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I made a similar thread about this a couple months ago or so. Most of the response was in favor of a DI gun instead of the piston, although I was only using the HK and DD as examples.
Easier and cheaper to replace gas system parts, rails, BCG with a DD or any DI rifle, was the general thinking IIRC.
EDIT: Added link to my thread from June.
Easier and cheaper to replace gas system parts, rails, BCG with a DD or any DI rifle, was the general thinking IIRC.
EDIT: Added link to my thread from June.
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Both excellent rifles. The HK is a pig, heavy, in comparison and replacement parts are very expensive. I doubt you would put enough ammo through either in a lifetime to worry about that.
So, I've shot a HK416 (10.5" barrel). Great gun, but definitely has pretty stout recoil at least for a .223/5.56. So they probably won't be as fast back on target as a DI gun. I would assume the same would be true for the MR556.
If you want a piston with a somewhat similar design, you might look for a Sig 5.56. In the last 6 months complete uppers have come up for sale for between $400 and $600, but you have to be patient and act immediately when you find one. At that price they are a very good deal.
If you decide to go the piston route I would also take a look at PWS. Pretty soft shooting and one of the lighter pistons available. Mine is accurate and has been very reliable.
If you want a piston with a somewhat similar design, you might look for a Sig 5.56. In the last 6 months complete uppers have come up for sale for between $400 and $600, but you have to be patient and act immediately when you find one. At that price they are a very good deal.
If you decide to go the piston route I would also take a look at PWS. Pretty soft shooting and one of the lighter pistons available. Mine is accurate and has been very reliable.
KAC for DI for sure if you're looking for high end, accurate and reliable, bet your life on it dependable.
Hk is a beautifully well built gun. The machining quality is top notch and it just oozes quality. Gun is very accurate and shoots sub moa to moa.
However, it’s heavy, the barrel is not chromed lined, a lot of expensive proprietary parts like the buttstock, handguard, trigger, muzzle and bcg.
Great gun to have in the collection, but it wouldn’t be my first choice as a shooter or be all rifle.
I’d go Lmt and KAC di instead.
However, it’s heavy, the barrel is not chromed lined, a lot of expensive proprietary parts like the buttstock, handguard, trigger, muzzle and bcg.
Great gun to have in the collection, but it wouldn’t be my first choice as a shooter or be all rifle.
I’d go Lmt and KAC di instead.
Hi,
Does anyone here happen to have experience or thoughts to share on either the HK MR556A1 or Daniel Defense M4A1 Mil Spec+? Or even both?
Or any other ideas in the ballpark...
Thanks
I have a DD M4A1 BII and like it. Reliable, accurate and shoots a variety of factory ammo and my hand loads without issue.
For reference, Larry Vickers did a torture test video on the Block II
I own both. Comes down to your use.
HK - piston, very soft shooting, accurate and very well made, 16” barrel so you can change out muzzle devices without worry of NFA compliance.Downside is it’s heavy, barrel is not chrome lined and it’s all proprietary. I have never had a failure with this rifle.
DD M4A1 - DI system but harsher recoil due to carbine gas length, Chrome lined barrel, 14.5” barrel that comes with a pined/welded flash hider from DD to meet 16” length (no easy way to change out and will require new muzzle device to be pined/welded), lighter weight.
My thoughts...HK is like a DMR set up. if you want to mount a magnified optic, go that route. The DD is a hard use carbine that I would run with a red dot or 1-8 LPVO.
HK - piston, very soft shooting, accurate and very well made, 16” barrel so you can change out muzzle devices without worry of NFA compliance.Downside is it’s heavy, barrel is not chrome lined and it’s all proprietary. I have never had a failure with this rifle.
DD M4A1 - DI system but harsher recoil due to carbine gas length, Chrome lined barrel, 14.5” barrel that comes with a pined/welded flash hider from DD to meet 16” length (no easy way to change out and will require new muzzle device to be pined/welded), lighter weight.
My thoughts...HK is like a DMR set up. if you want to mount a magnified optic, go that route. The DD is a hard use carbine that I would run with a red dot or 1-8 LPVO.
