I've got a FN/Win 70 barreled action that I'm thinking of having rebarreled and I was wondering what everyone thoughts of action truing are? I'm sure truing the face of the action is a good idea, but I don't see where I'd be gaining anything with single pointing the threads, or lapping the bolt. Although maybe I'm wrong, what do you all say?
Gunsmithing Thoughts on action "truing"
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
i say that if you put a 10 grand engine into a rusty old muscle car it is still a rusty old car
so if you take a factory high production action and put a top
of the line stock,barrel and scope it still has a factory
action that is my .02
i say that if you put a 10 grand engine into a rusty old muscle car it is still a rusty old car
so if you take a factory high production action and put a top
of the line stock,barrel and scope it still has a factory
action that is my .02
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
The whole point of action truing is to get the barrel threads, the action face, and the bolt lugs concentric or perpendicular to each other, as the case may be. If there is any misalignment in any of these, then either the barrel is locking up cockeyed, or the bolt is only bearing on one lug. If you only have one lug bearing, upon firing the chamber pressure will press back hard enough to bring both lugs into contact, and in the process, ring your bolt, and by extension your barrel like a tuning fork. If both lugs are bearing evenly, you don't get that effect.
- Cameron
The whole point of action truing is to get the barrel threads, the action face, and the bolt lugs concentric or perpendicular to each other, as the case may be. If there is any misalignment in any of these, then either the barrel is locking up cockeyed, or the bolt is only bearing on one lug. If you only have one lug bearing, upon firing the chamber pressure will press back hard enough to bring both lugs into contact, and in the process, ring your bolt, and by extension your barrel like a tuning fork. If both lugs are bearing evenly, you don't get that effect.
- Cameron
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
Spend the money and have it trued.
Stacked Tolerances is all I'm going to say.
Spend the money and have it trued.
Stacked Tolerances is all I'm going to say.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
Face the action, lap the lugs, unless you are chasing benchrest accuracy, and are prepared to spend the money that you would spend on a custom action anyway, this is the route to go. Odds are high that your factory action will shoot under 1/2 MOA with a nice barrel and a good chamber job anyway, but the facing and lapping will assure it.
DD
Face the action, lap the lugs, unless you are chasing benchrest accuracy, and are prepared to spend the money that you would spend on a custom action anyway, this is the route to go. Odds are high that your factory action will shoot under 1/2 MOA with a nice barrel and a good chamber job anyway, but the facing and lapping will assure it.
DD
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1shot2kill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i say that if you put a 10 grand engine into a rusty old muscle car it is still a rusty old car
so if you take a factory high production action and put a top
of the line stock,barrel and scope it still has a factory
action that is my .02</div></div>
And I say, for cars, if it runs faster than everything else on the track, that is what I care about. And for guns, if it outshoots everything else out there, then that is what I care about.
But to the OP, go with the custom so that everyone can see your bolt flutes. They look cool.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1shot2kill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i say that if you put a 10 grand engine into a rusty old muscle car it is still a rusty old car
so if you take a factory high production action and put a top
of the line stock,barrel and scope it still has a factory
action that is my .02</div></div>
And I say, for cars, if it runs faster than everything else on the track, that is what I care about. And for guns, if it outshoots everything else out there, then that is what I care about.
But to the OP, go with the custom so that everyone can see your bolt flutes. They look cool.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
... but on a serious note... what DebosDave said. At minimum, it is just for piece of mind, at most, you will see significant improvement in accuracy. I wouldn't spend the money on a rebarrel for an action that hasn't been trued. You could be throwing good money after bad.
... but on a serious note... what DebosDave said. At minimum, it is just for piece of mind, at most, you will see significant improvement in accuracy. I wouldn't spend the money on a rebarrel for an action that hasn't been trued. You could be throwing good money after bad.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
Truing your action will only add $100-$150 to your rebarrel costs, is it worth taking a chance and skipping it for that price?
Truing your action will only add $100-$150 to your rebarrel costs, is it worth taking a chance and skipping it for that price?
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
Some rifles need it, some are already pretty much that way from the factory. It depends on the skills, resources, and commitment of the worker(s) who made it.
When we got the three basic Savage 10FP Ghost Dancer Project rifles from Savage, a close friend; who is a master mchinist in a multi-million dollar R&D toolmaking and model making facility, took them down to individual parts and mic'ed them out. They were true, period, so much so that he commented it would unproductive to do any further work on them.
He was especially appreciative of the threading employed in the rifles; saying that he felt he might not be able to improve on them at all.
