Sidearms & Scatterguns Thinking of ditching .40

[j-moose32]

Just like the title says, thinking of doing a clean out of my pistols and going to all glocks, mostly 9mm and no more .40.

All this talk of “new technology” in 9mm blah blah, and not sure if .40
Is worth it. Will be doing a couple RMR setups, and seems like Glock is also starting to focus on 9mm and get away from .40

Give me the push over the hill or reel me back in!

 

[j-moose32]

Oh and I’ll keep a couple 1911’s cause America

 

[OLD308]

I have a Glock 34 and 35 for competition. Now they are both 9mm. It’s the hit that count, and recoil dictates speed. Yea the 40 has more speed and energy give the same weight bullet. That does nothing for you If you miss. Training ammo is also way cheaper.

 

[hermosabeach]

As ammo climbed in prices, the 9mm became easier to shoot... It seems .40 has dropped closer to 9mm.

Both work very well

.as .40 is being retire by LEO, I'm not sure where ammo prices will be in 5 years...

 

[brianf]

if not blowing through ammo full time
dump the 40 and get a glock 40 in 10mm with a rmr up top

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Glock 40 chambered in 224 BOZ

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Alabusa]

I did the same a few years back. For many years, I carried the .40 exclusively but now have gone to all 9mm. Cheaper ammo, less recoil and higher cap(not as much difference as .45 acp) has won me over.

My next pistol purchase will be a Glock 40 mos with a JPoint reflex sight.

 

[garandman]

I ditched all my .40s and went pretty much Sig 9/45 and S&W Shield exclusively (for SD calibers) .

Always been a huge 9mm fan. Surprised how much I like 45 ACP.

.40 is too snappy for not enuf diameter increase over 9mm.

 

[Fig]

I look for pistols in calibers I don’t own. I have three Blocks. 17L, 19, 27. These are the three mostest differentest clones of the same pistol. I don’t even carry full sized anymore. I’m a dedicated mouse gun guy now...

 

[garandman]

FWIW....

Blocks feel awful in my hand, and don't "point" well for me... when using my natural point of aim, the frnt sight rides way high, and I gotta cant my wrist dwn to align the sights.

 

[pmclaine]

Do it and dont look back.

You get "snappy" and higher cost with no perceptible benefit.

There was "up" and there was "down" whoever decided there needed to be middle just muddied the waters.

 

[Pappakap]

I don’t compete with handguns they are strictly for the purpose of defense/training. I’m fully invested in the notion that with modern propellants and projectiles 9mm is the way to go. Cheaper to train with, and for the purpose of home defense it makes essentially the same sized hole with modern ammunition. If you look into the FBI reports of agent involved shootings in modern times most after action reports say they wish they had more bullets not more firepower and the 9mm gives that.

My .02 cents

 

[W54/XM-388]

If you are in free state that allows you to have standard capacity magazines, do as you want.

However if you are in a limited capacity state, stick with the .40 or upgrade to 10mm

The .40 S&W when used with top of the line high energy ammunition has a significantly greater penetrating ability as well as energy delivery ability than the 9mm. (Based on our actual testing), especially with hard barriers. (Now .357 Sig is also very interesting in that regards).

The reason everyone is going back to 9mm love is, cost, size, capacity and ease of shooting long strings.

The .40 is going to cost a bit more, you are going to have less capacity and it is not nearly as easy to shoot well, especially for older/weaker/female/small gun carrying folks.

What matters most is that you have a gun you can shoot well, practice with lots and carry all the time.

 

[garandman]

The .40 S&W when used with top of the line high energy ammunition has a significantly greater penetrating ability as well as energy delivery ability than the 9mm. (Based on our actual testing), especially with hard barriers. (Now .357 Sig is also very interesting in that regards).

The 9mm (even in rapidly expanding hollow point) can penetrate some 16+ inches of ballistic gelatin, i.e. it has MORE THAN ENUF energy for any self defense target.