I would run the DD with the VLTOR A5 (H2) buffer and replace the carrier with a LMT Enhanced carrier. You'll benefit from increased dwell time , increased exhaust porting and reduced carrier speed. All adds up to a less violent operation. Been running a short gas 14.5" pinned setup like this for a number of years now. That being said - 14.5 midlength is a reliable system that has lots of hard use behind it (BCM) . I would go in that direction.
But if it was my scratch - I would go pinned KAC 14.5 E3 mod 2 all day long. My personal fav...
But if it was my scratch - I would go pinned KAC 14.5 E3 mod 2 all day long. My personal fav...
I already got a Schmidt and Bender 1-8x24 dual cc that will go on it. Works as red dot too, so that should be ok on either
Thanks for the input guys!
I have 0 experience with the HK, and I'm probably a wee less knowledgeable on gas guns as the guys that have already commented but I had the DD M4A1 and really enjoy shooting it. Ive been thinking about upgrading the buffer and carrier myself for the same reason mentioned, but I feel good knowing I have a hard ass rifle if a situation ever required one.
If you're paying MAP for a daniel you've overpaying for the product you're receiving. Remember--this is the company that started charging more for their rifles after they brought production in house for their: plastic dust covers, unproven magazines, shitty buttstocks, and horseshit rail covers.
I'd buy a centurion CM4 far before I'd ever consider a DD rifle. (I've owned a DD Mk12, DDM4V1, and Mk18) I currently own two CM4's. (and way more LMT's)
Can't comment on the HK. But I sold my 12" LMT Piston upper as my "work no matter what" upper when my 16" LMT DI chewed through RAS .223 and the piston wouldn't cycle one round without a can.
I'd buy a centurion CM4 far before I'd ever consider a DD rifle. (I've owned a DD Mk12, DDM4V1, and Mk18) I currently own two CM4's. (and way more LMT's)
Can't comment on the HK. But I sold my 12" LMT Piston upper as my "work no matter what" upper when my 16" LMT DI chewed through RAS .223 and the piston wouldn't cycle one round without a can.
Surprised at the comment that the HK was soft shooting. I have some experience with HK416 and I would say the complete opposite. Overgassed to insure reliability, so recoil is a little sharper than any other AR I own. Maybe the 516 is different, or maybe it's that mine had the 10.5" barrel, but for a soft shooting piston that isn't front heavy, I'd go with a PWS.
Or, like others have recommended, if you have the budget, it's hard to go wrong with a KAC.
Finally, just curious how you narrowed down your selection to these two. Reliability? Accuracy? Features? The guns somewhat dissimilar, particularly since one is a piston and one DI.
Or, like others have recommended, if you have the budget, it's hard to go wrong with a KAC.
Finally, just curious how you narrowed down your selection to these two. Reliability? Accuracy? Features? The guns somewhat dissimilar, particularly since one is a piston and one DI.
Thank you! How I narrowed it down... hard to say. That would be the first gas gun, i have no clue whatsoever
asked about the DD because of a couple reviews on the bigger DDM, seen that the M4A1 comes with a shorter barrel whilst still not considered sbr... and the mil spec has a pretty color (yeah seriously haha). The HK, not sure. Guess I looked at HK because they are a few miles down the road from where I grew up in Germany and thought its an interesting gun So complete newb, appreciating all the insights and different opinions here.
Both are great guns, but jump over them & get a KAC; thank me later. I love the HK but for all the reasons already cited about parts cost & proprietary parts, as a civilian, I'll pass.
Either a 14.5" or a 16"................both are just fabulous weapons.
I don't have a 14.5" KAC, but I do have 2-16''s & an 18".
MM
Either a 14.5" or a 16"................both are just fabulous weapons.
I don't have a 14.5" KAC, but I do have 2-16''s & an 18".
MM
Thanks! So lets take the 14.5in KAC for example, how does that work if you dont wanna go through paperwork for the short barrel, can you for example order it to your trusted FFL and have them fix the muzzle device before handing it over? Does it need to be welded or are there other options?
Yes, 14.5" with a fixed/pinned muzzle brake works as that should get you over 16". Another option is to get whatever barrel length you want (to me 10.5-12" is kind of the sweet spot for short barreled rifles) and get a pistol brace. Gun is classified as a pistol, so no need to pay $200 for a tax stamp. However, you should check your local state laws on this. For example, I used to live in Massachusetts and because of the size and weight of AR with a brace it didn't qualify as a pistol.
