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Sidearms & Scatterguns Thoughts? 9mm 1911

natdscott

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Jun 13, 2008
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Hey guys,

I'm just looking for general discussion of your thoughts, brand/build experience, and so forth on 1911 pistols in 9mm. Good or bad, I am a pretty decent trigger puller, but not very knowledgeable on the 1911 parts/pieces front....don't own one. Yet.

I've been looking at the idea for awhile now, and may move it forward on the short list of purchases/plans.

As for me, I could possibly be convinced to do a Caspian/Schuemann build, but I'd also look at factory/small shop options, if quality. I need 100% function (at least as far as any 1911 is able), and accuracy at 50-100+ yards is pretty key to me. Weight is not really a concern, and 5" or 6" barrels are what I'm looking towards. I think I want a fully supported Clark/Lissner ramp?

What I'm not looking for is a pistol to EDC; I'm not looking to conceal; and I'm not looking for a "real man's 1911 in .45 like God intended it..." . I have a wonderful .357 if I feel the need for more than a 9mm.

Thanks!

-Nate
 
D41CD2B9-B6D1-4F78-A615-BEE83B24C8D9.jpeg

I recommend a STI Trojan or a Wilson combat cqb elite.
 
Hey guys,

I'm just looking for general discussion of your thoughts, brand/build experience, and so forth on 1911 pistols in 9mm. Good or bad, I am a pretty decent trigger puller, but not very knowledgeable on the 1911 parts/pieces front....don't own one. Yet.

I've been looking at the idea for awhile now, and may move it forward on the short list of purchases/plans.

As for me, I could possibly be convinced to do a Caspian/Schuemann build, but I'd also look at factory/small shop options, if quality. I need 100% function (at least as far as any 1911 is able), and accuracy at 50-100+ yards is pretty key to me. Weight is not really a concern, and 5" or 6" barrels are what I'm looking towards. I think I want a fully supported Clark/Lissner ramp?

What I'm not looking for is a pistol to EDC; I'm not looking to conceal; and I'm not looking for a "real man's 1911 in .45 like God intended it..." . I have a wonderful .357 if I feel the need for more than a 9mm.

Thanks!

-Nate

Hey Nate, I have a little experience with the 9 mm 1911. I had a extra series 70 colt 38 super laying around that we fitted a 9 mm Kart barrel to. After a little tinkering with OAL on my reloads and running Tripp magazines, it flat out runs. Shot it in a few matches and the weight of the all steel frame makes the recoil almost nonexistent. It's a blast to shoot and pretty easy to shoot well. I rarely shoot it much now a days, might have to blow the dust off of it and take it out for a spin. :) I shoot with a friend that almost exclusively uses a Springfield Armory Range Office in 9 mm. It's completely stock, have never seen it have a malfunction, and he's extremely competitive with it. I'm of the opinion that you don't have to spend a small fortune to get a reliable, accurate and competitive 9mm 1911.
 
I have an STI costa ludus 2011 in 9mm, it's the cat's ass. I also have a WC 45 acp 1911.

A 2011 in 9mm has minimal recoil. Just pick a good one.
 
I'm pretty sure you really don't want a 6" 9mm 1911. 5" is sluggish as is. A commander length is generally considered ideal.

If its not an edc, and not for concealment, what is it for? That will help.
Frankly, I've been down the 9mm 1911 road and I think its far from ideal. Obviously YMMV. If I was intent on one, the only way i would go today would be a Wilson.
 
Have you looked at the Wilson EDC X9? Those are really nice, I’ve been able to handle (but not shoot) one. That gun is on my short list of pistols to buy.
 
I had a Springfield Range Officer 9, it was a solid shooter, but I had to remove the ILS so the trigger was usable, for a little more money a Dan Wesson PM9 would be choice for a single stack. I now only shoot double stack 2011s, my STI Marauder hammers, it ain’t much bigger than a single stack, and hold 23+1, and is my winter carry piece, my competition pistol is a 9/40 SVI.
 
NightHawk Customs Heine Signature Competition. Five or six people have shot it without a hiccup. One other person had multiple failures to cycle all due to an inadequate grip. Very well put together pistol. Functions perfectly with various 115gr. bulk. The same functioning with 124gr. and more accurate. My carry ammo is Federal 124gr. Hydrashock and it has been one hundred percent reliable with better accuracy than any bulk.

What are you going to be shooting at that's fifty or one hundred yards away?
 
I've shot and seen my fair share of 9mm 1911s. If you want a 6" gun, I would be looking at a custom. Just go down in spring to make it less sluggish.

