Thermal vs NV Clip-On

[tex68w]

Looking to add a clip-on for night time coyote hunting with my 6 ARC gasser. Most of the hunting will be done from a tripod so weight and balance aren't the most important. Distances of engagement will range from 50-400 yards and I'd like to run it in front of an ATACR 4-16 F1. I've been looking at PVS 24 LR's and 30's and thermal clip-ons trying to better understand the shortcomings of each setup. Any input between the two systems in general for my specified use case and/or specific suggestions on the hardware itself?

 

[TheHorta]

INOD.

 

[Surdez1994]

If you have the money. I would scan with a thermal handheld. And shoot behind the clip on. throw a vortex impact 4k or similar weapon mounted lrf on.

Or just get a halo xrf for less money and still have a very capable long range coyote killer. And if weight isnt an issue i would run a large frame ar in 22 or 6 creed.

 

[tex68w]

If you have the money. I would scan with a thermal handheld. And shoot behind the clip on. throw a vortex impact 4k or similar weapon mounted lrf on.

Or just get a halo xrf for less money and still have a very capable long range coyote killer. And if weight isnt an issue i would run a large frame ar in 22 or 6 creed.

I have 6 Creed covered in a bolt, no interest in large frames, been there done that. I want to use the 6 ARC for this, it's more than up to the task.

Are you suggesting thermal clip on along with the thermal handheld or NV for the clip on? I can get a Nox 35 for the handheld, it could also work for inside of 200 but that sort of limits the 6 ARC and the area we will be hunting.

 

[Dogtown]

Thermal for hunting, but your clip-on options are going to be north of $10k if you want to get the most out of that scope (actually the same is generally true of newer NV clip-ons). Have a look in the PX for a used one. I keep seeing the various Theon/EOTech ClipIR showing up and the LR or xELR would be good options for use with a 4-16x.

 

[tex68w]

Thermal for hunting, but your clip-on options are going to be north of $10k if you want to get the most out of that scope (actually the same is generally true of newer NV clip-ons). Have a look in the PX for a used one. I keep seeing the various Theon/EOTech ClipIR showing up and the LR or xELR would be good options for use with a 4-16x.

Yes, I've noticed the Eotech ClipIR in the PX, I wasn't sure if that would be acceptable beyond 200 on the lower end of my day optic (4x-6x).

 

[Surdez1994]

I have 6 Creed covered in a bolt, no interest in large frames, been there done that. I want to use the 6 ARC for this, it's more than up to the task.

Are you suggesting thermal clip on along with the thermal handheld or NV for the clip on? I can get a Nox 35 for the handheld, it could also work for inside of 200 but that sort of limits the 6 ARC and the area we will be hunting.

Night vision clip on.
Thermal scanner.


Or just run a halo xrf.

Might be an unpopular opinion, but the 6 arc is slow. Unless you load down to say a 58 gr vmax, at that point your optics will outperform your choice of cartridge. Speed kills. The less drop you can have the higher your probability is of hitting your target. The faster your bullet the easier it is to hit a moving target.. or something like that.

Give me a 80 eldm at 3300 in a 22 creed over a 108 in a 6 arc at 2750 (if your lucky) every day.

 

[shlouf]

I’m in the same boat. I’ve got my old pulsar trail xp38 to use as a scanner or dedicated scope if I want a lighter rig for chasing pigs.

I’m on the fence between something like the super yoter-c or a pvs-22,27,30

 

[FuhQ]

Looking to add a clip-on for night time coyote hunting with my 6 ARC gasser. Most of the hunting will be done from a tripod so weight and balance aren't the most important. Distances of engagement will range from 50-400 yards and I'd like to run it in front of an ATACR 4-16 F1. I've been looking at PVS 24 LR's and 30's and thermal clip-ons trying to better understand the shortcomings of each setup. Any input between the two systems in general for my specified use case and/or specific suggestions on the hardware itself?

Owning both, here’s how I feel about them…

If you want to be able to really see in pretty sharp detail (photograph-like) then get a really nice NV & IR light setup.

If you are more interested in detecting heat signatures (animals) no matter the atmospheric conditions with a fairly good background image quality, go with a high end 640 thermal.

A buddy of mine killed a deer right at dark Friday evening. We went deep into the woods to get it, but blood trail was virtually non-existent. He made a good shot on it, just didn’t bleed hardly at all. I took the thermal with us, so I went and got it out of the gator, and in just a couple minutes found the deer’s residual body heat signature glowing black in the cold creek 35 yards from impact.

NV (AGM Neith DS32-4MP $900)

Thermal (AGM Rattler 50-640 $4,000)

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Thermal clip ons worth owning can’t be touched under 8k-10K or so. At minimum LWTS which can be had for 8K used but will be a little limited on magnification to 8-10x ideally. LWTS-LR or UTCX are where it’s at but you’re talking 12-20k. Even with a thermal clip on you’ll still want something handheld to scan with too.

