my list after I nail the night vision and thermal down.

So what do you guys think? Is this a good option to get started?

If you're about to spend that sort of money then you definitely want to go to a night vision course where they let you try equipment and get an idea/feel for it.

It would also help if you developed/contemplated some idea as to what you want this night vision equipment for and how you intend to run it. If you're going with a helmet mounted PVS-14 then you're probably going to want an IR device on your rifle.

TRY BEFORE YOU BUY Archives

tnvc.com

 

[wigwamitus]

14 and nox18 good general choices.

Nox18 can go on a wpn as a TWS (not a clipon) and get out to 300yds on yotes (on 4x digital).

Next step up pixels on target voodoo-s which doubles as a good clipon.

 

[CajunReebox]

Hello, all, long time lurker, first time poster. I started a deep dive into night vision with the intent of buying binos but, after a lot of reading, I'm leaning more towards helmet mounted night vision and thermal. I have zero experience with night vision and the only experience I have with thermal is using the Flir thermal camera at work to look for hot spots in electrical equipment.

The purpose...I wouldn't say I have an explicit purpose at this moment. I'm working on getting a place where I can shoot at night so it's a skill that I'd like to start working on.

My budget is somewhat flexible, $15k-$20k, and I'm looking for a good compromise of "Buy once, cry once" and "Bang for the buck". After all my reading, I think the best solution is an un-filmed white phosphor L3Harris PVS-14 and a NOX 18 thermal. I know of a used NOX 35 for sale for a good price but, from my research, I don't think it will work as well helmet mounted with a PVS-14.

I haven't done research on helmets or IR lasers yet, that is next on my list after I nail the night vision and thermal down.

So what do you guys think? Is this a good option to get started?

I started down this journey about two years ago. I read the forums here, watched you tube videos and I really struggled with the thermal vs NV vs fusion. I ended up making the decision to go with NVG and received them last week. Ultimately, the reason I settled on NV is the thermal market (my perception) seems to be progressing pretty quickly. Seems to me more companies are trying to fill the gap between the $3-$5k market and the $15k+ market. I just did not want to spend the $$ on the high end thermal today and possibly have better options in a year or two. Whereas, the NV market seems to be pretty stable. My hearts desire was actually a true fusion device, which I think is the future, but other than the Jerry FB, there was nothing within my budget. after researching the Chyna fusion, I decided it wasn’t for me. I did research the bridged NV/thermal and again NV seemed a better fit for me. When my NV came in last week and I put them on for the first time, I felt I had made the right decision. after I financially recover, I plan on purchasing a budget friendly thermal hm/clip on monocular. I was really interested in the Armasight Sidekick, but I cannot seem to get a feel for how it’s been accepted by the thermal community. There are not any bad reviews, but not a lot of really homerun reviews either. I do think we will see more companies like Armasight that will try to fill that gap mentioned above.

 

[wigwamitus]

FYI. the only 2 dual-purpose HMT/clipon thermals that really seem to get close to the goal of doing both are the RH25 and the Voodoo-S. With the voodoo-S being a better clipon, but at about 3 times the price (for a military grade unit).

... not any bad reviews, but not a lot of really homerun reviews either ...

As to the sidekick, I think that about sums it up ! Its considerably better than the breach, but not up to the Nox18. And it takes more "fiddling" with the controls to optimize the image. So not "bad" especially for the money, but not a "homerun" either ... i.e. not a nox for half the price or a skeet for a quarter of the price. But a solid breach beater for about $200 more than the breach MSRP. So (the 640 sidekick) could be called "the 640 breach", we've been hollering for, for eons. And with manual focus up front, hugely solves the lack thereof for the actual 320 breach, which got real fuzzy real fast over 75yds.

I also think you're right about the NV market being more "Stable" than thermal, at least at the moment.

Nox-35 has limited use as helmet mounted thermal, especially in more open terrain like typically found out West, but for general HMT use, a 1x unit is definitely preferred. IMHO the N35 is also phenomenal on 4x digital. Often we think "4x digital sucks, its too fuzzy". But in my experience, the n35 is an exception and is the clearest 4x digital I ever did see, I consider it to be totally useable not just to shooting but also PID on 4x digital and that gives us 10x net with the n35 ... and for a unit that small, that's worth something, depending on your use cases !!

