Night Vision Thermal optics
- Thread starter RADcustom
- Start date
Re: Thermal optics
Weapon sight,If you want a whats considered to be "fairly mainstream" today get a unit with a 640X480 detector and one which uses a OLED display.
I would pick VOx over a-Si for the detector type and the 640x480 will provide you with aprox 4times better raw image than the 320x240 array providing you are outputting the video ( ITSC for USA folks) into a good display.
Stay in the 17-25 micron range for pixel size ( very proven design).
Most units will have a f1.0 - f1.4 lens ,for the same "size magnification" the f1.4 will be smaller/lighter.
Units generally of this size willl be of the "uncooled" type,especially at the price below.
Expect to pay 13.5K and up for a unit.
Once you have a good thermal unit,you will think traditional NV is a joke for acquiring and engaging targets. Seriously !!!!! ........unless you just want to shoot at paper stapled to a board.
sub,out.
Weapon sight,If you want a whats considered to be "fairly mainstream" today get a unit with a 640X480 detector and one which uses a OLED display.
I would pick VOx over a-Si for the detector type and the 640x480 will provide you with aprox 4times better raw image than the 320x240 array providing you are outputting the video ( ITSC for USA folks) into a good display.
Stay in the 17-25 micron range for pixel size ( very proven design).
Most units will have a f1.0 - f1.4 lens ,for the same "size magnification" the f1.4 will be smaller/lighter.
Units generally of this size willl be of the "uncooled" type,especially at the price below.
Expect to pay 13.5K and up for a unit.
Once you have a good thermal unit,you will think traditional NV is a joke for acquiring and engaging targets. Seriously !!!!! ........unless you just want to shoot at paper stapled to a board.
sub,out.
Re: Thermal optics
Ill throw my .2 cents in here. The Thermal units are great for Target Detection, meaning what ever you are shooting at cant really hide from you, but with a thermal you can get good target recognition.
When i say target recognition, i mean that you cant tell which one needs to be shot. Lets say that you have 2 guys out there, one has a gun, one doesnt. You cant really tell with a thermal which one needs to be shot.
Now in an ideal world, you would want a thermal handheld device, and a clip on night vision infront of a primary day optic.
Ill throw my .2 cents in here. The Thermal units are great for Target Detection, meaning what ever you are shooting at cant really hide from you, but with a thermal you can get good target recognition.
When i say target recognition, i mean that you cant tell which one needs to be shot. Lets say that you have 2 guys out there, one has a gun, one doesnt. You cant really tell with a thermal which one needs to be shot.
Now in an ideal world, you would want a thermal handheld device, and a clip on night vision infront of a primary day optic.
Re: Thermal optics
what deadly said, thermal is good for finding targets, nv is good for recognition
what deadly said, thermal is good for finding targets, nv is good for recognition
Re: Thermal optics
I've never used "civilian" thermal optics... is there a big difference between those and what we get in the military? I've used a large variety of thermal devices in the military- some you can easily make out a weapon at any REASONABLE distance... other's you can't
I've never used "civilian" thermal optics... is there a big difference between those and what we get in the military? I've used a large variety of thermal devices in the military- some you can easily make out a weapon at any REASONABLE distance... other's you can't
Re: Thermal optics
depends on alot of factors but more than likely any civilian thermal unit will be the same that the military can get. I know for a fact the Hensolddt thermals we were playing with last weekend infront of a Hensoldt day scope, i will that id rather use the NV unit
depends on alot of factors but more than likely any civilian thermal unit will be the same that the military can get. I know for a fact the Hensolddt thermals we were playing with last weekend infront of a Hensoldt day scope, i will that id rather use the NV unit
Re: Thermal optics
Boy you should change your name to franky the farce..
Boy you should change your name to franky the farce..
Re: Thermal optics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Boy you should change your name to franky the farce.. </div></div>
who are you referring to?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Boy you should change your name to franky the farce.. </div></div>
who are you referring to?
Re: Thermal optics
The little know it all story teller frankythefly..
The little know it all story teller frankythefly..