As a further control against having been given a bunch of 'ringers', he did the same with his Son's 10FP rifle, an identical model, but already in his possession through normal procurement sources. It demonstrated exactly the same degree of high adherence to excellent production standards.
Then, since they were already completely apart, and being the guy he was, he went ahead and retrued all the machining anyway.
He's rebuilt and upgraded a lot of guns, and his take on the Savages vs the Remingtons in his experience was 'night and day'.
I'm not saying it's not worth doing, nor am I saying that any major manufacturer can be taken simply at face value.
Truing is about fixing what's wrong. Sometimes, there's not all that much wrong.
Greg
Some rifles need it, some are already pretty much that way from the factory. It depends on the skills, resources, and commitment of the worker(s) who made it.
When we got the three basic Savage 10FP Ghost Dancer Project rifles from Savage, a close friend; who is a master mchinist in a multi-million dollar R&D toolmaking and model making facility, took them down to individual parts and mic'ed them out. They were true, period, so much so that he commented it would unproductive to do any further work on them.
He was especially appreciative of the threading employed in the rifles; saying that he felt he might not be able to improve on them at all.
As a further control against having been given a bunch of 'ringers', he did the same with his Son's 10FP rifle, an identical model, but already in his possession through normal procurement sources. It demonstrated exactly the same degree of high adherence to excellent production standards.
Then, since they were already completely apart, and being the guy he was, he went ahead and retrued all the machining anyway.
He's rebuilt and upgraded a lot of guns, and his take on the Savages vs the Remingtons in his experience was 'night and day'.
I'm not saying it's not worth doing, nor am I saying that any major manufacturer can be taken simply at face value.
Truing is about fixing what's wrong. Sometimes, there's not all that much wrong.
Greg
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
Savage actions use a floating bolt head. That pretty much precludes the need for any bolt lug truing or lapping when rebarreling. The Savage rifles that I've seen have been uniformly excellent in the area of machining since Coburn took the helm. They've got a little ways to go in the cosmetics dept. as far as I'm concerned, but that certainly doesn't effect their accuracy
But to answer the OP's question, the gunsmiths who routinely do my work will not install a high-end custom barrel on an action without truing the action. It's a different story when merely replacing the barrel with another factory barrel. That proceedure might be condidered more in the repair category.
Savage actions use a floating bolt head. That pretty much precludes the need for any bolt lug truing or lapping when rebarreling. The Savage rifles that I've seen have been uniformly excellent in the area of machining since Coburn took the helm. They've got a little ways to go in the cosmetics dept. as far as I'm concerned, but that certainly doesn't effect their accuracy
But to answer the OP's question, the gunsmiths who routinely do my work will not install a high-end custom barrel on an action without truing the action. It's a different story when merely replacing the barrel with another factory barrel. That proceedure might be condidered more in the repair category.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
If your going that far... you might as well go all the way!
If your going that far... you might as well go all the way!
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
I have been truing actions for 10 years, and I think most of it is a waste of time.
But if you are paying the same guy to do that as cut the chamber, the money for the truing with re enforce that the chamber should be cut concentric to the bore in front of the chambers.
That extra money could then yield real dividends in accuracy.
What makes me suspicious is my 1917 Sav 99 with a transplanted benchrest barrel getting .3 moa groups. That old lever action has few parallel or perpendicular lines to true.
I have been truing actions for 10 years, and I think most of it is a waste of time.
But if you are paying the same guy to do that as cut the chamber, the money for the truing with re enforce that the chamber should be cut concentric to the bore in front of the chambers.
That extra money could then yield real dividends in accuracy.
What makes me suspicious is my 1917 Sav 99 with a transplanted benchrest barrel getting .3 moa groups. That old lever action has few parallel or perpendicular lines to true.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
I have two push feed M70 Winchesters, both will shoot 1/2 MOA with the right loads, this is with premium barrels, stocks, handloads, and optics. True they are not benchrest level rifles, but they make great tactical repeating rifles.
I have two push feed M70 Winchesters, both will shoot 1/2 MOA with the right loads, this is with premium barrels, stocks, handloads, and optics. True they are not benchrest level rifles, but they make great tactical repeating rifles.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
I think it's a complete waste of time for a tactical rifle.
A bolt gun is a tube with a cap in the back. And it's way more important that the tube be straight than the cap.
Some tips are legitimate accuracy improvers...like improving the consistency of one's reloading process. But something like cleaning a few thousandths off the action here or there? You'll never see or measure that on the paper. From the perspective of the guy assembling the rifle, of course you want it as square and true as you can get it...but from a realistic perspective, I'd rather have a few hundred bullets and go to the range and practice than give it to a machinist to clean up an already square action, especially in the modern era of CNC and quality control.
