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Rifle Scopes Time for a new scope because, why not?

B

BuckeyesCL2004

Private
Minuteman
Aug 23, 2019
28
6
Khales, Vortex, Leupold, Schmidt & Bender, Nightforce, hell Athlon, they all make great scopes. So there are options from all brands. What I'm interested in most is who has the best warranty AND customer service. I think they all probably warrant the scope for will repair it as needed. However, I'm more interested in accidental damage.

If I run the scope over with my truck I know Vortex will replace it. They cover everything. What about the others? Athlon says they cover damage due to normal use. Anyone have experience with Athlon in this regard? From what I gather the others don't cover damage.
 
sleeplz said:
Vortex is the only one for accidentals. Get a vortex 1-10 genIII
Click to expand...

I currently have rifles with both Vortex and Athlon optics. Like them both very much. Haven't had to test the warranties though.

I'm wondering about Athlon, they say damage from normal use. I am looking for someone that's maybe knocked their rifle off a bench or knocked the scope off on a barricade, something like that. Would Athlon call that "normal" usage I wonder.
 
BuckeyesCL2004 said:
Spending that much money on something, why shouldn't warranty and customer service be part of the criteria? Foolish to not consider all aspects.
Click to expand...

What I'm interested in most is who has the best warranty AND customer service. I think they all probably warrant the scope for will repair it as needed. However, I'm more interested in accidental damage.

If I run the scope over with my truck I know Vortex will replace it. They cover everything. What about the others? Athlon says they cover damage due to normal use. Anyone have experience with Athlon in this regard? From what I gather the others don't cover damage.
[/QUOTE]

The guy is worried most about accidental damage (running over with truck)

If that is more important to you than reticule, turrets, glass quality, power range,
drive on. I select scopes by what features they have and then don’t run over them.

The guy is either a troll, an idiot, a shill for Vortex or a 12 year old kid.
 
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rth1800 said:
The guy is either a troll, an idiot, a shill for Vortex or a 12 year old kid.
Click to expand...

What I'm interested in most AS FAR AS THIS THREAD goes. I don't need advice on the other stuff. I'm plenty good that dept, and besides there are zillions of threads on those topics.

You are just being an ass. You can excuse yourself from the conversation please because you clearly have nothing constructive to offer.
 
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rth1800 said:
Not leaving this shit show. Sorry. This thread has Budley or Quiggly Ford potential.

As far as being constructive I’ll offer this.

DON’T DRIVE YOUR TRUCK OVER YOUR SCOPE.
Remember, you heard it here first.
Click to expand...

You know jackasses like you are why I have to think twice before I start threads on this site. I have to weigh whether the bullshit responses like the ones you've posted are worth putting up with to get the information I need. The OP posed a perfectly reasonable question about warranty and customer service. If the reticle, glass quality, tracking, quality of build and features are all equal between scope A and scope B, wouldn't you want to know that if you have an issue with scope B it'll take 6 months to get repaired during which time if they do bother to answer the phone they'll bullshit you and make promises they'll never keep? All scopes break or can get broken, knowing how long your scope is likely to take to get repaired, and how much crap you'll have to go through to get it repaired, may cause you to go with one make over another. This is especially true if you compete or use the scope for work.
 
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If you find it reasonable to select a scope based on if it will be replaced due to your stupidity fine. It does not factor into my purchase decisions. But, I don’t drive trucks over my gear. Anyone who does should not be handling firearms, operating equipment or driving trucks.

I’m quite serious that the OP is either a kid or shilling for Vortex.
 
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Sig will give you a new scope if you purposely run it over with your train or drop it on concrete from 12,000 feet high from your airplane. Ask me how I know this.

Vortex will do the same...
 
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I called Burris twice in the last 6 months. 1st time i fucked up screws. 2nd time I threw away ring inserts. Now I need to add 10moa. Both times what is your email and they are on they way. Had my card in hand. Argued with customer service that it was my fault and was willing to pay. Leupold set the stage. I wouldn’t plan on using my rifle as a wheel chalk. So pick glass,reticle and price point most companies will bend over backwards to help.
 