Unless you are defending yourself from a buffalo, even 9mm risks over penetation. 40 increases that risk. Its slightly increased diameter is more than offset by its muzle velocity / energy, to create significant over penetration risk.

You want "energy transfer" ....where the bullet remains in the target. Too much penetration is a bad thing. While 45ACP is problmatic from a capacity standpoint, the large, slow moving, heavy bullet is ideal for SD and energy transfer.

Bcuz of that, the 147 gr hollowpoint 9mm bullet is (one of) the best available mix of energy transfer AND magazine capacity. Some might argue for 158's, but theya re only marginally better.

 

[W54/XM-388]

The 9mm (even in rapidly expanding hollow point) can penetrate some 16+ inches of ballistic gelatin, i.e. it has MORE THAN ENUF energy for any self defense target.

Some folks think outside the box and do their own testing.
Ballistic gelatin is more of a "best case ever" situation for a bullet... add in some bones, odd angles, stuff encountered before the bullet can get to the gelatin and things start going differently.

Some folks also think about much more evolved enemies foreign & domestic that don't just stand still wearing a light shirt out in the open.
Once hard barriers get involved, you'll see the difference very quickly.

The reason 9mm is now king among civilians/LE is because of:

Ease of getting just about anyone to qualify with it
Cost of weapons and ammunition
Comfort for just about anyone having to fire lots of it at paper targets for training / qualification.

All very valid points.

In the end you need to carry something you can shoot accurately with and practice with.

However if you can carry, shoot accurately and practice with something better.....

 

[garandman]

Some folks think outside the box and do their own testing.
Ballistic gelatin is more of a "best case ever" situation for a bullet... add in some bones, odd angles, stuff encountered before the bullet can get to the gelatin and things start going differently.

Some folks also think about much more evolved enemies foreign & domestic that don't just stand still wearing a light shirt out in the open.
Once hard barriers get involved, you'll see the difference very quickly.

I knew you'd harp on the BG refernence. Its designed to simualte penetration in humans, cuz shooting actual humans to do this kind of testing if frowned upon. And its often tested with a clothing like material in front, due to the fact ppl seldom walk around nekkid... and also to test for clogging of the hollow point that turns it basiaclly into ball ammo.

9mm over penatration is a real world consideration ... even when shooting things with bones. I am drawng on real world "testing" ... actual real world shootings... police, personal self defense, homicides, etc. 40 S&W has even greater risk of over penetration...in the real world

The likelihood of me encountering ppl wearing body armor is minimal. Irrelevant, really. To me, anyway.

On the whole, 9mm 147 grain does 95% of what I'll ever need it to do...while minimuzing risks of overpenetration.

I come at this from the perspective of someone who was SLED certified in South Carolina to teach concealed carry (have since relocated) , and its related concerns and practices.

If yer in combat / facing ppl with body armor ....feel free to disregard. That's an entirely differnt discussion.

 

[sako17]

I can see a gun shop offering less for a trade because it is a 40. The round is just less popular now while at the same time the market is flooded with police trade-ins from Sig, Glock, S&W, etc. Hard for a gun shop to resell a used 40 cal pistol when there are even less expensive ex-LEOs all over the place. Even on new guns, the 40 cal version is often a bit less than the 9mm.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Over penetration is definitely a consideration yes and it is a very important one.

There is no perfect solution.
It will be a matter of what works best for each specific person and their specific situation.
If you are stuck with broad strokes only (like most LE these days), then the most common match is what you have to stick with.

However you can load down a hotter potential, but you can't load up a lower potential once you are already at the max.

 

[garandman]

Over penetration is definitely a consideration yes and it is a very important one.

There is no perfect solution.
.

In these discusions, I tend to harp on over penetration, cuz it was a major portion of my CWP instruction...teaching students that each bullet has a lawyer attached. Any bullet that goes thru its target and hits an innocent is a lifetime full of trouble for the CWP holder / civvy home defender. 9mm is a great choice for reducing that risk. In the home, pump action shotuns w/ birdshot are even better. Just racking the gun will send all but seriously hopped up crackheads running.