Re: Thermal optics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big pro of thermals is that you extend your effective range. Night Vision needs illumination, thermal just needs a heat difference. The only limitation with thermals is switching to black hot to white hot, batteries ($expensive lithium), size(thermals are 3-20 times the size of nvgs). You can pick up fine details with thermals such as face expressions, weapon types, etc but thermals that can do this are extremely expensive. Be prepared to spend more than 60k for a decent thermal unit.
The new craze with nvgs is the White phosphorus units, they are gen 4, limitations is your illuminator, they are lite weight, and the output is black and white instead of black and green. They can be picked up for 5k. Also the nvgs can be applied to your day optic.(some thermals can do this to but the sensor is weak and range is not that great)
</div></div>
Just to clarify a few things about this post. Modern Thermals are not that much bigger than modern NV units, actually the thermals i had last weekend were smaller than our NV units. Also there is no such thing as Gen 4 night vision.
Testing our thermal unit against our NV unit at 100 yds, we could pick up what someone was holding in their hands with fine detail with Nightvision, and with the thermals at the same distance we could only tell they were holding "something". More than 60K for a good thermal unit, id say Zeiss is a respected name, and ours are around 15-25K.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big pro of thermals is that you extend your effective range. Night Vision needs illumination, thermal just needs a heat difference. The only limitation with thermals is switching to black hot to white hot, batteries ($expensive lithium), size(thermals are 3-20 times the size of nvgs). You can pick up fine details with thermals such as face expressions, weapon types, etc but thermals that can do this are extremely expensive. Be prepared to spend more than 60k for a decent thermal unit.
The new craze with nvgs is the White phosphorus units, they are gen 4, limitations is your illuminator, they are lite weight, and the output is black and white instead of black and green. They can be picked up for 5k. Also the nvgs can be applied to your day optic.(some thermals can do this to but the sensor is weak and range is not that great)
</div></div>
Just to clarify a few things about this post. Modern Thermals are not that much bigger than modern NV units, actually the thermals i had last weekend were smaller than our NV units. Also there is no such thing as Gen 4 night vision.
Testing our thermal unit against our NV unit at 100 yds, we could pick up what someone was holding in their hands with fine detail with Nightvision, and with the thermals at the same distance we could only tell they were holding "something". More than 60K for a good thermal unit, id say Zeiss is a respected name, and ours are around 15-25K.
Re: Thermal optics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big pro of thermals is that you extend your effective range. Night Vision needs illumination, thermal just needs a heat difference. The only limitation with thermals is switching to black hot to white hot, batteries ($expensive lithium), size(thermals are 3-20 times the size of nvgs). You can pick up fine details with thermals such as face expressions, weapon types, etc but thermals that can do this are extremely expensive. Be prepared to spend more than 60k for a decent thermal unit.
The new craze with nvgs is the White phosphorus units, they are gen 4, limitations is your illuminator, they are lite weight, and the output is black and white instead of black and green. They can be picked up for 5k. Also the nvgs can be applied to your day optic.(some thermals can do this to but the sensor is weak and range is not that great)
</div></div>
No, on almost all counts.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big pro of thermals is that you extend your effective range. Night Vision needs illumination, thermal just needs a heat difference. The only limitation with thermals is switching to black hot to white hot, batteries ($expensive lithium), size(thermals are 3-20 times the size of nvgs). You can pick up fine details with thermals such as face expressions, weapon types, etc but thermals that can do this are extremely expensive. Be prepared to spend more than 60k for a decent thermal unit.
The new craze with nvgs is the White phosphorus units, they are gen 4, limitations is your illuminator, they are lite weight, and the output is black and white instead of black and green. They can be picked up for 5k. Also the nvgs can be applied to your day optic.(some thermals can do this to but the sensor is weak and range is not that great)
</div></div>
No, on almost all counts.
Re: Thermal optics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thermals we use in the military are anywhere from 25K and up 60k, I think any one has been in the military can confirm this. I know the first onces we had where at 150k and weighed 3-5lbs for the m24.
In the civilian sector for NVG Gen 4 is the same as milspec GEN 3,
Big Difference between Gen 3 civilian and Milspec Gen 3 so most manufactures list milspec as Gen 4:
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-6015-4-nightvision-monocular </div></div>
You can get handheld and helmet capable Thermal units for around 4-5K. You are talking about weapon based units and they range from 15-50K. The knights armament unit that is pretty popular right now goes for about 25K if you can find one for sale.