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Ease of warranty is definitely a concern. Some companies can have something back to you in the same week, and others need to be shipped over seas to be fixed. I know I’ve heard Minox scopes need to be sent to Germany to be fixed
 
Just ignore the guy whining about how you shouldn’t care about warrenty. He is just trying to pound his chest. All of these factors including features, glass, customer service, etc, they all play a part. I currently have a Kahles in for repair. Very nice customer service people, and the warrenty will cover the repair. Issue is it takes 8 weeks to get it back. Everything is a factor when you are spending 2-4K on an optic. Keep on asking relevant questions.

P.s. most of us understand you aren’t planning on running over your scope with a truck. We understand it was an exaggeration
 
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Nice to see some level headed folks here. One jackass sitting in his mom's basement playing keyboard sniper and watching YouTube videos is easily ignored....

I've read some really good stories about Khales going above and beyond to help customers. Read one thread where a guy had a 40 year old scope and in the end they came through.
 
BuckeyesCL2004 said:
Now this I gotta hear..... and how do you know this?
Click to expand...

I accidentally dropped my rifle from the tallest deer stand we had at our previous hunting lease. The windage turret hit on the metal frame with the full force and weight of the rifle that it knocked it completely off. The scope also slipped in the rings a bit. After it took that hard hit, it hit once again down on the mud although that wasn't as hard of a hit.

When I called Sig, I explained exactly that. The rep told me it didn't matter that the windage turret broke off due to my carelessness. He said it could have been a factory defect or me breaking it on purpose, they were sending me a new one either way. And they did.

By the way, the scope was still very clear considering it was no longer sealed. My elevation was also dead on even after those hard hits...
IMG_20181218_092252_354.jpg
 
That’s awesome that Sig has a bitchin warranty. I’ve always hunted with cheap scopes and saved my higher end glass for the range. I really want to buy a upper tier scope (Nightforce, S&B, etc) for sheep hunting, but the terrain is nasty, it’s like the surface of the moon with waist high grass covering all the tripping hazards. I usually take a few good spills every hunting season, my upland bird gun has some nice dings and dents (same hunting area), that scares me from walking around with a $2k plus optic bolted to my gun. I will probably wuss out and grab a Bushnell Forge or Nitro so when the inevitable happens I won’t cry like a baby, which is exactly what I’d do if I smashed a high end optic against a rock while taking a spill.
 
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BuckeyesCL2004 said:
Khales, Vortex, Leupold, Schmidt & Bender, Nightforce, hell Athlon, they all make great scopes. So there are options from all brands. What I'm interested in most is who has the best warranty AND customer service. I think they all probably warrant the scope for will repair it as needed. However, I'm more interested in accidental damage.

If I run the scope over with my truck I know Vortex will replace it. They cover everything. What about the others? Athlon says they cover damage due to normal use. Anyone have experience with Athlon in this regard? From what I gather the others don't cover damage.
Click to expand...
I accidentally stripped and ruined the zero stop mechanism in the elevation turret on my Athlon Cronus BTR ... one call, Emailed free shipping label, returned it totally fixed. Total time from call to return was 8 days. Once in-hand they turned it around the same day. NO issues whatsoever with Athlon's customer service.
 
gr8fuldoug said:
No fault warranties are offered by:
Athlon
Vortex
Burris
Steiner
Bushnell

As offered advice earlier in this tread........ Don't drive over you scope, however, if you do these companies will cover the scope for you
Click to expand...
Good accurate list.
Unfortunately, a list of.optics I avoid.
Never owned a Bushnell (except the cheap ones a long time ago which just sucked).
The others:
Had two BRAND NEW Athlon not track or RTZ even close. Got my money back and ran away.
Had a Steiner T5Xi that went back for service three times for multiple issues that came back every time with something either not fixed or a new problem. Sold it after the 3rd return. Steiner and Burris are sister companies owned by the same. Had a Burris on a rifle I was working on not track or RTZ during load development too.
Had two (out of 3 I owned) different Vortex give up the ghost for no apparent reason. Low round counts on light recoiling rounds. Sold them both, along with a 3rd.

All of the above mentioned were good CS and fast turnaround. But left me with no confidence in the brand.
 
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gr8fuldoug said:
There's the other school of thought.
Buy a:
Kahles
Nightforce
Tangent
Steiner M series
Don't worry about the warranty as they won't need warranty work
Click to expand...