You can get a clean 24LR for 6-7K and then get something as simple as a breach for a little over $2K to scan with or spend more for something badass like a M250/M300, Skeet, UTM, MTM, etc. I really like the MTM’s with the IR laser for a more budget scanner because they’re tough as shit and you can get them used for $2500 or so. Most are only 320 units but I’ll take a 320 L3 over any imported 640 unit. Advantages to the NV clip on are ID being able to tell a coyote for your neighbors dog and the ability to run a WMLRF and see the IR laser on it for range.

You could buy both used for good values and sell whichever you like the least, not be out with anything and know you made the best choice for your uses and preferences.

 

[tex68w]

Thermal clip ons worth owning can’t be touched under 8k-10K or so. At minimum LWTS which can be had for 8K used but will be a little limited on magnification to 8-10x ideally. LWTS-LR or UTCX are where it’s at but you’re talking 12-20k. Even with a thermal clip on you’ll still want something handheld to scan with too.

You can get a clean 24LR for 6-7K and then get something as simple as a breach for a little over $2K to scan with or spend more for something badass like a M250/M300, Skeet, UTM, MTM, etc. I really like the MTM’s with the IR laser for a more budget scanner because they’re tough as shit and you can get them used for $2500 or so. Most are only 320 units but I’ll take a 320 L3 over any imported 640 unit. Advantages to the NV clip on are ID being able to tell a coyote for your neighbors dog and the ability to run a WMLRF and see the IR laser on it for range.

You could buy both used for good values and sell whichever you like the least, not be out with anything and know you made the best choice for your uses and preferences.

I'd love to find a 24 LR for $6-7K, only thing I am seeing are new units at $10K. Old green tube, dual battery 30's are around for $5K-ish.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

They pop up on here every so often. I wouldn’t own another 30, they perform great but are heavy AF and the focus ring sucks ass and is hard to reach compared to the lever on the 24.

 

[Dogtown]

That's precisely why I'm impatiently waiting on the UNS LR A3...once more than a few make it out into the civilian world.

 

[tex68w]

If I go 24 LR I'll need to track down a Kiji 3 degree. For some reason those seem to be unobtanium.

 

[Dogtown]

If I go 24 LR I'll need to track down a Kiji 3 degree. For some reason those seem to be unobtanium.

I got one directly from BE Myers a while back...

KIJI

KIJI™ from B.E. Meyers & Co., Inc. is the most powerful, modular, VCSEL-based infrared laser illuminator commercially available. A Class 3R laser device, similar to the illuminator performance of the MAWL-DA, the KIJI K1-3˚ emits up to 150mw, and the KIJI

bemeyers.com

 

[tex68w]

I got one directly from BE Myers a while back...

KIJI

KIJI™ from B.E. Meyers & Co., Inc. is the most powerful, modular, VCSEL-based infrared laser illuminator commercially available. A Class 3R laser device, similar to the illuminator performance of the MAWL-DA, the KIJI K1-3˚ emits up to 150mw, and the KIJI

bemeyers.com

Thanks!

 

[Dogtown]

Sometimes ordering directly from the manufacturer can be slow, but I was impressed how quickly BE Myers got stuff out.

 

[smcfarland]

Don’t forget the SIMRAD. Still think the best value out there in the clip on world.

 

[MuleyTime]

What about the new Iray Mate for a Thermal Clip-on.....Looks pretty damn good to me.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Make sure you understand the limitations of your scope with a thermal clip on. I have a Hogster clip on, so this may not apply to all brands.
Magnification of 2-3x will show you the screen in full, anything more you are looking at a smaller part of the screen and the image gets pixilated. If your reticle is first focal plane, see if you like it at 2-3x for the ranges and game you hunt. I can go up to about 6x with mine, but lose image quality and field of view.
I much prefer switching to a dedicated thermal over the clip on.

 

[rlsmith1]

What about the new Iray Mate for a Thermal Clip-on.....Looks pretty damn good to me.

If you are only using it as a clip on (and don't mind Chinese), I think the Super Yoter C v2 will perform better but I could be wrong

 

[Dogtown]

and don't mind Chinese

For a lot of people that’s a dealbreaker, but the economics are too inciting for others.

 

[Dirtracer151]

If I go 24 LR I'll need to track down a Kiji 3 degree. For some reason those seem to be unobtanium.