Me personally, I will stick with NV. Its not as much money and it does what I want within the ranges that I need it done in.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thermals we use in the military are anywhere from 25K and up 60k, I think any one has been in the military can confirm this. I know the first onces we had where at 150k and weighed 3-5lbs for the m24.
In the civilian sector for NVG Gen 4 is the same as milspec GEN 3,
Big Difference between Gen 3 civilian and Milspec Gen 3 so most manufactures list milspec as Gen 4:
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-6015-4-nightvision-monocular </div></div>
You can get handheld and helmet capable Thermal units for around 4-5K. You are talking about weapon based units and they range from 15-50K. The knights armament unit that is pretty popular right now goes for about 25K if you can find one for sale.
Me personally, I will stick with NV. Its not as much money and it does what I want within the ranges that I need it done in.
Re: Thermal optics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thermals we use in the military are anywhere from 25K and up 60k, I think any one has been in the military can confirm this. I know the first onces we had where at 150k and weighed 3-5lbs for the m24.
In the civilian sector for NVG Gen 4 is the same as milspec GEN 3,
Big Difference between Gen 3 civilian and Milspec Gen 3 so most manufactures list milspec as Gen 4:
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-6015-4-nightvision-monocular </div></div>
Is that the same M24 that you have a an IOR 10x mounted on? best to just shut the fuck up and go out and play sniper with your savage you posted with the with the Choate stock and nikon hunting scope.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thermals we use in the military are anywhere from 25K and up 60k, I think any one has been in the military can confirm this. I know the first onces we had where at 150k and weighed 3-5lbs for the m24.
In the civilian sector for NVG Gen 4 is the same as milspec GEN 3,
Big Difference between Gen 3 civilian and Milspec Gen 3 so most manufactures list milspec as Gen 4:
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-6015-4-nightvision-monocular </div></div>
Is that the same M24 that you have a an IOR 10x mounted on? best to just shut the fuck up and go out and play sniper with your savage you posted with the with the Choate stock and nikon hunting scope.
Re: Thermal optics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thermals we use in the military are anywhere from 10K and up 60k, I think any one has been in the military can confirm this. I know the first onces we had where at 150k and weighed 3-5lbs for the m24.
In the civilian sector for NVG Gen 4 is the same as milspec GEN 3,
Big Difference between Gen 3 civilian and Milspec Gen 3 so most manufactures list milspec as Gen 4:
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-6015-4-nightvision-monocular </div></div>
Again there is NO Gen 4 NV devices, the highest grade is Gen 4 Pinnacle. I was in the military so i am aware of what they cost. There is absolutely no difference in Gen 3 in the military and Gen 3 in the civilian sector.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thermals we use in the military are anywhere from 10K and up 60k, I think any one has been in the military can confirm this. I know the first onces we had where at 150k and weighed 3-5lbs for the m24.
In the civilian sector for NVG Gen 4 is the same as milspec GEN 3,
Big Difference between Gen 3 civilian and Milspec Gen 3 so most manufactures list milspec as Gen 4:
http://www.atncorp.com/atn-6015-4-nightvision-monocular </div></div>
Again there is NO Gen 4 NV devices, the highest grade is Gen 4 Pinnacle. I was in the military so i am aware of what they cost. There is absolutely no difference in Gen 3 in the military and Gen 3 in the civilian sector.
Re: Thermal optics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The ones they issued us a couple years back was supposed to be the newest lightest thermal around was helmet mounted and or could be mounted in front of our day sight. AN/PSQ-20, It was heavier, ate batteries like crazy and wasn't all that clear like the weapon mounted sights. The weapon mounted sights can pick targets out to 800 meters plus+. Show me a NVG with out an illuminator on that can pick out targets even 10 feet away in total darkness. My only experience has been with whatever I used in the military (AN/PVS-10, AN/PSQ-20,tow guidance system, and the big ol Raytheon ones, pvs-7, pvs-14 etc)and I am by means no expert.
Everything we used thermal wise is huge and expensive. Have you ever seen the size of a pvs-10? or any of the military thermals they are huge and weigh a ton. They also have huge heat exchangers from the computer processor and if you leave them on and put them down for a little bit they burn up, also we don't use zeiss thermals in our military.