However, if this is your first AR 14.5-16" is probably the way to go. Once you get much shorter than this you start paying a price in lost velocity, limiting the guns effective range.
However, if this is your first AR 14.5-16" is probably the way to go. Once you get much shorter than this you start paying a price in lost velocity, limiting the guns effective range.
A KAC mod 2 is a particularly bad gun to pin because you can’t get to the gas system if it needs to be serviced. Learned that through experience. But yet, KAC is the best AR. If you were to buy a 16” and an 11.5 you’d have all you need.
The MR556 is awesome, however it is probably the most expensive 5.56 semi auto you could buy. Out of the gate I had the barrel sent off for a NitroMet treatment. After that, installed a Geissele SM rail. Standard AR it’s about $300, however on an HK, it’s $400+. Installed a Geissele trigger. Standard AR, $275, on an HK, $400+. Added KAC iron sights as well because I didn’t like the ones that’s came with it.
If you want to spend more you can have the barrel reprofiled which would reduce weight. I didn‘t have that done on mine because I liked the heavy barrel. It’s heavy, but I think it does a better job handling heat over the SR-15. The SR-15‘s handguard gets pretty hot after a few mags (I believe we went through 5 mags doing slow target firing; maybe 1 shot every 2-5 secs, with a few minutes in between mags). The MR556 stays cooler relative to the SR.
That being said, the KAC is awesome as well. Lighter and easier to manipulate than the MR556.
The KAC SR-15 wasn’t mine. It was brand new out of the box, and we simply lubed it up and went to the range. It was super nice, and definitely plan to get one. Next on the list would be a Barrett REC7.
If you want to spend more you can have the barrel reprofiled which would reduce weight. I didn‘t have that done on mine because I liked the heavy barrel. It’s heavy, but I think it does a better job handling heat over the SR-15. The SR-15‘s handguard gets pretty hot after a few mags (I believe we went through 5 mags doing slow target firing; maybe 1 shot every 2-5 secs, with a few minutes in between mags). The MR556 stays cooler relative to the SR.
That being said, the KAC is awesome as well. Lighter and easier to manipulate than the MR556.
The KAC SR-15 wasn’t mine. It was brand new out of the box, and we simply lubed it up and went to the range. It was super nice, and definitely plan to get one. Next on the list would be a Barrett REC7.
Hi,
Does anyone here happen to have experience or thoughts to share on either the HK MR556A1 or Daniel Defense M4A1 Mil Spec+? Or even both?
Or any other ideas in the ballpark...
Thanks
The MR556A1 is a chunky half-brother to the 416 with the best part (the barrel) not even being of the same pedigree. Appropriately enough, Daniel Defense did the finish work on the MR556's state-side for legal/import red tape reasons. It shoots well, but it's heavy, proprietary and unnecessarily expensive.
Just for the sake of conversation, I've had several legit 416's and finally got my hands on an M27 upper last year. What's sad is, I could out-shoot that upper with a run-of-the-mill Daniel Defense 14.5" middy barreled upper that cost roughly 1/10th the price of the 16.5" 416 barrel and the gun is several pounds lighter. Logistically and performance/$, it's a no-brainer.
I think the MR556 is too much of a unicorn... parts and support can be hard to come by. Also really heavy. If you want a slick, accurate rifle to take to the range then it could work out. But if you want to do almost anything else, you could get a DD, LMT, KAC, Noveske, LWRC etc. and have extra money left over for optics and ammo. I've had a Afghan and LWRC and now a sr-25 upper and they've all been great.
Buy an MCX it's easily better than both more reliable more accurate and more modular.
Not if you want an effective forward mounted sight of any kind. The mcx handguard is retained by the front receiver pin. Economical, yes. But just dumb. Lots of deflection under pressure.
HK
piston is superior and cleaner, particularly running suppressed.
piston is superior and cleaner, particularly running suppressed.
The Virtus is designed to maintain zero on rail mounted devices. Legacy AR's mounting a rails connection hardware to the barrel nut is not ideal that's why some manufacturers went to monolithic uppers Sig's solution is the better one. It's just one example of how Legacy DI AR's are 60 year old designs trying to keep up with how were using tactical carbines today verses the MCX which is designed from the ground up to be a modern modular multi caliber tactical carbine and provide better accuracy, reliability, modularity, and a system that's designed around continuous suppression which I'd say from researching the SURG program SOCOM see's as the future on the battlefield.