All magazines are gonna be tough to load and unload. The dawson/metalform mags are probably your best bet.

I would be thinking very long and hard before I bought an STI at this point in time.

The RIA guns are quite nice for how much they cost. Super reliable, decent accuracy. Gets you into the 1911 game for low cost.

The Springfield RO is a great gun. Needs some work to make it gaming ready if that is the long term goal.

The DW PM9 is probably my pick in the ~1000 bucks price range. Very nice pistols.

I probably wouldn't spend the money on a big name builder like a Wilson. You can get a better (or at least as nice) gun for significantly less money from some smaller custom builders. You can PM me if you want some names.

Schumann doesn't exist at this point in time. Don't try to order one of their barrels unless it is in stock from a third party retailer. They do shoot well though.

Barrel fit is one of most critical parts of a reliable 1911. If your builder doesn't understand that, run away.
 
If its not an edc, and not for concealment, what is it for?
N
What are you going to be shooting at that's fifty or one hundred yards away?
I'm guessing it is going to just be a range toy or match gun. Beyond that, if the requirements are what they are, then we can still make recommendations based on that. A 6" would be an excellent gun for playing at long range.
 
From experience, the Springfield Armory 1911 in .45 ACP is a a good base. I have considered a 9 mm RSO for Bull's Eye.

I added a sight, a shorter trigger, and flat mainspring housing to the Mil Spec in .45. The sear hammer and springs are factory. I skipped the 9 mm with the CMP ammo change for Service Pistol.

The only "problem" I've had is feeding 185 grain semi was cutters. They are too short. 185 jhp feeds great.
 
STI Trojan and tune the trigger and recoil spring.

Also have a 2011 Tactical 5.0 that is getting better with work - have blown out single hole groups at 25 from a rest. That was an eye opener.
 
I’ve had lots of 1911s. Mostly.45 but one .38 super and my latest is a 9mm. Most of the 1911s have been Kimber but have had a Wilson and Les Baer. Have had Colts, Springers etc but the latest 1911 is a Dan Wesson PM9. It is a Very solid and smooth pistol. After 300 rounds to break in it has become very reliable. It came with a 4 lb trigger that felt great but I had it tuned down to 2 1/2 lbs for competition. It’s the smoothest, most accurate 1911 I’ve owned. They’re not cheap but come ready to run, like a custom (Wilson, LB, Nighthawk) and 1/2 to 1/3 the cost. Most guys that buy a Springfield or Kimber end up spending lots to put high end parts in them and still have a good pistol but not a great pistol. DW Valor or PM
 
sti has their 2011 line (1911 double stacks) that are very widely used in uspsa, 3 gun, etc. same 1911 ergo's and trigger, but extra capacity. brazos custom has their HP STI Edge where they swap out a couple of parts, do a trigger job and some reliability work. highly recommended, mine's been perfect. but so have most of my other sti's, or damn close.
 
I want to post a thanks!

I AM here reading your discussions...just trying to keep mouth shut and ears open for the moment.

I will say...I'm the kind of guy that doesn't mind shooting pistols at 200 yards.

As for "if not EDC...". Well, probably it will shoot some targets and steel, it will almost certainly kill a thing or two (since I don't own a firearm that doesn't, eventually), and serve in a sort of "short rifle" role when I don't feel like taking, or it is not practical to take, a rifle.

Like some of the non urban guys in the west, I have the distinct pleasure of open carrying whatever weaponry I feel like in the fields and woods.

Having north of 10,000 rounds through a S&W 41, I'm becoming proficient with the controls and grip, so a 1911 is the clear successor. That process was entirely intentional.

So here we are!
 
Kimber factory 38 Super - shoots 9 mm just fine in a pinch and get the 9 mm conversion to go with it for ultimate accuracy. One ragged hole at 15 yds and 1" at 50 yds is hard to beat.
 
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I've only had my STI for about 4 months. It has ran without and problems so far. It eats any kind of ammo like my wilson does so far.

I used to shoot USPSA single stack and have been aware of STI guns since that time. I think they have gotten better over the years and would not hesitate to EDC one now.

The only recommendation I would give...it not to buy a cheap one. Save your penny's and buy a good one. They will last a lifetime.
 
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I have had an STI rangerII in .40 for about 5 years now. Probably only about 5k through it, but no problems so far.
 
I'm pretty sure you really don't want a 6" 9mm 1911. 5" is sluggish as is. A commander length is generally considered ideal.

If its not an edc, and not for concealment, what is it for? That will help.
Frankly, I've been down the 9mm 1911 road and I think its far from ideal. Obviously YMMV. If I was intent on one, the only way i would go today would be a Wilson.