I got a Kiji 3 when they first came out. Ended up selling it because the 3deg was still too much flood to use with the PVS27. It floods off everything between you and the target, bushes, trees, rocks, the ground, etc. I went back to using my Luna ELIR with the filter removed since i can dial it in as tight as needed. The kiji 3 is cool and its semi powerful but id skip it for serious clip on work.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Looking to add a clip-on for night time coyote hunting with my 6 ARC gasser. Most of the hunting will be done from a tripod so weight and balance aren't the most important. Distances of engagement will range from 50-400 yards and I'd like to run it in front of an ATACR 4-16 F1. I've been looking at PVS 24 LR's and 30's and thermal clip-ons trying to better understand the shortcomings of each setup. Any input between the two systems in general for my specified use case and/or specific suggestions on the hardware itself?

I checked with my Burris Tech Rep on this and he replied:

"Funny enough, 6ARC gas guns are what we have been using ourselves- the flatter trajectory and longer, heavier bullets offer better inflight and terminal ballistic performance, allowing our shots to be less sensitive to ranging errors at night and without LRF capabilities (which can be enhanced with a weapon-mounted LRF, as some of the others in the thread have mentioned). While I can’t speak very well to the performance of rifle-mounted image intensifiers(I2) such as the PVS 24/30 LR, we do have plenty of experience with our line of thermal clip-ons. The BTC’s return to zero quite well, so when we’re sighted in at 250y with 75gr VMAX projectiles going 3k fps at the muzzle, we’re able to get ±~2.5” of the crosshair out to 300y, and not a ton of drop out to 400y, so it works out pretty well.

I’d say Pro’s are: target detection with thermal is far better than either Digital or I2 NV devices, and ideal magnification range for our thermal clip-on is between 2-5x, so OP’s 4-16x should work fine. Con’s are that image quality is not as good as NV, and his Nightforce’s reticle will be quite small at low power if it’s FFP, so I’d hope that he’s got reticle illumination to help out with that."

 

[tex68w]

I checked with my Burris Tech Rep on this and he replied:

"Funny enough, 6ARC gas guns are what we have been using ourselves- the flatter trajectory and longer, heavier bullets offer better inflight and terminal ballistic performance, allowing our shots to be less sensitive to ranging errors at night and without LRF capabilities (which can be enhanced with a weapon-mounted LRF, as some of the others in the thread have mentioned). While I can’t speak very well to the performance of rifle-mounted image intensifiers(I2) such as the PVS 24/30 LR, we do have plenty of experience with our line of thermal clip-ons. The BTC’s return to zero quite well, so when we’re sighted in at 250y with 75gr VMAX projectiles going 3k fps at the muzzle, we’re able to get ±~2.5” of the crosshair out to 300y, and not a ton of drop out to 400y, so it works out pretty well.

I’d say Pro’s are: target detection with thermal is far better than either Digital or I2 NV devices, and ideal magnification range for our thermal clip-on is between 2-5x, so OP’s 4-16x should work fine. Con’s are that image quality is not as good as NV, and his Nightforce’s reticle will be quite small at low power if it’s FFP, so I’d hope that he’s got reticle illumination to help out with that."

Great feedback! Good to know on the 4x working fine with the clip on and the reticle on the ATACR 4-16 is illuminated, I wouldn't have a hunting rifle without one. I know nothing about Burris and their thermal sites. Do they use BAE cores or chicom stuff?

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Great feedback! Good to know on the 4x working fine with the clip on and the reticle on the ATACR 4-16 is illuminated, I wouldn't have a hunting rifle without one. I know nothing about Burris and their thermal sites. Do they use BAE cores or chicom stuff?

The official response is "Burris thermal devices are sourced from Asia, which allows them to come in at a drastically reduced price" Which is a marketing way to say China.

Shooting optics at 400x300 resolution are $2499.99, that's clip on's or dedicated riflescopes. V3 of Burris thermal adds a 640x480 riflescope at $3499.99. The quality is there.

If you look at the majority of Thermal and NV products you'll see China is involved with them. Companies like Pard, which spec out well, is a Chinese company. We have accepted that many brands source from China, however, we prefer to not deal with direct from China, owned by China brands.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

This is my 6.5G with 1-6x Sig Tango 6 FFP and Hogster Clip On.
Yes picture quality sucks.
See how far forward the clip on focus is even with a LPVO?

At 1x screen is small

At 2x can see all of the screen and important setting details around edge.

At 3x starting to lose edge info and FOV. Image quality is actually about best here, max resolution while seeing full screen top to bottom, what you lose is the result of a round window on a rectangular screen.

At 4x missing edge data and may not be able to see enough of drop menu to make changes.

5x

6x reticle is nice, but FOV, image is the trade off for magnification.

Point is, not having less than 4x would be a deal breaker for me, half FOV, half resolution and can't see display to know or change settings.
This clip on is ideal for a 1-4x or 1-6x, FFP or 1-4x, 1-6x, 1-8x SFP.

Swapping QD Optic and QD Thermal back and forth is a much better option. Better balance and reaching the focus for thermal is not a crazy stretch to front of handguard. Usually less money also. If I had it to do over I would not get the clip on.