HK
piston is superior and cleaner, particularly running suppressed.
Hey if you wanna talk suppressed use the MCX is the choice all day long and such is vetted by SOCOM during the SURG program. There's nothing else that meets the same levels of reliability suppressed as the Sig in fact correct me if I'm wrong I think but even while suppressed the MCX meets higher reliability standards than any US military tactical carbine has ever been required to meet. The Sig being required to run for 20,000 rounds suppressed with 0 parts failures really is impressive.
I am a Kac and LMT guy, but out of DD and HK, I would suggest the DD. While both are good weapons, I feel that the HK is a little awkward for the price. The barrel is a little heavier than it should be and the hand guards look like they will developed by a midwest industries intern in the early 2010's. For what the rifle cost, the trigger is hot garbage. With that being said, HK makes good stuff and any of the short comings can be addressed by the aftermarket.
The DD is just a solid DI AR.
The DD is just a solid DI AR.
The funny thing is that although SOCOM chose the MCX for the SURG upper, most of the suppressed guns running around down range are some variant of a DI AR. Some groups like, URG's, Some like 416, some like the Scar, There are alot of good guns out there these days and now that companies are putting out low back pressure designs that have less of an impact on the weapons performance.
I like the MCX but from a lot of the reviews are pretty gassy. The Spear is apparently very gassy as well. Cool rifle though
But none of those rifle's passed the SURG contract requirements neither did any low back pressure suppressors. SOCOM held trails for the program because in their own words they wanted "improved reliability and endurance over legacy unsuppressed systems, Improved thermal characteristics, Improved System durability and Reduce the toxic fume and blowback exposure to operators".
I don't disagree with the Sig passing the SOCOM trials but one would have to see the test results to say that no other rifle passed the requirements. It is not out of the ordinary that during testing, if two weapon systems are very close in performance, the winner can be selected taking into account end user input. This is why the M2010 has Remington Chassis vs AI.
It was also the reason the CSASS was selected and phase 3 of testing was canceled . It was not because the HK outperformed the MWS or Scar, it was simply because it was close, and some folks down in South Carolina preferred the HK.
Considering all the test data that they learned from the SURG test, I have to ask the question, why is the large frame version of the MCX is the gassiest weapon on the planet.
With all this being said, I like the MCX, but I think the limited number of guns running around down range may indicated its more of example of another tool in the toolbox vs the game changer that the SURG press may let on to,
Which iteration of the Sig MCX are we talking about?
The initial Cabela's (or whatever big box hunter store had the first run with the non-adj gas block) shit show? Gen 2 after the bolt and trigger recalls? The Virtus? Or the next Gen that I've been seeing on social media?
Yeah...real "solid" system they got there. Love the idea of it; hated the execution of it. As far as accuracy; mine couldn't even come close to a 416, DD, or even a Colt with a free-floated barrel. About the only stock 5.56 I've had that it could be outright would probably be a Steyr AUG. Also love how it was such a problem child early on (and maybe still is) when someone attempted full-auto...not an indication of a reliable operating mechanism when both DI, HK and others could accomplish that feat easily.
6061 construction; internal components sourced from India, and several proprietary concepts from an entity that is known for quantity over quality and letting its customers beta-test. Even knowing all that, I wanted to like it and put my own money down for one...and Sig did not fail to disappoint. And this was when they weren't at a premium like they are now (if you can find one). Not a wise investment IMHO.
The initial Cabela's (or whatever big box hunter store had the first run with the non-adj gas block) shit show? Gen 2 after the bolt and trigger recalls? The Virtus? Or the next Gen that I've been seeing on social media?
Yeah...real "solid" system they got there. Love the idea of it; hated the execution of it. As far as accuracy; mine couldn't even come close to a 416, DD, or even a Colt with a free-floated barrel. About the only stock 5.56 I've had that it could be outright would probably be a Steyr AUG. Also love how it was such a problem child early on (and maybe still is) when someone attempted full-auto...not an indication of a reliable operating mechanism when both DI, HK and others could accomplish that feat easily.