I'm not certain I would go so far as to say that a warranty is unnecessary on all of those brands, considering:




I spent 10 seconds searching and found a valid need for Nightforce, Kahles and Steiner M warranty. I found multiple such threads for each of those brands, except for Tangent Theta.

ZCO only showed one result in searching, and for a pretty minor issue. Nonetheless, I bet he's happy that the warranty existed.
 
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There have been isolated issues with TT, someone on here had a scope with something loose inside a little while back...but they are a tiny exceptional proportion of the overall population of units in circulation; same applies to SB. Scopes, like all mechanical devices occasionally fail and require repair, no big deal if you buy a reputable scope brand...As far as TT/SB, they Both stand behind their products and provide great customer service.
 
Let's state facts:

1) Shit happens
2) If your scope manufacturer doesn't cover events when shit happens, then you're, well... shit out of luck
3) Shit happens

Fortunately, I haven't had to use a scope warranty... yet. Do I think I'll need to? I don't know. There are some threads around somewhere about fire victims getting their optics replaced. To the poster who callously said either you're stupid or shill, which were the Paradise fire victims? Or Camp fire victims? Or... you get the idea?

All else being equal, I'll take the scope with the no-fault warranty, thank you.
 
I think this is a very important part of a scope purchase. It’s expensive and you want to be covered. I always keep follow on support in the back of my mind. However as far as accidental damage goes, I think only Vortex handles that. I’d love to be wrong though...

Kahles has always been good to me. First time they up and replaced my scope. Second time off to Austria for repair. One thing to keep in mind with the Euro brands is that you might be without an optic for a month or two. Their customer service is fantastic. In fact I had no issue purchasing another Kahles scope. You didn’t mention Minox / Blaser. They were great to deal with also. Vortex speaks for itself. Never had to talk to Nightforce regarding 3 different optics SHV, ATACR, and NXS.

I’m not a spooky hard use guy and I make sure my rifle isn’t sitting under my rear tire when I leave the range. I’m not repelling with a slung rifle either. I think for most people you’re most likely to be struck by lighting than to see your scope explode into a million pieces. Again I’d love to be wrong and we’d all enjoy the story assuming no one got injured.
 
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charnicus said:
I think this is a very important part of a scope purchase. It’s expensive and you want to be covered. I always keep follow on support in the back of my mind. However as far as accidental damage goes, I think only Vortex handles that. I’d love to be wrong though...

Kahles has always been good to me. First time they up and replaced my scope. Second time off to Austria for repair. One thing to keep in mind with the Euro brands is that you might be without an optic for a month or two. Their customer service is fantastic. In fact I had no issue purchasing another Kahles scope. You didn’t mention Minox / Blaser. They were great to deal with also. Vortex speaks for itself. Never had to talk to Nightforce regarding 3 different optics SHV, ATACR, and NXS.

I’m not a spooky hard use guy and I make sure my rifle isn’t sitting under my rear tire when I leave the range. I’m not repelling with a slung rifle either. I think for most people you’re most likely to be struck by lighting than to see your scope explode into a million pieces. Again I’d love to be wrong and we’d all enjoy the story assuming no one got injured.
Click to expand...
 
Why not call and talk to the HMFIC of the company and ask them what they will do? Tract Optics, Jon or Jon. Or you can exchange texts with them if that is more your comfort level. The Toric line offers some of the best glass and features out there for the money and they give a discount to Veterans and LE. Sorry for arriving late to conversation, I'd rather be building guns and shooting.
 
nn8734 said:
There have been isolated issues with TT, someone on here had a scope with something loose inside a little while back...but they are a tiny exceptional proportion of the overall population of units in circulation; same applies to SB. Scopes, like all mechanical devices occasionally fail and require repair, no big deal if you buy a reputable scope brand...As far as TT/SB, they Both stand behind their products and provide great customer service.
Click to expand...
I wondered if its because these $4,000 scopes aren’t out there in the same numbers as the others. They may or may not suffer the same percentages of malfunctions.
 
My outlook is simply different.

The mentality that a scope should be replaced due to catastrophic loss or user stupidity is placing the burden on the maker. Since only a socialist thinks anything can be free it is clear to others that if they offer such a warranty it is being paid for up front.

I do not want to pay for an insurance policy against stupid when I buy a scope which is exactly what the OP is looking for. I prefer to pay only for the item. Cheap Chinese crap often comes with such a warranty. Top of the line products never do. Do you think Rolls Royce will replace your car if you crash into a tree?