The stacked tolerances comment is spot on, but I suspect one would need complex measuring tools to find any significant "tolerance" related imperfection.
My advice is worth what you paid for it, though.
I think it's a complete waste of time for a tactical rifle.
A bolt gun is a tube with a cap in the back. And it's way more important that the tube be straight than the cap.
Some tips are legitimate accuracy improvers...like improving the consistency of one's reloading process. But something like cleaning a few thousandths off the action here or there? You'll never see or measure that on the paper. From the perspective of the guy assembling the rifle, of course you want it as square and true as you can get it...but from a realistic perspective, I'd rather have a few hundred bullets and go to the range and practice than give it to a machinist to clean up an already square action, especially in the modern era of CNC and quality control.
The stacked tolerances comment is spot on, but I suspect one would need complex measuring tools to find any significant "tolerance" related imperfection.
My advice is worth what you paid for it, though.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
I've seen a couple of factory rifles with barrels visibly pointing off to the right or left. Get the right smith spend the money.
I've seen a couple of factory rifles with barrels visibly pointing off to the right or left. Get the right smith spend the money.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd rather have a few hundred bullets and go to the range and practice than give it to a machinist to clean up an already square action, especially in the modern era of CNC and quality control.</div></div>
so is remington using this modern cnc equipment and quality control you speak of? already square action?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd rather have a few hundred bullets and go to the range and practice than give it to a machinist to clean up an already square action, especially in the modern era of CNC and quality control.</div></div>
so is remington using this modern cnc equipment and quality control you speak of? already square action?
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
From the looks of the last few new actions I have built on the answer is Hell NO. A couple of actions I have done lately have been so bad that a PTG mandrel tap would not completely true up the threads forcing me to do it in the lathe. I have not seen any of the older actions this outta square.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd rather have a few hundred bullets and go to the range and practice than give it to a machinist to clean up an already square action, especially in the modern era of CNC and quality control.</div></div>
so is remington using this modern cnc equipment and quality control you speak of? already square action? </div></div>
From the looks of the last few new actions I have built on the answer is Hell NO. A couple of actions I have done lately have been so bad that a PTG mandrel tap would not completely true up the threads forcing me to do it in the lathe. I have not seen any of the older actions this outta square.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd rather have a few hundred bullets and go to the range and practice than give it to a machinist to clean up an already square action, especially in the modern era of CNC and quality control.</div></div>
so is remington using this modern cnc equipment and quality control you speak of? already square action?
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
Guys, I've measured every Remington 700 I have ever built on. The receiver faces are cut with a saw, the threads have taper in them. All of the receivers I've seen have all been out of square and nothing was concentric, perpendicular or parallel. If a .50" moa rifle is all your after, spin a barrel on it and run with it. If you want a precision rifle that'll shoot in the .2"s or better, you'd best true the receiver with a single point method, replace the recoil lug with a precision ground lug and cross your T's and dot your I's while doing the machine work. If not, you're just making noise.
You’re only saving at best $250.00 by not truing the receiver. My question is why chance it.
A waste of time.................................I think not!
Guys, I've measured every Remington 700 I have ever built on. The receiver faces are cut with a saw, the threads have taper in them. All of the receivers I've seen have all been out of square and nothing was concentric, perpendicular or parallel. If a .50" moa rifle is all your after, spin a barrel on it and run with it. If you want a precision rifle that'll shoot in the .2"s or better, you'd best true the receiver with a single point method, replace the recoil lug with a precision ground lug and cross your T's and dot your I's while doing the machine work. If not, you're just making noise.
You’re only saving at best $250.00 by not truing the receiver. My question is why chance it.
A waste of time.................................I think not!
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
My FN action had a bolt that only made contact on one lug and had folded over threads. Skipping truing the receiver would have saved $100 on the barrel install and action job. It would have made no sense not to, regardless of the group think in this thread.
My FN action had a bolt that only made contact on one lug and had folded over threads. Skipping truing the receiver would have saved $100 on the barrel install and action job. It would have made no sense not to, regardless of the group think in this thread.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
Everything square equals consistency ,consistency is accuracy ,accuracy is the goal.
Everything square equals consistency ,consistency is accuracy ,accuracy is the goal.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
If you have a factory barrel will the barrel still fit properly if you re-cut the action threads? If you re-cut the factory threads and try to use the factory barrel, will you have to set the barrel back and re-chamber? I am not opposed to the idea of setting a barrel back and rechambering a factory rig. I have just bought my first factory rifle in 30 years and trying to use seating depth as an avenue toward better accuracy is a waste of time. Thanks for your help.