Sure you can get a little thermal for 5k but are you going to trust your life with it and or the lives of others, it might work pretty well when you tiger strip your face and go stalking in your suburb. Show me 5k thermal than can show you what kind a weapon someone is holding at 800 meters away.
Testing any NVG or thermals at 100 yds is worthless by the way, if you are going to test something you should test it in field conditions. </div></div>
Hey turdfly..PVS10 is not a thermal sight..but im sure you already knew that..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The ones they issued us a couple years back was supposed to be the newest lightest thermal around was helmet mounted and or could be mounted in front of our day sight. AN/PSQ-20, It was heavier, ate batteries like crazy and wasn't all that clear like the weapon mounted sights. The weapon mounted sights can pick targets out to 800 meters plus+. Show me a NVG with out an illuminator on that can pick out targets even 10 feet away in total darkness. My only experience has been with whatever I used in the military (AN/PVS-10, AN/PSQ-20,tow guidance system, and the big ol Raytheon ones, pvs-7, pvs-14 etc)and I am by means no expert.
Everything we used thermal wise is huge and expensive. Have you ever seen the size of a pvs-10? or any of the military thermals they are huge and weigh a ton. They also have huge heat exchangers from the computer processor and if you leave them on and put them down for a little bit they burn up, also we don't use zeiss thermals in our military.
Sure you can get a little thermal for 5k but are you going to trust your life with it and or the lives of others, it might work pretty well when you tiger strip your face and go stalking in your suburb. Show me 5k thermal than can show you what kind a weapon someone is holding at 800 meters away.
Testing any NVG or thermals at 100 yds is worthless by the way, if you are going to test something you should test it in field conditions. </div></div>
Hey turdfly..PVS10 is not a thermal sight..but im sure you already knew that..
Re: Thermal optics
Show me a NVG with out an illuminator on that can pick out targets even 10 feet away in total darkness.
here is one...... http://www.hudisco.com/NSV-80%20Clip-on%20Night%20Vision%20Device.html
Also, id say we have probably done more thermal testing and NV testing here than you would want to imagine.
You are talking about thermal technology from years ago, when i was in the USMC, we had some M4 mounted thermals that were no bigger than a PVS 14.
And there isnt a thermal out there that will let you see what type of weapon anyone is holding, thats coming from a German Engineer who designs thermal systems for Zeiss.....take it for what its worth
Show me a NVG with out an illuminator on that can pick out targets even 10 feet away in total darkness.
here is one...... http://www.hudisco.com/NSV-80%20Clip-on%20Night%20Vision%20Device.html
Also, id say we have probably done more thermal testing and NV testing here than you would want to imagine.
You are talking about thermal technology from years ago, when i was in the USMC, we had some M4 mounted thermals that were no bigger than a PVS 14.
And there isnt a thermal out there that will let you see what type of weapon anyone is holding, thats coming from a German Engineer who designs thermal systems for Zeiss.....take it for what its worth
Re: Thermal optics
FYI
I simply said that civilian companies mark gen 4 on their products that are Mil spec Gen 3, here is one of those said companies
http://www.atncorp.com/HowNightVisionWorks#gen4
It is more a marketing thing, but the civilian companies go off the latest tube tech which you listed as the GEN 4 pinnacle. They do this as to separate new technology from the third so consumers can distinguish the newer products.
FYI
I simply said that civilian companies mark gen 4 on their products that are Mil spec Gen 3, here is one of those said companies
http://www.atncorp.com/HowNightVisionWorks#gen4
It is more a marketing thing, but the civilian companies go off the latest tube tech which you listed as the GEN 4 pinnacle. They do this as to separate new technology from the third so consumers can distinguish the newer products.
Re: Thermal optics
its a marketing gimmick...there is no such thing as Gen 4
its a marketing gimmick...there is no such thing as Gen 4
Re: Thermal optics
Hey turdfly..PVS10 is not a thermal sight..but im sure you already knew that.. [/quote]
Yeah your right I was talking about the huge raytheon one PAS-13
Hey turdfly..PVS10 is not a thermal sight..but im sure you already knew that.. [/quote]
Yeah your right I was talking about the huge raytheon one PAS-13
Re: Thermal optics
You haven't looked thru a good thermal unit if you cant see a weapon. A good thermal unit produces video that looks like black and white photos,resolution is excellent with current technology. As with anything in life,there are Physical laws envolved but the days of I'squared trumping thermal in "recognition" are over in all but a few situations.