In all cases I recall the companies who offer such policies are pursuing low information buyers and offering 3rd tier products. Just as socialism appeals to only those who run the system or those too stupid to know how things work and want someone else to give them cradle to grave guarantees. Free college, free healthcare, free childcare, free scope replacement. I would not be surprised if Bernie offers it in his platform soon. Very socialist idea.

It removes the burden of reasonable care from the owner. I still maintain the OP is exactly as I posted.
 
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wade2big said:
I wondered if its because these $4,000 scopes aren’t out there in the same numbers as the others. They may or may not suffer the same percentages of malfunctions.
Click to expand...

If referring to raw numbers of defect/issue reports, yes that holds true. I know a lot of shooters and only one with a TT...Defect-rate wise, I’d bet they are on the low side relative to the vast majority of manufacturers and probably low even relative to scopes in their price point peer group but that’s just an uneducated (ie non-data driven) guess.
 
I ordered a Burris scope off eBay. It showed up looking like hell. Didn’t want to deal with the shady seller. I sent it in to Burris and they shipped a brand new model to me. Within 1.5 week turn around time! The issues were mainly cosmetic too. Great CS by Burris.
 
Here’s a harder question to answer.

What reputable optic manufacturer *does not* have a good warranty? I’ve never heard of any of the current top end companies not standing behind their product.

It’s rare you’ll run over your scope or drop it down a mountain.

Vortex has great no questions asked warranty, but that’s mainly because most of the optics they sell are marked way up and cater to the lower end “normal” buyer who’s only spending $3-800 on an optic. They wouldn’t be do so well if they had people destroying razor gen II’s left and right. (This isn’t a knock on vortex).

Pick the optic that you prefer the most. If something happens to it, ass long as you weren’t being a dumbass you’ll be fine. It’s much cheaper for an optic company to make you happy than to have someone on a forum telling everyone their bad CS experiences.
 
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Swarovski is awful. I STUPIDLY dropped my scope on the concrete garage floor. Thinking they would take care of me...yeah they did to the tune of $250 for a new body tube an $100 for the service and return shipping was on me. absolutely loved the optics hated the very expensive service.

Never had to use the vortex service, but they only ask 1 question for any damag, and that is “what’s your return address?”
 
sharpdoug said:
Swarovski is awful. I STUPIDLY dropped my scope on the concrete garage floor. Thinking they would take care of me...yeah they did to the tune of $250 for a new body tube an $100 for the service and return shipping was on me. absolutely loved the optics hated the very expensive service.

Never had to use the vortex service, but they only ask 1 question for any damag, and that is “what’s your return address?”
Click to expand...
None of the Alpha quality optics companies (Swarovski, Leica, Kahles, Tangent Theta, S&B, Nightforce, Zeiss) cover physical damage in their warranty. The Pacific Rim companies will because their cost is low and their margins are high and breakage/replacments are figured into their pricing.
 
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lancetkenyon said:
Good accurate list.
Unfortunately, a list of.optics I avoid.
Never owned a Bushnell (except the cheap ones a long time ago which just sucked).
The others:
Had two BRAND NEW Athlon not track or RTZ even close. Got my money back and ran away.
Had a Steiner T5Xi that went back for service three times for multiple issues that came back every time with something either not fixed or a new problem. Sold it after the 3rd return. Steiner and Burris are sister companies owned by the same. Had a Burris on a rifle I was working on not track or RTZ during load development too.
Had two (out of 3 I owned) different Vortex give up the ghost for no apparent reason. Low round counts on light recoiling rounds. Sold them both, along with a 3rd.

All of the above mentioned were good CS and fast turnaround. But left me with no confidence in the brand.
Click to expand...

Not calling bullshit but I'm curious what model Vortex and Burris you had those issues with?
 
There's no free lunch. The cost of free work and parts replacement is part of the price. Think of it as scope insurance. The policy has a price. The better the policy, the higher the price.

The question to ask is, what percentage of the price is insurance? What percentage is labor, glass, aluminum and brass? I don't know; I'm sure that info is a closely guarded secret.

Myself, personally, I prefer near all of my $3000 price paid, to go towards the material quality and labor.