Larry
If you have a factory barrel will the barrel still fit properly if you re-cut the action threads? If you re-cut the factory threads and try to use the factory barrel, will you have to set the barrel back and re-chamber? I am not opposed to the idea of setting a barrel back and rechambering a factory rig. I have just bought my first factory rifle in 30 years and trying to use seating depth as an avenue toward better accuracy is a waste of time. Thanks for your help.
Larry
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
To a point, I agree, that a $10,000 engine in a clunker is not a prudent financial investment unless you are running MoonShine. My first BR rifle was a .222 on a Remington 722 action that Wally Hart built for me in 1965. My second BR Rifle was built on a Hart 1A Action. Since then most of my rifles have sported custom actions. For the last several years I have been fond of any thing that Glen Harrison (Nesika,Phoenix Machine)builds. Experience has taught me; if I have a Remington 700 rifle in hand that needs to be re-barreled, spend the $ and have it blueprinted. However,don't go buy a Remington action just to build a rifle. No matter how good it is after you have had it blueprinted, it is still a Remington action. When all is said and done you have spent pretty close to the same $ on the new Remington and blueprinting as you would have on a Stiller or Phoenix Machine custom action. Resale; action to action will be dramatically different. Go look at Benchrest.com under classifieds and see how many Remington actions are there. Bottom line, if you have a factory action in hand and want to have it rebarreled, have it blueprinted; otherwise buy custom and send it to your rifle smith.
To a point, I agree, that a $10,000 engine in a clunker is not a prudent financial investment unless you are running MoonShine. My first BR rifle was a .222 on a Remington 722 action that Wally Hart built for me in 1965. My second BR Rifle was built on a Hart 1A Action. Since then most of my rifles have sported custom actions. For the last several years I have been fond of any thing that Glen Harrison (Nesika,Phoenix Machine)builds. Experience has taught me; if I have a Remington 700 rifle in hand that needs to be re-barreled, spend the $ and have it blueprinted. However,don't go buy a Remington action just to build a rifle. No matter how good it is after you have had it blueprinted, it is still a Remington action. When all is said and done you have spent pretty close to the same $ on the new Remington and blueprinting as you would have on a Stiller or Phoenix Machine custom action. Resale; action to action will be dramatically different. Go look at Benchrest.com under classifieds and see how many Remington actions are there. Bottom line, if you have a factory action in hand and want to have it rebarreled, have it blueprinted; otherwise buy custom and send it to your rifle smith.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Larry Burton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have a factory barrel will the barrel still fit properly if you re-cut the action threads? If you re-cut the factory threads and try to use the factory barrel, will you have to set the barrel back and re-chamber? I am not opposed to the idea of setting a barrel back and rechambering a factory rig. I have just bought my first factory rifle in 30 years and trying to use seating depth as an avenue toward better accuracy is a waste of time. Thanks for your help.
Larry </div></div>
Larry,
I wouldnt try to chase the threads in a Remington 700 and then screw the factory barrel back in it, the fit would be too loose. If doing this your self just skim cut the receiver face and lug abutments and use a ground recoil lug. True the bolt and then set the barrel back to re-set the headspace and you'll be good. It's alwasy best to wait until you replace the barrel so you can recut the receiver threads but, this will get you by until then.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Larry Burton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have a factory barrel will the barrel still fit properly if you re-cut the action threads? If you re-cut the factory threads and try to use the factory barrel, will you have to set the barrel back and re-chamber? I am not opposed to the idea of setting a barrel back and rechambering a factory rig. I have just bought my first factory rifle in 30 years and trying to use seating depth as an avenue toward better accuracy is a waste of time. Thanks for your help.
Larry </div></div>
Larry,
I wouldnt try to chase the threads in a Remington 700 and then screw the factory barrel back in it, the fit would be too loose. If doing this your self just skim cut the receiver face and lug abutments and use a ground recoil lug. True the bolt and then set the barrel back to re-set the headspace and you'll be good. It's alwasy best to wait until you replace the barrel so you can recut the receiver threads but, this will get you by until then.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
William,
Thank you for your response; I suspected that was going to be the answer, but was hoping for more. I just bought a lightly used Remington 700 with the Mil-Spec 5r barrel, and while it shoots very well with GM and BH factory 175's, I know I can do better hand loading. Unfortunately, the chamber is cut to allow a 2.917 OAL with 175 SMK so that limits me in using seating depth as an aid to accuracy unless I single feed. Rebarreling with 40 rounds down the tube doesn't make sense right now but your other ideas do. I'm going to shoot it through deer season and then make up my mind weather to sell it and buy a custom action or have this one trued up a bit. Thank you very much for your thoughts.