But quite right - there's no single solution to this discussion. ? ✌

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

I sold all my 40sw guns except one Glock. I converted it to 9mm and have shot about 800 rounds through it in that configuration. I don't regret getting out of 40sw one bit. If I ever for some reason need a 40sw instead of a 9mm, I can swap the parts in thr Glock back to 40sw.

 

[RTH1800]

I don’t compete with handguns they are strictly for the purpose of defense/training. I’m fully invested in the notion that with modern propellants and projectiles 9mm is the way to go. Cheaper to train with, and for the purpose of home defense it makes essentially the same sized hole with modern ammunition. If you look into the FBI reports of agent involved shootings in modern times most after action reports say they wish they had more bullets not more firepower and the 9mm gives that.

My .02 cents

The officer involved shooting reports that the most frequent response was a desire for more magazine capacity. The reason is no one wants to ask to be a better shot in the report.
Accurately placed bullets stop fights. Not power, magazine capacity or anything else.

 

[theLBC]

when it comes to handguns, it's not the size of the hole, but where you put it.

 

[j-moose32]

Wow thanks for the replies. I’m not a ballistics expert or pretend to be, but it seems the .40 is negligible in benefits at BEST over a 9mm.

 

[garandman]

The officer involved shooting reports that the most frequent response was a desire for more magazine capacity. The reason is no one wants to ask to be a better shot in the report.
Accurately placed bullets stop fights. Not power, magazine capacity or anything else.

Don't know which emoticon to post..... at the part about asking to be a better shot, or at the part about accurately placed bullets.

Spot. On.

 

[j-moose32]

I agree with the mindset about shot placement importance and that no pistol caliber is going to have movie type stopping power.

Officially sold my last Glock .40 now and will be looking into some 9mm. Really like the new glock45 in 9mm, and thinking of trying a RMR with it

 

[M8541Reaper]

Did the same a few years ago. Got rid of all of my pistols except two glocks (19 & 34).

 

[Magnumitis]

I agree with the mindset about shot placement importance and that no pistol caliber is going to have movie type stopping power.

Officially sold my last Glock .40 now and will be looking into some 9mm. Really like the new glock45 in 9mm, and thinking of trying a RMR with it

I'm hanging on to my one 23 I refinished with dura coat after it got shiny, along with some new trijicons. Just can't let it go, fits like a glove and points naturally, plus I have buckets of brass.

My most recent is a g45, feels great, points as naturally and doesn't have that half Moon cut out for mag grasp the gen 5 19 does.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

If recoil is an issue get a 9mm. It seems most shoot better with a 9, an many do even better with a 22lr.

It's not what you hit them with,
It's where you hit them at.

In a real gun fight,.... you can't miss fast enough to win no matter what the mag holds,...

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

In 2001 when we went to 10mm Glocks on a T&E basis at Clay County Sheriffs Office there were 2 shootings in the first week with a grand total of 3 rounds fired by Officers and 2 dead right there shitheads with 1 being through car windshield.

2 months later they went back to 9mm Glocks because of "recoil"...the next shooting had 19 rounds fired and no dead right there shithead.


Sincerely,
Theis

 

[garandman]

Hi,

In 2001 when we went to 10mm Glocks on a T&E basis at Clay County Sheriffs Office there were 2 shootings in the first week with a grand total of 3 rounds fired by Officers and 2 dead right there shitheads with 1 being through car windshield.

2 months later they went back to 9mm Glocks because of "recoil"...the next shooting had 19 rounds fired and no dead right there shithead.


Sincerely,
Theis

Anecdotal shooting samples are fun.

Likely had more to do with the skill of the officer and shot placement than caliber. The world is FULL of dead pooheads via 9mm and live pooheads grazed with 45ACP and larger..

 

[j-moose32]

If recoil is an issue get a 9mm. It seems most shoot better with a 9, an many do even better with a 22lr.