What do you mean by a "5" is sluggish"?
 
What do you mean by a "5" is sluggish"?
The slide is moving fairly slowly, and tends to "ka-chunk" back and forth. Most guys who shoot them seriously have gone to a commander size (really 4", up to 4.25") slide to reduce slide weight. Wilson was one of the guys on the forefront of figuring out how to make a 9mm 1911 as reliable as possible. A 5" works, but maybe not as well as the smaller ones. Just the opposite of a .45, in that sense.
 
The slide is moving fairly slowly, and tends to "ka-chunk" back and forth. Most guys who shoot them seriously have gone to a commander size (really 4", up to 4.25") slide to reduce slide weight. Wilson was one of the guys on the forefront of figuring out how to make a 9mm 1911 as reliable as possible. A 5" works, but maybe not as well as the smaller ones. Just the opposite of a .45, in that sense.
This just isn't true in reality.

Go down in recoil spring weight to get your slide speed up. Full size guns that are tuned correctly are perfectly reliable.
 
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It's funny. I never even pondered that. It makes complete sense...I just know a lot about what makes AR and bolt rifles tick.

So I guess an alloy of some kind would make a better long slide for sub-caliber 1911s. Not gonna happen...but it would.
 
This just isn't true in reality.

Go down in recoil spring weight to get your slide speed up. Full size guns that are tuned correctly are perfectly reliable.

I never said the 5" guns were unreliable. I said they were sluggish. No reason to be rude.
 
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Dan Wesson PM9 should be at the top of your list!

Great following with USPSA shooters. I've been shooting one this year with Wilson Vickers mags and it has been 100% reliable. Beautiful gun. Still need a bushing wrench to move the bushing at a few thousand rounds.
 
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For the OP, here is one two of my friends did. Lots of good info on this blog if you look around. Unfortunately he died in 2016, so no more.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/9352


Thinking about it further, I believe Rob Leatham shoots a 6" 9mm at Bianchi. If your main interest is open carry, long range accuracy, the slide's cycling properties may not matter as much. Of course, his guns are far from factory stock, so it depends how badly you want to get into this.
 
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I wasn't trying to be rude. Just pointing out a simple fact. Yes, 5 and 6 inch 9mms are sluggish... if they are set up incorrectly. Once they ARE set up correctly (that being 8-11ish pound recoil springs), then they are one of the softest, flattest, and funnest guns around.

Yes, I'm pretty sure he does shoot a 6" 9mm for bianchi. Nearly everyone does in the metallic division (similar to USPSA Limited guns, only single stacks), for the extra sight radius on the 25, 35, and 50 yard targets. When the match comes down to total X count, you gotta take every advantage you can get.

Sorry I was rude, that wasn't my intention.
 
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The slide is moving fairly slowly, and tends to "ka-chunk" back and forth. Most guys who shoot them seriously have gone to a commander size (really 4", up to 4.25") slide to reduce slide weight. Wilson was one of the guys on the forefront of figuring out how to make a 9mm 1911 as reliable as possible. A 5" works, but maybe not as well as the smaller ones. Just the opposite of a .45, in that sense.

Put everything against the clock. This debunks a lot of myths. We have mixed speed, accuracy, reliability in the conversation...

The 4 1911s/2011s below are as different as I could pull off the wall. Akai Limited 40, STI Marauder 9mm, Kimber Raptor II, Sig C3 Compact.



Speed. Maintaining A zone at 7 yards, my fastest splits are with the Marauder at around 0.12. I have north of 50K rounds through this gun and not a single malfunction. The only other gun equally as fast for me is the Benelli M4 that I can also get to 0.12. I can get an AR down to 0.10 on rare occasion.

Point here being you are not going to outrun the gun when it is set up correctly.

The Akai stays around 0.14 - 0.16 due to major power factor. The Raptor is about the same speed though the A zone % may drop a tad (b/c of me, not the gun). The C3, with that short slide and alloy frame, is the slowest simply because it is the snappiest. The C3 has the fastest cycle time but the slowest splits.

@Gooldylocks is spot on when talking about spring tuning. This will affect speed, accuracy, and reliability. Too slow of a spring and you are waiting all day for the sights to come back. Too fast and it will push the nose down and you will be waiting for the sight to come back up. When you get a 1911 buy a spring pack and go up and down the weight scale. The differences are significant. You will probably need different springs for different ammo.