I have 1 nox18 and planned to get a second, but I can't decide whether an N35 would be better as a second unit. I also want to get a second clipon (have an M already). The voodooS does both, so right now, that's what I'm saving for. But I don't have to finally decide till I pull the trigger.

 

[CajunReebox]

FYI. the only 2 dual-purpose HMT/clipon thermals that really seem to get close to the goal of doing both are the RH25 and the Voodoo-S. With the voodoo-S being a better clipon, but at about 3 times the price (for a military grade unit).


As to the sidekick, I think that about sums it up ! Its considerably better than the breach, but not up to the Nox18. And it takes more "fiddling" with the controls to optimize the image. So not "bad" especially for the money, but not a "homerun" either ... i.e. not a nox for half the price or a skeet for a quarter of the price. But a solid breach beater for about $200 more than the breach MSRP. So (the 640 sidekick) could be called "the 640 breach", we've been hollering for, for eons. And with manual focus up front, hugely solves the lack thereof for the actual 320 breach, which got real fuzzy real fast over 75yds.

I also think you're right about the NV market being more "Stable" than thermal, at least at the moment.

Nox-35 has limited use as helmet mounted thermal, especially in more open terrain like typically found out West, but for general HMT use, a 1x unit is definitely preferred. IMHO the N35 is also phenomenal on 4x digital. Often we think "4x digital sucks, its too fuzzy". But in my experience, the n35 is an exception and is the clearest 4x digital I ever did see, I consider it to be totally useable not just to shooting but also PID on 4x digital and that gives us 10x net with the n35 ... and for a unit that small, that's worth something, depending on your use cases !!

I have 1 nox18 and planned to get a second, but I can't decide whether an N35 would be better as a second unit. I also want to get a second clipon (have an M already). The voodooS does both, so right now, that's what I'm saving for. But I don't have to finally decide till I pull the trigger.

@Wigwam I followed your expertise on the thermal threads and particularly paid attention to your comments in the sidekick. Do you think in a year or so we could possibly see someone release something that fills the gap? Not necessarily a voodoo type of quality for $5K, but something that has a little give and take between the high end and budget friendly markets? Maybe something similar to an American made RH25 for a few dollars less? That’s what I’m holding out for.

 

[BlkSC]

If you're about to spend that sort of money then you definitely want to go to a night vision course where they let you try equipment and get an idea/feel for it.

I have considered this and haven't completely ruled it out yet. Unfortunately, work is going to be ridiculous this year with turnarounds, projects, etc., so I wouldn't be able to do something like that until next year. My logic (and it could be wrong) is that if I were to buy IR and thermal now, even if it isn't the end all, be all setup, I could start "playing" with it now.

It would also help if you developed/contemplated some idea as to what you want this night vision equipment for and how you intend to run it. If you're going with a helmet mounted PVS-14 then you're probably going to want an IR device on your rifle.

At this moment, I don't have a pressing reason to get NV/thermal. I haven't hunted in years. For a SHTF situation? Despite the very small chance of needing it and having the skills to use it, it's better to have and not need it? Plus, despite being 42 years old, I'm just a kid at heart. I enjoy buying "toys" that my brother and brother-in-law can't afford (because they have wives and children) so we can all experience them. I literally bought a Benelli M4 because I've always wanted to shoot one but I personally didn't know of anyone that owns one. And if by "IR device" you mean a MWAL, DBAL, etc., that is the next rabbit hole I'm going to go down.

Next step up pixels on target voodoo-s which doubles as a good clipon.

I did consider the Voodoo-S but it seemed the consensus was that, for the money, the NOX-18 was the way to go. Additionally, as @CajunReebox pointed out, I too feel like thermal is still making leaps and bounds as compared to NV so maybe going what I would consider to be all in with a Voodoo-S at this time wouldn't be the best idea long term.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Hello, all, long time lurker, first time poster. I started a deep dive into night vision with the intent of buying binos but, after a lot of reading, I'm leaning more towards helmet mounted night vision and thermal. I have zero experience with night vision and the only experience I have with thermal is using the Flir thermal camera at work to look for hot spots in electrical equipment.