Larry
William,
Thank you for your response; I suspected that was going to be the answer, but was hoping for more. I just bought a lightly used Remington 700 with the Mil-Spec 5r barrel, and while it shoots very well with GM and BH factory 175's, I know I can do better hand loading. Unfortunately, the chamber is cut to allow a 2.917 OAL with 175 SMK so that limits me in using seating depth as an aid to accuracy unless I single feed. Rebarreling with 40 rounds down the tube doesn't make sense right now but your other ideas do. I'm going to shoot it through deer season and then make up my mind weather to sell it and buy a custom action or have this one trued up a bit. Thank you very much for your thoughts.
Larry
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
Stop worrying about bullet seating depth in the .30 cal rifles, it's just not that critical in the .30 cals and the .308 likes to jump a little anyway. If FGMM can shoot good at 2.800" so can your reloads.
Now I have seen brand new factory Remington’s close on a no-go gage. If this is the case then spinning the barrel back just one turn and correcting the headspace can make a big difference in accuracy, consistency and brass life.
Stop worrying about bullet seating depth in the .30 cal rifles, it's just not that critical in the .30 cals and the .308 likes to jump a little anyway. If FGMM can shoot good at 2.800" so can your reloads.
Now I have seen brand new factory Remington’s close on a no-go gage. If this is the case then spinning the barrel back just one turn and correcting the headspace can make a big difference in accuracy, consistency and brass life.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
Thanks for your response. You are right; I should remember that it is not a custom chamber and I should be eccstatic about the way it shoots. I bought this rifle because;
I couldn't believe the reports on how well these rifles shoot
I have nothing that will shoot factory ammo and last year I forgot my reloads
It was a great deal from a guy that said it wouldn't shoot.
It shoots scary good with both BH and FGMM 175s. After a good scrubbing I shot three 3 shot groups; cleaning between each one and then a fouling shot on a separate target. Avg. group .2726. Then the same clean, shoot, fouler, regimen with three 5 shot groups; avg .684.
I have a custom 6lb, .243 Ackley that shoots about the same. I spent a lot more money for it, and I am very happy with the way it handles and shoots. Any one owning a deer rifle that gives 3 shot groups in the twos and threes should be happy.
Thanks for your response. You are right; I should remember that it is not a custom chamber and I should be eccstatic about the way it shoots. I bought this rifle because;
I couldn't believe the reports on how well these rifles shoot
I have nothing that will shoot factory ammo and last year I forgot my reloads
It was a great deal from a guy that said it wouldn't shoot.
It shoots scary good with both BH and FGMM 175s. After a good scrubbing I shot three 3 shot groups; cleaning between each one and then a fouling shot on a separate target. Avg. group .2726. Then the same clean, shoot, fouler, regimen with three 5 shot groups; avg .684.
I have a custom 6lb, .243 Ackley that shoots about the same. I spent a lot more money for it, and I am very happy with the way it handles and shoots. Any one owning a deer rifle that gives 3 shot groups in the twos and threes should be happy.
Re: Thoughts on action "truing"
I totally agree with wnroscoe. Just do it. If its set up to face the receiver, its ready to do the threads and lugs too. Yeah maybe it will shoot without doing it but how much better would it shoot if it is done? Dont do it, maybe it doesnt shoot. Then you can figure out why, and you'll know were to look first but you'll spend more money to get it done. We dont go to the trouble to do these time consuming set ups only to make tiny light little cuts because we enjoy it. Well, not JUST because we enjoy it. Most of the time with most actions, it DOES make it better. I dont say much on here, just read and laugh mostly. I know something about it and I can tell you that William doesnt talk much shit. It seems like he does it right, you should listen to him.
I totally agree with wnroscoe. Just do it. If its set up to face the receiver, its ready to do the threads and lugs too. Yeah maybe it will shoot without doing it but how much better would it shoot if it is done? Dont do it, maybe it doesnt shoot. Then you can figure out why, and you'll know were to look first but you'll spend more money to get it done. We dont go to the trouble to do these time consuming set ups only to make tiny light little cuts because we enjoy it. Well, not JUST because we enjoy it. Most of the time with most actions, it DOES make it better. I dont say much on here, just read and laugh mostly. I know something about it and I can tell you that William doesnt talk much shit. It seems like he does it right, you should listen to him.