On a gun like the C3 the cycle time can be so quick that it will come forward before the magazine has elevated the next round to the lips and you will get a jam. Other than old, worn out mags this is the only place I have seen the need for magazine spring tuning on a pistol.

Here is a good video on recoil spring tuning with some slo-mo shots demonstrating the above. I want to make the point about personal preferences. Some people prefer a snappier feel. Some people really like a sluggish feel and will use 147s in a 9mm to achieve this. Line up a bunch of GMs and you will see different preferences. Just go out and have fun experimenting. Against the clock, of course. I keep repeating this because perception about what is happening in those hundredths of a second may be quite different than what the clock says.



An interesting design note... the Akai is stroked. The difference in feel when the slide comes all the way back is quite noticeable. It's softer. My splits are barely faster when using a stroked versus/unstroked gun. However, I can go back and forth between minor and major power factor (USPSA one day and steel challenge the next) and not have to change springs. I should change them, but I don't have to for the gun to function just fine.

Draw speed. Whether it be mediocre me or Latham or any of my friends that are on the US team, slide length makes no difference in draw speed. If it does, you may need to work on your draw technique. Sometime people let their elbow go too far from their body at the beginning of the draw stroke and that can slow things down. When chasing M in production I went from a G17 to a G34 and thought for sure time to first shot would be a bit slower. Not true. With that lesson in mind, when I went from the Marauder to the DVC 3G I expected time to sights on target to be the same and it was. In both cases of going to the longer slide my scores on 50 yard shots went up right away. The only practical difference is for concealed carry, where just 0.5" can make a huge difference.

What all of this means is that you need a shot timer, lots of springs, some good instruction, and as many different 1911s as you can possibly afford.

To answer the OPs questions, STI has some great choices. I have 1 for every day of the week and have never had to send one back. I know people that have and the customer service has been great. If going custom I would pick Atlas or Akai, in that order.
 
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I have not found lightly sprung 9mm 1911's to meet my reliability requirements. If you have one that can go north of 50,000 rds without a malfunction, you have the only one I've ever heard of, that's for sure. Regardless of spring weight. I don't even know if I have ever seen a full USPSA match where a 9mm 1911 didn't choke.

My interests are different, and so my choices are different.
 
I have not found lightly sprung 9mm 1911's to meet my reliability requirements. If you have one that can go north of 50,000 rds without a malfunction, you have the only one I've ever heard of, that's for sure. Regardless of spring weight. I don't even know if I have ever seen a full USPSA match where a 9mm 1911 didn't choke.

My interests are different, and so my choices are different.

I don’t care for lightly spring 1911’s either. Who’s post are you referring to?
 
So now here's another question.

IF a guy were having a build put together with a bunch of Caspian CM and related parts,.... WHO are your suggestions for somebody to do it?

For this, I'd like good quality work (but not crazy show-piece level) especially on accuracy/function, and I'd like mid-level pricing if possible. (I really like Ted Yost's work, but I intend to shoot this thing heavily, not pass it along unharmed.)

Also, related: So I understand Dan Wesson will do some custom stuff? How's that work? and cost? wait time?
 
There are better host for the 9MM Ctg than a 1911.
There are better Ctg's for the 1911 than the 9MM.
Unless of course you are going for the worst of both worlds.
:)
 
Do elaborate, please. I'm not really "into" innuendo when I admittedly do not know where I'm going quite yet.

I HAVE considered .38 Super.

What's the word on firing 9mm from .38 Super chambers? I have heard it is done, but I've heard lots of bullshit...
 
The 1911 is a large, normally heavy pistol in its full sized, steel framed form. It has virtues and faults. Fans of the 1911 (like me) overlook shortcomings of the 107 year old design and extol it's virtues. One of which is the .45ACP cartridge. We have seen so much fall over and die in front of it that in our biased opinion nothing could be better.

The size issue is largely created by the .45 ACP cartridge. I simply would not dream of carrying all that iron for a 9MM. If I ever jump ship, (I won't) for a 9mm I will darn sure take advantage of some other modern advances like polymer frames, smaller size, larger capacity mags, shorter barrels, striker firing etc.
This is just my opinion.
 
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But I already have Glock, Sig, and S&W in my favor if I want a 9mm in some other form.

What do you think about Super?
 
I'm sure people will disagree but I've had three 38 Supers, two 1911's, one a full custom and one custom 2011.

Let's just say there is a reason for 38 Super Comp brass.
 