It doesn't really make any difference if I pay up front for that insurance, in the form of a $1500 price tag on a thousand dollar scope, or just buy the thousand dollar scope. I can wait till I break it then pay $500 out of pocket for the repair. Either way costs about the same. There's also the off-chance that I never break it, and save the cost of the insurance/warranty. But if I paid for the warranty up-front and never need it?

Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying the warranty/insurance markup is 500$, that's just a wild ass guess. I have no idea. It could be a nickel per scope, but I very much doubt that...



There's nothing wrong with wanting a great warranty, but there's no doubt that for the same price, your getting less scope with that warranty. Some chunk of the price is for sure, covering those repair costs.
Everyone likes to think that warranty is free, that they're getting something extra.
 
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sharpdoug said:
Swarovski is awful. I STUPIDLY dropped my scope on the concrete garage floor. Thinking they would take care of me...yeah they did to the tune of $250 for a new body tube an $100 for the service and return shipping was on me. absolutely loved the optics hated the very expensive service.

Never had to use the vortex service, but they only ask 1 question for any damag, and that is “what’s your return address?”
Click to expand...

What kind of bullshit, millennial expectation is it that $400 is a high fee for negligence??
 
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ken226 said:
There's no free lunch. The cost of free work and parts replacement is part of the price. Think of it as scope insurance. The policy has a price. The better the policy, the higher the price.

The question to ask is, what percentage of the price is insurance? What percentage is labor, glass, aluminum and brass? I don't know; I'm sure that info is a closely guarded secret.

Myself, personally, I prefer near all of my $3000 price paid, to go towards the material quality and labor.

It doesn't really make any difference if I pay up front for that insurance, in the form of a $1500 price tag on a thousand dollar scope, or wait till I break it then pay $500 out of pocket for the repair. Either way costs about the same. But, in the meantime, i would rather be shooting the $1500 scope, and there's also the off-chance that I never break it, and save the cost of the insurance/warranty.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying the warranty/insurance markup is 500$, that's just a wild ass guess. I have no idea. It could be a nickel per scope, but I very much doubt that...



There's nothing wrong with wanting a great warranty, but there's no doubt that for the same price, your getting less scope with that warranty.
Click to expand...

A lot of the price is in the form of batch spot checks vs QC checking every single piece of the optic before shipping.

Typically the no questions asked warranties use a batch check QC vs the higher priced optics who QC every single part several times before assembly.
 
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I'll give you my take on it because I believe you, OP, are asking fair and legitimate questions. I bought a Vortex RZR HD Gen2 for my match rifle partly due to the fact that Vortex has a "No questions asked" warranty. Part of that reason is because I know my Match rig is likely to get dinged, scratched, banged around due to the competition nature shooting off of/through/around barricades more than any of my other rifles. Shit happens. Everything can break. All scopes can break. I'm a professional student on a very tight budget. This sport/hobby/lifestyle (whatever you want to call it) is expensive as fuck. If something breaks I have such a tight budget I don't want to have to put up the extra money to pay shipping to/from, repair costs, etc. to fix a scope. The Vortex is perfect for my needs and does exactly what I want. It's not S&B or NF or Kahles crisp but I didn't buy it expecting it to be. Vortex HD line is great, and is only a minor step behind the top tier brands in glass quality in my opinion. I bought it because it still meets my requirements for reticle, glass, turrets AND they have a no questions asked warranty. I've heard of other companies offering something similar to Vortex (Nightforce and Leupold mainly) but it's not as clear and easily navigated as Vortex's so I didn't want to chance it.
 
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rth1800 said:
The mentality that a scope should be replaced due to catastrophic loss or user stupidity is placing the burden on the maker. Since only a socialist thinks anything can be free it is clear to others that if they offer such a warranty it is being paid for up front.

I do not want to pay for an insurance policy against stupid when I buy a scope which is exactly what the OP is looking for. I prefer to pay only for the item. Cheap Chinese crap often comes with such a warranty. Top of the line products never do. Do you think Rolls Royce will replace your car if you crash into a tree?
.
.
.
It removes the burden of reasonable care from the owner. I still maintain the OP is exactly as I posted.
Click to expand...

You are a giant douche bag plain and simple. No where did I say I would only buy a scope that covers it. Saying I'm interested in something doesn't mean that's my criteria for choosing a damn thing. It means I'm you know INTERESTED TO FIND OUT. It's one criteria. You are a complete jackass.