It's not what you hit them with,
It's where you hit them at.

In a real gun fight,.... you can't miss fast enough to win no matter what the mag holds,...

Agree for sure, especially about you can’t miss fast enough to win. I shoot my Glock 22 in .40 fairly well I’d like to think. I wouldn’t be making a switch due to recoil, just would be switching because 9mm and everything that comes with it is better than .40.

By better I mean overall, mag capacity, ease to shoot, ballistics etc all together. All the talk about 9mm has me thinking a lot, and it seems that a lot of people smarter than me say 9mm is the way to go vs a .40

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I left NJ a for Upstate NY in 1998, and when I found out what was involved in getting a handgun permit in NY, I decided no handgun was worth tolerating that sort of governmental abuse. My Son-in-Law then acquired a series 70 Gold Cup 45ACP, a Beretta 92FS with adjustable sights and steel plate backed grips, and a High Standard Supermatic Trophy II, all free of charge.

When arriving in AZ in 2016, I set about acquiring new handguns to replace what I'd given up in NY. But first, I made a decision not to haphazardly collect a bunch of different chamberings. Where possible, they would all be 9mm Luger.

For the most part, I've stuck to that intention with but a single exception, an S&W M&P .380 Bodyguard for Celia. Due to injury and arthritis, she can no longer rack the M&P 9 Shield I'd gotten her.

I'd recommend the .40 to others, based on better performance statistics, but for us, 9mm is fine.

When I do get my new 1911, it will be an S/A Range Officer 9mm.

My Ruger American Pistol 9 Pro has the Glock type trigger safety and a 17rd mag. It shares magazines with my Ruger PC Carbine.

Greg

 

[DannC]

The old over penetration is and always has been a crock. When most shootings by cops and I would guess civilians only hit their target about thirty percent of the time.

What happens to the missed shots is of greater concern. The bullet that passes through sixteen inches of flesh and bone will not have enough energy to cause any serious harm to anyone even if they are within contact with the person shot.

I would like to see the data for these shoot throughs. I'm guessing there is not much.

 

[garandman]

What happens to the missed shots is of greater concern.

No one said otherwise.

The bullet that passes through sixteen inches of flesh and bone will not have enough energy to cause any serious harm to anyone even if they are within contact with the person shot.

I would like to see the data for these shoot throughs. I'm guessing there is not much.

That misses the point. The point is any bullet that over penetrates and goes through its target has not Had the most efficient transfer of energy.

16" of flesh and bone? Who are you shoot ing? Fat Albert? .

 

[WATERWALKER]

I’ll be the first to admit that .40 S&W, .45 ACP & 10 MM all deliver more kinetic energy on target, ie more stopping power than 9 MM.

After you figure in the benefits of shooting a 9 MM such as increased capacity, less recoil, less muzzle flip, more time on target (think front sight) & increased accuracy its hard to argue the results. Again, while 9 MM doesn’t deliver the “stopping power” of the above mentioned cartridges, it is adequate.

While I’m a huge fan of the .45 ACP I won’t argue the benefits of shooting a 9 MM. The “big bore” pistols don’t kill the bad guy any deader than a 9 MM. Dead is dead. Period.

You don’t get style points in the real world for shooting a big bore pistol. If that we’re the case we’d all be talking about carrying the S&W .500 or .460 in varying lengths.

 

[DannC]

No one said otherwise.



That misses the point. The point is any bullet that over penetrates and goes through its target has not Had the most efficient transfer of energy.

16" of flesh and bone? Who are you shoot ing? Fat Albert? .

Ask any hunter if he prefers his game animal with or or two holes. Hint two holes causes them to bleed out faster.

Also from my left armpit to right I am fifteen inches. At the belly about seventeen, 5'11 and 210lbs. pretty average.

 

[garandman]

Ask any hunter if he prefers his game animal with or or two holes. Hint two holes causes them to bleed out faster.

Most every rifle caliber will be thru and thru. So thats apples and orangutans.