6061 construction; internal components sourced from India, and several proprietary concepts from an entity that is known for quantity over quality and letting its customers beta-test. Even knowing all that, I wanted to like it and put my own money down for one...and Sig did not fail to disappoint. And this was when they weren't at a premium like they are now (if you can find one). Not a wise investment IMHO.
Have you shot a Sig?
Can you show us a contract for Sig SURG rifles?
Can you tell us who is using the Sig operationally?
Or is this all from the internet?
No we don't have to see the test results to say no other rifle passed the requirements it's right here and in multiple other publications as well.
"These stringent requirements, combining suppression, reliability, accuracy service life, and operator protection were very challenging for industry. It took three tries at bat for the SURG program to finally select a system. In the two earlier attempts, none of the systems could meet all of the program’s objectives. Kudos to SIG for putting together a winning system."
https://soldiersystems.net/2018/08/...ppressed-upper-receiver-group-from-sig-sauer/
Also where are you getting your info that "the large frame MCX is the gassiest weapon on the planet"?
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The Virtus won the SURG contract. Your post sounds like a bunch of made up BS to me. I'm sorry that you think you're smarter than SOCOM.
You're claiming the accuracy's not there but that comes vetted SOCOM during the SURG program which has been made public and such is already discussed in earlier posts go back read them. Next you're claiming some issues in full auto which you didn't actually describe but full auto functionality was proven during SURG testing and such testing has also been made public. Components from India too ehh well prove it and then when you're done prove that components are an issue as they were required to run suppressed for 20,000 rounds with 0 parts failures which was also made public.
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Wut?
Yes I've shot the Sig
I don't need to show you a SOCOM contract for Sig alot of this stuff is public so what are you getting at?
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I believe it's a 48 million dollar contract. So how many SURG uppers can you buy for 48 million at whatever military pricing they got on them?
I notice you're not contesting the Sig is the better choice because it's a more reliable accurate and modular rifle.
Assuming your information is correct (which is highly doubtful given your posts so far), I was in and out of the MCX before the Virtus was available. "Fool me once"...
That’s an IDIQ contract, not an order. Has there been an order?
It’s not more accurate and if it’s more modular I’m not sure how I would use that in the real world.
I actually edited the post your replying to.
SOCOM's results > the opinion of a KAC/DD/HK/LMT owner who doesn't like being shown that something else is better
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Here's the accuracy requirement right here. Prove that an HK or DD is more accurate.
"The weapon firing MK318 MOD1 for 5 groups of 10 rounds each suppressed, has to average over the 5 groups no more than 1.50 MOA Extreme Spread (ES) beyond the ammunition Lot Acceptance Test (LAT) average ES at 300 yards. Also, it has to maintain a maximum ES Average of 1.50 MOA over LAT using MK318 MOD0 / MOD1 ammunition from 0 to 10,000 rounds fired"
Of course meeting such a requirement with MK318 military ammo at 300 yards is going to require a rifle that's sub moa with match ammo at 100 yards.
https://soldiersystems.net/2018/08/...ppressed-upper-receiver-group-from-sig-sauer/
And yet JSOC uses DI M4 pattern weapons again. Hmmmm.
Lol
"These stringent requirements, combining suppression, reliability, accuracy service life, and operator protection were very challenging for industry. It took three tries at bat for the SURG program to finally select a system. In the two earlier attempts, none of the systems could meet all of the program’s objectives. Kudos to SIG for putting together a winning system."
https://soldiersystems.net/2018/08/...ppressed-upper-receiver-group-from-sig-sauer/
Never said there wasn't a SURG...just unsure that the MCX selected was the "virtus" gen. Thanks anyways...
Glad you're happy with yours (sounds like you might have one) though....you do you.
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The reason why SOCOM held the SURG trails was to procure a weapon that could support continuous suppression which a Legacy DI AR can't. In their own words they wanted;
"improved reliability and endurance over legacy unsuppressed systems, Improved thermal characteristics, Improved System durability and Reduce the toxic fume and blowback exposure to operators".
And I'd say from researching the SURG program that SOCOM thinks that continuous suppression is the future on the battlefield. It's a 60 yr old design that's been modified to suit how we're using tactical carbines today verses a modern modular multi caliber rifle that's designed around modern needs and there really is no comparison.
It's passed some of the most rigorous reliability and accuracy requirements of any US military carbine ever.
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