You can maintain I'm whatever you want, but at least there are numerous decent level headed people here that like to talk about things and not everyone has their head shoved firmly up their ass like you. The Internet would be SUCH a better place without trolls like you.

Thanks to the folks who actually took time to participate in a real discussion. You guys rock. rth1800 ur trash dude.
 
ken226 said:
There's nothing wrong with wanting a great warranty, but there's no doubt that for the same price, your getting less scope with that warranty. Some chunk of the price is for sure, covering those repair costs.
Everyone likes to think that warranty is free, that they're getting something extra.
Click to expand...

Very good point. Definitely worth a thought when comparing two scopes and they have the same features. One has the warranty, one doesn't. You may decide it's a worthy trade off knowing that you are getting a little bit lower quality scope for the warranty. Or you may go the other way and decide you don't want to sacrifice quality.

There are valid cases for both and no one should feel bad for making their decision either way.

This is the sort of discussion I was looking for when starting this thread before the troll attacked!
 
You should read and understand several post above, including mine. Top tier scope manufacturers don’t offer free scopes to idiots who run over them with their truck like you specifically ask about.

Do you understand that companies who offer stupidity insurance do so by cutting corners on quality, and charging the buyers for it up front?

The first thing you know about a company that does that is you are getting substandard quality.

You will never get a good steak dinner if you choose your restaurant by the prize that comes in the happy meal.

What makes you think you are qualified to handle firearms safely if your plan is running over your shit?

Seriously, are you 12 years old or stupid?
 
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rth1800 said:
You should read and understand several post above, including mine. Top tier scope manufacturers don’t offer free scopes to idiots who run over them with their truck like you specifically ask about.
.
.
.
Seriously, are you 12 years old or stupid?
Click to expand...

Again, go read the first post. It's right there at the very tippy top. Dude, seriously how much of your day do you spend on this message board. You reply in like 10 seconds. Geeze. No life eh? Anyway yeah about that I said and I quote:

"If I run the scope over with my truck I know Vortex will replace it."

Do you need me to walk you through that sentence? I simply made a statement that indicates a company will replace something no matter what. Yet you seem to take issue with this. It's like you are anti-Vortex to a fault. Let it go. Not sure how they made you so butt hurt, but if I get you a dollie could you show us where the bad company touched you?

And no, sorry, not 12 not stupid. Yet, to argue with a dullard like you is pretty pointless. I've already wasted enough. So, have fun hiding in your mom's basement trawling snipershide forums because you have no real life I guess. I'll go back to shooting and participating in what the rest of us consider society.

So go ahead and reply in 5 seconds with more of your uneducated dribble. Gonna go find that ignore option here for you.
 
You can ignore me and ignore the truth but that won’t change either me or the truth.

Stupid is fun to watch.
 
To the OP, I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking. There is no denying that Vortex pretty much has the best warranty when it comes to being a dumb ass. Like you said, if you run it over, they will cover it. No questions asked.

All the top reputable scope companies have great warranties. Leupold, US Optics, Athlon, Nightforce, Theta, and so on. Some have lifetime and some have a term. Pretty much they will all take care of you unless you decide to use the scope as a hammer. And truthfully, a company should not have to pay for stupidity. That would be like buying a new car, using it in a demolition derby, and then expecting to get a new car afterwards.

I like to buy scopes that have a lifetime warranty because they are mechanical and will eventually need repaired, all brands. I like to tryout different brands and reticles, so to me transferable warranties are almost a must.

with that being said, I think if you buy a Leupold, USOptics, Nightforce, Schmidt, Athlon, Kahles, Vortex, Theta, and ZCO, I think you would be safe. Just remember like said before, you are paying for that warranty one way or another.
 
Poorboyr said:
To the OP, I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking. There is no denying that Vortex pretty much has the best warranty when it comes to being a dumb ass. Like you said, if you run it over, they will cover it. No questions asked.
Click to expand...

Really just asking for peoples opinions and experiences with warranty and customer service. Some people have the view they'd rather not pay for it in the overhead of the scope, some would. Some are butt hurt to even consider such a question. I just thought it would be a good topic of discussion honestly.

There have been some good and interesting points made throughout this post by almost everyone, well except that one dumbass.
 
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