Ya dont want thru and thru with pistol calibers. Both to maximize energy transfer and also so that the bullet doesn't present danger to other people.

Go ahead and stand behind someone being shot by the police and tell me if over penetration is not a Concern.

Every sensible responsible shooter is concerned about over penetration.

SMH.

 

[Veer_G]

This thread is starting to give me an urge for popcorn.

 

[garandman]

This thread is starting to give me an urge for popcorn.

LOL.

Yeah....stoopit me....wasting time trying to explain / convince that over penetration is a problem in a self defense situation.

In other shocking news.... water is wet.

I'm out. Not gonna derail this for the OP.

 

[Veer_G]

LOL.

Yeah....stoopit me....wasting time trying to explain / convince that over penetration is a problem in a self defense situation.

In other shocking news.... water is wet.

I'm out. Not gonna derail this for the OP.

Bye bye, Ike.

 

[BCX]

Don't drink the 9mm Kool Aid.... We have tested many SD calibers in ballistic gel w cloth and non cloth. Huge difference between 9 and 40. WE are limited to 10 round mags here so the 40 w Underwood 165 GD is my carry load on the street. 10 MM w hot hand loads or 45 Super Duper (low level 460 Rowland loads in 45 Super brass) for woods carry or hunting!

 

[W54/XM-388]

Go ahead and stand behind someone being shot by the police and tell me if over penetration is not a Concern.

I think if you happen to be standing behind someone being shot by the police, over penetration is not going to be what you are worried about...
Overpenetration means they actually hit the person they were shooting at and not you.

I would be way more worried about bullets going everywhere, bouncing off everything and hitting everyone else (Yes lots of examples available from the news). Or the person goes down finally and well the police still have bullets in their magazines.... lucky you... Not HA!

 

[Veer_G]

I think if you happen to be standing behind someone being shot by the police, over penetration is not going to be what you are worried about...
Overpenetration means they actually hit the person they were shooting at and not you.

I would be way more worried about bullets going everywhere, bouncing off everything and hitting everyone else (Yes lots of examples available from the news). Or the person goes down finally and well the police still have bullets in their magazines.... lucky you... Not HA!

Over-penetration is part and parcel of knowing one's target and what's beyond it. I'd just as soon get a center of mass hit if not getting one increases the likelihood that the target is going to do grievous bodily harm or worse.

An opinion has been expressed herein the thread based upon the advice of one instructor whose badge seems to have greatly impressed the poster. Sworn status is not the be all and end all of guarantees in such a case.

 

[j-moose32]

Sorry didn’t mean to start a shit storm but shoulda seen it coming. I had to put it out there and see though. Seems like everyone in LE world is going back to 9mm from .40 , saying it is all around better.

I’m know that straight ballistics wise there is better than 9mm of course. But I don’t know how practical it is to conceal Carry a 10mm.

I could reword it as ditching all my .40 for 9mm only. Not trying to say it is so advanced now that every other cartridge is a nerf gun lol just advanced enough to replace any guns I have in .40 with 9mm

 

[Veer_G]

Sorry didn’t mean to start a shit storm but shoulda seen it coming. I had to put it out there and see though. Seems like everyone in LE world is going back to 9mm from .40 , saying it is all around better.

I’m know that straight ballistics wise there is better than 9mm of course. But I don’t know how practical it is to conceal Carry a 10mm.

I could reword it as ditching all my .40 for 9mm only. Not trying to say it is so advanced now that every other cartridge is a nerf gun lol just advanced enough to replace any guns I have in .40 with 9mm

No sweat. Just a hyperventilating badge bunny off his meds.

 

[TheGerman]

 

[garandman]

No sweat. Just a hyperventilating badge bunny off his meds.

Experience, facts, data, logic > badges.

 

[Veer_G]

 

[garandman]

Yes, yer trolling. Thats obvious.

 

[Veer_G]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/sh-what-you-remember-from-the-past.6869465/