I love my 1911’s and one in 9mm is an amazing range piece because of the lower recoil and there are extremely accurate. I have 2 les Baer and a Cogan Custom. They have become my favorite pistols to punch paper and bang some steel
 
Pictures of my 3
 

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I run a Kimber Stainless II 9mm in IDPA ESP division. My gun was fit impressively well in the barrel lockup and slide to frame fit for a production gun. I did my usual 3-1/2lb trigger job on it and I have no problem holding the down zero zone at 20 yards if I do my part. The biggest challenge of getting a 9mm 1911 to run reliably is the magazines. The 9mm cartridge is tapered .020" from bottom to top, so in a single stack magazine fully topped off, there is a lot of space under the front of the top round which makes it prone to nosediving. I only run the Springfield 9 round magazines made by Metalform. These push the rounds to the back of the magazine which leaves room for a "helper" feed ramp to be utilized at the top front of the magazine tube. This is what cures the top round nosedive issue that plagues most 9mm 1911s. With these magazines, my gun runs 100 percent, even with hollow points.

My best spring combination for flat cycling with no muzzle dipping on double taps is a Wolff 10lb variable recoil spring and a 15lb mainspring. My load is a 135gr coated cast round nose running 1040fps. This gives me a 140,000 power factor that knocks down steel activators very reliably and it provides enough "snap" to cycle the 5" slide without feeling sluggish.
 
The 1911 is a large, normally heavy pistol in its full sized, steel framed form. It has virtues and faults. Fans of the 1911 (like me) overlook shortcomings of the 107 year old design and extol it's virtues. One of which is the .45ACP cartridge. We have seen so much fall over and die in front of it that in our biased opinion nothing could be better.

The size issue is largely created by the .45 ACP cartridge. I simply would not dream of carrying all that iron for a 9MM. If I ever jump ship, (I won't) for a 9mm I will darn sure take advantage of some other modern advances like polymer frames, smaller size, larger capacity mags, shorter barrels, striker firing etc.
This is just my opinion.

Lots of good points on what your use case is.

I opt for a 2011 for almost everything (9mm for 3G, 40 or 45 for carry, 40 for USPSA) except the gun I take along when in marine and/or sandy environments (226). A lot of people hate the grip size of a 2011. I happen to like pistols like the STI DVC Carry for almost any CC (Akai made mine) but have been known to carry a full sized one. When I really need to trim down I go to a commander sized 1911.

I would encourage anyone not experienced with all of this to just spend some time with other peoples guns. Of any small arm, pistols take the most effort to become skilled with. Take the time to find what works for you, and what variation is best for this or that situation. In this process do not ignore what the best competition shooters in the world use. As @rth1800 did, form your own opinions.
 
Do elaborate, please. I'm not really "into" innuendo when I admittedly do not know where I'm going quite yet.

I HAVE considered .38 Super.

What's the word on firing 9mm from .38 Super chambers? I have heard it is done, but I've heard lots of bullshit...

IMHO, the best use for 38 Super is in an open gun because it expels more gas (than say, a 9mm) which gives you a muzzle jump advantage when using a comp. Some of my friends run 9mm major because they don't want to pick up brass.
 
So now here's another question.

IF a guy were having a build put together with a bunch of Caspian CM and related parts,.... WHO are your suggestions for somebody to do it?

For this, I'd like good quality work (but not crazy show-piece level) especially on accuracy/function, and I'd like mid-level pricing if possible. (I really like Ted Yost's work, but I intend to shoot this thing heavily, not pass it along unharmed.)

Also, related: So I understand Dan Wesson will do some custom stuff? How's that work? and cost? wait time?

There are quite a few good one out there. Aside from the 2 I already mentioned (I have no idea if they will build off of your parts), take a look at Matt McLearn. His guns are nice to look at but are built with accuracy and reliability first.

https://mclearncustomguns.com/
 
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I just jumped on the 20l11 style and love it. Picked up the STI Omni in 9 MM and couldn't be happier. Only shot 350 rounds so far but not one hiccup. this is my first 9 and first with a compensator, damn thing shoots FLAT and SMOOTH!
 
I personally am looking at a 9mm 1911. I’d choose a commander, or officer size for EDC with an aluminum frame. An all steel for high volume shooting. A properly tuned government model would be a good range toy, or a stand in for cheaper training IMO. I’d save the government sized frames for larger calibers. That’s just me though.
 
I run the colt 1911 commander in 9mm, has 5000+ rds down the pipe. Ive replaced a lot of parts with wilson combat over the years but i would highly recommend. It was great out of the box but has aged even better. Very fun on the range, very accurate, cheaper to shoot than 45.
 
Really happy with my STI 3 Gun - thought for might be a problem as I have medium sized hands - but it's very comfortable.
 

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