The purpose...I wouldn't say I have an explicit purpose at this moment. I'm working on getting a place where I can shoot at night so it's a skill that I'd like to start working on.

My budget is somewhat flexible, $15k-$20k, and I'm looking for a good compromise of "Buy once, cry once" and "Bang for the buck". After all my reading, I think the best solution is an un-filmed white phosphor L3Harris PVS-14 and a NOX 18 thermal. I know of a used NOX 35 for sale for a good price but, from my research, I don't think it will work as well helmet mounted with a PVS-14.

I haven't done research on helmets or IR lasers yet, that is next on my list after I nail the night vision and thermal down.

So what do you guys think? Is this a good option to get started?

Doing both and setting the stick/s up to operate both is a plus. All my thermal mounted sticks also have an IR laser's w/pressure pad's.

 

[wigwamitus]

... @Wigwam I followed your expertise on the thermal threads and particularly paid attention to your comments in the sidekick. Do you think in a year or so we could possibly see someone release something that fills the gap? Not necessarily a voodoo type of quality for $5K, but something that has a little give and take between the high end and budget friendly markets? Maybe something similar to an American made RH25 for a few dollars less? That’s what I’m holding out for ...

Well, in part depends on what "the gap" is.

Armasight came out with the Q-14 (breach gen1) in summer 2016, followed in fall 2016 by the ir-patrol. Both were clipon capable head mountable thermals.

The breach might be the most "popular" in terms of total sales, basically a q-14 with a bosun core vs the quark-2 core in the q-14.

The sidekick is an attempt to give us a 640 breach and I think it does and its clipon capable as well (though neither the q-14, breach or sidekick are advertised as clipon capable, all three have adjustable image on the display, which is what is required to manually "collimate" a clipon.


The RH25 gen2 has some "shock and awe" on image at close distances and low magnifications, but doesn't win the "works well as a clipon" contest vs the voodoo-S. But if you want a nox18 competitor on image, then the RH25 is there as least closer in.
==
==

it seemed the consensus was that, for the money, the NOX-18 was the way to go.

Again, the goal/purpose needs to be defined. It clipon capable is not part of the goal, only "observing" then the N18 is a fine way to go. But if someone wants a HMT that is also a solid clipon out to 500-ish (depending on target size and shooting skills etc) then the voodoo-S seems like the way to go


==
But let's look at the $$ Budget $15k to $20k


OPTION 1
Voodoo-S ... $15.5k
PVS-14 .... $4k
Bump, mount, bridge, counterweight ... $1.2k

laser with vscel illum ... all over the place, the holoson might be usable for $900 ...

So that's $21.6 which exceeds the budget.

OPTION 2
Nox18 ... $6k
PVS-14 .... $4k
Bump, mount, bridge, counterweight ... $1.2k

laser with vscel illum ... all over the place, the holoson might be usable for $900 ...

$12.1k

But with option 2, you don't get a clipon. BUTT, if you remove the day optic from your carbine and just have laser and offset dot on there, then you could mount the n18 on the carbine and move it back and forth between head and carbine. Its not perfect, but its better than nothing

WIth a rail-clip (like Larue) on your rail, you can ensure you mount the n18 to the same slot every time even with your eyes closed, if you practice 100 times, you can do that 1 handed.
The zero wont be perfect but should be better than 4 moa if you stay in practice.
And ideally you would remove the rail mount from the n18 if using it on your head (I do) but if you need to go back and forth then you'll have to leave the rail mount on and that will add several ounces.

The N18 is a great TWS inside 300yds. But your on 4x digital and 300yds and getting fuzzy. The reticles and zeroing process and top notch (indexed).