Law enforcement has to be "lawyer defendable". The technology in thermal is there now...just not the education.
You haven't looked thru a good thermal unit if you cant see a weapon. A good thermal unit produces video that looks like black and white photos,resolution is excellent with current technology. As with anything in life,there are Physical laws envolved but the days of I'squared trumping thermal in "recognition" are over in all but a few situations.
Law enforcement has to be "lawyer defendable". The technology in thermal is there now...just not the education.
Re: Thermal optics
what i mean is even with the best thermal, you can't see someones face well enough to identify them
what i mean is even with the best thermal, you can't see someones face well enough to identify them
Re: Thermal optics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: subgunr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You haven't looked thru a good thermal unit if you cant see a weapon. A good thermal unit produces video that looks like black and white photos,resolution is excellent with current technology. As with anything in life,there are Physical laws envolved but the days of I'squared trumping thermal in "recognition" are over in all but a few situations.
Law enforcement has to be "lawyer defendable". The technology in thermal is there now...just not the education.
</div></div>
Can i get a picture, because the Hensoldt Thermal and Hensoldt scope wasnt producing near the image needed to identify a weapon at any further than 300
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: subgunr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You haven't looked thru a good thermal unit if you cant see a weapon. A good thermal unit produces video that looks like black and white photos,resolution is excellent with current technology. As with anything in life,there are Physical laws envolved but the days of I'squared trumping thermal in "recognition" are over in all but a few situations.
Law enforcement has to be "lawyer defendable". The technology in thermal is there now...just not the education.
</div></div>
Can i get a picture, because the Hensoldt Thermal and Hensoldt scope wasnt producing near the image needed to identify a weapon at any further than 300
Re: Thermal optics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big pro of thermals is that you extend your effective range. Night Vision needs illumination, thermal just needs a heat difference. The only limitation with thermals is switching to black hot to white hot, batteries ($expensive lithium), size(thermals are 3-20 times the size of nvgs). You can pick up fine details with thermals such as face expressions, weapon types, etc but thermals that can do this are extremely expensive. Be prepared to spend more than 60k for a decent thermal unit.</div></div> Do you know what you are talking about at all?
Educate yourself here & here
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big pro of thermals is that you extend your effective range. Night Vision needs illumination, thermal just needs a heat difference. The only limitation with thermals is switching to black hot to white hot, batteries ($expensive lithium), size(thermals are 3-20 times the size of nvgs). You can pick up fine details with thermals such as face expressions, weapon types, etc but thermals that can do this are extremely expensive. Be prepared to spend more than 60k for a decent thermal unit.</div></div> Do you know what you are talking about at all?
Educate yourself here & here
Re: Thermal optics
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Everything we used thermal wise is huge and expensive. Have you ever seen the size of a pvs-10? or any of the military thermals they are huge and weigh a ton. They also have huge heat exchangers from the computer processor and if you leave them on and put them down for a little bit they burn up, also we don't use zeiss thermals in our military. </div></div>
These were fairly new in Nov 04 (date of this picture)... Compact, didn't make much noise, lasted 4 hours on 4 123A's, can identify weapons (presence of, not type) to about 400m.
Since this picture was taken, I've ran two different types, one a touch smaller with similar capabilities and longer run time (6hrs on 4 123A's) and one the size of a PVS14, which while very good quality, lacks some clarity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Everything we used thermal wise is huge and expensive. Have you ever seen the size of a pvs-10? or any of the military thermals they are huge and weigh a ton. They also have huge heat exchangers from the computer processor and if you leave them on and put them down for a little bit they burn up, also we don't use zeiss thermals in our military. </div></div>
These were fairly new in Nov 04 (date of this picture)... Compact, didn't make much noise, lasted 4 hours on 4 123A's, can identify weapons (presence of, not type) to about 400m.
Since this picture was taken, I've ran two different types, one a touch smaller with similar capabilities and longer run time (6hrs on 4 123A's) and one the size of a PVS14, which while very good quality, lacks some clarity.
Similar threads
Night Vision Realistic accuracy expectations with a thermal