But if you want a clipon, then RH25 or voodooS are the options for HMT and clipon. VoodooS military grade and clearer image as a clipon. RH25 1/3 the cost.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

I reached out to my Armasight Tech Rep to pick his brain on this one. He replied:

"Typically I’d suggest the items below, but the industry is experiencing a tube shortage and we’re out of stock on these kits until August. It's worth the wait, if he can wait

Product​	MPN​	UPC​	MAP​
MNVD-51 + Sidekick 320 Kit (M/L)	KMNVD5GXSIDE31	810081912310	$6,999.00​
MNVD-51 + Sidekick 320 Kit (XL)	KMNVD5GXSIDE32	810081912327	$6,999.00​
MNVD-51 2376 + Sidekick 640 Kit (M/L)	KMNVD5GHSIDE61	810081912334	$7,999.00​
MNVD-51 2376 + Sidekick 640 Kit (XL)	KMNVD5GHSIDE62	810081912341	$7,999.00​
PVS-14 + Sidekick 320 Kit (M/L)	KPVS14GXSIDE31	810081912358	$7,999.00​
PVS-14 + Sidekick 320 Kit (XL)	KPVS14GXSIDE32	810081912365	$7,999.00​
PVS-14 2376 + Sidekick 640 Kit (M/L)	KPVS14GHSIDE61	810081912372	$8,999.00​
PVS-14 2376 + Sidekick 640 Kit (XL)	KPVS14GHSIDE62	810081912389	$8,999.00​

What we do have in stock now which is an excellent and cost effective option to get him what he needs, if he needs it now, is as follows. The Sidekick 640 has a 5 week lead time, the Sidekick 320 is available immediately. Note the kit includes helmet,

PVS-14 2376 W Helmet Kit M/L	KPVS14GHPREMI1	810081912105	$6,999.00​
Rayvn Rail + 2 Pods	ANTHMRGBRDGE01	810081912136	$399.00​
Sidekick 640 Monocular 1-4x19mm	TAVT66MN9SIDE101	810081911672	$2,999.00​

Note the PVS-14 kit includes everything he needs to run the PVS-14 as a stand-alone helmet mounted monocular. The Ravyn rail and Sidekick gives him the additional thermal capability.

PVS-14 Kit Includes: Armasight PVS-14 Premium Kit: Armasight PVS-14 Powered By Pinnacle Gen 3 Ghost White Phosphor NV Monocular, Armasight by Wilcox G95 Mount, Wilcox PVS-14 J-Arm, Armasight Watchman IR Illuminator, Armasight by Otte Gear Helmet Bag, Gray and Armasight by Team Wendy EXFIL® LTP Helmet Rail 3.0 (XL), Gray"

I hope this helps. Please feel free to give a call to discuss this.
Doug

 

[LawTalker]

I have considered this and haven't completely ruled it out yet. Unfortunately, work is going to be ridiculous this year with turnarounds, projects, etc., so I wouldn't be able to do something like that until next year. My logic (and it could be wrong) is that if I were to buy IR and thermal now, even if it isn't the end all, be all setup, I could start "playing" with it now.



At this moment, I don't have a pressing reason to get NV/thermal. I haven't hunted in years. For a SHTF situation? Despite the very small chance of needing it and having the skills to use it, it's better to have and not need it? Plus, despite being 42 years old, I'm just a kid at heart. I enjoy buying "toys" that my brother and brother-in-law can't afford (because they have wives and children) so we can all experience them. I literally bought a Benelli M4 because I've always wanted to shoot one but I personally didn't know of anyone that owns one. And if by "IR device" you mean a MWAL, DBAL, etc., that is the next rabbit hole I'm going to go down.



I did consider the Voodoo-S but it seemed the consensus was that, for the money, the NOX-18 was the way to go. Additionally, as @CajunReebox pointed out, I too feel like thermal is still making leaps and bounds as compared to NV so maybe going what I would consider to be all in with a Voodoo-S at this time wouldn't be the best idea long term.

I'll be out West numerous times this summer around Oklahoma/Texas and possibly Wyoming/Montana. If you ever want to meet up at a rifle academy and try out my AN/PVS-14 or Holosun LE420 [cheapo/entry level IR device] let me know. I'm also about to go for a MAWL.


I'll also be around the Ohio/Kentucky border area for some courses.

If you wind up out near the area between Cleveland and Detroit, you can try out any of my gear you want.

I bought a Benelli M4 because I wanted one... Actually, I'm not proud of this, I bought 4 of them because I got carried away. Yeah, I know... I since sold 3 of them. In any event, I much prefer my Beretta 1301 Tactical.

Sometimes I just get something because "wow, that seems neat, useful, it can fill some possible roles, and I want it."