Rifle Scopes Titanium erector springs -- essential? Ubiquitous?

[dbooksta]

I read that Nightforce uses titanium erector springs because they are practically immune to fatigue. Is this true to any significant extent (esp. vs. whatever other alloys are used)?

Or is it just assumed that all high-end scope manufacturers are using titanium springs, just like they're all argon-purging their one-piece tubes and putting hydrophobic coatings on their lenses?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: Titanium erector springs -- essential? Ubiquitous?

I am not sure whether the titanium is critical or great marketing... a low-stressed spring in an erector, which is, by definition, a favorable environment, will last for decades w. no issues.

Fatigue is virtually nil in any type of quality spring, even when compressed for years. After all, your 100-Year-Old Colt 1911 or revolver still goes Bang... and lots of those 'mere' steel springs live at least somewhat compressed.

I think the major 'difference' is between those scopes that use actual springs (titanium or quality steel) in their erectors vs. silicon bags/buttons or rubber bungs that are supposed to provide return to erectors.

Lots of scopes in the 'good old days' used a silicone-filled bag that would compress and then push the erector back as the knob was backed off. Over time, those bags or rubber discs could get hard or lose their ability to return the erector to zero.

With any scope... exercise those knobs. Don't set and forget. Run tracking drills on occasion and check to make sure the scope returns to zero after running knobs up and down.

If your scope won't track and return to zero... it doesn't matter whether the springs are titanium or made of old paperclips. Trust but verify!

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: Titanium erector springs -- essential? Ubiquitous?

Did the springs fatigue or coil bind?... because in extreme use and running turrets to the stops, springs, no matter what the material, can coil bind and 'lock up.' I've had that happen on a very good scope and IMHO 'material' had nothing to do with it.

That said... is titanium an advantage? In a small way, yes. Titanium will fatigue less. It won't be subject to corrosion in the same way (but in a scope, things better not be rusting!) So it's a small advantage

And one can argue that lots of 'little things' that are well-thought-out and not built to a price make the top end of the scope market what it is. That is true as well. If they put in the best springs, you can be assured they used the best coatings, bought the best gasket material, etc. So thinking of something like spring material as a bellwether for the engineering 'package' is a good thing.

But to the OP's question... and my answer, titanium a small advantage compared to quality steel. And as I said, either one is a major advantage compared to the true 'cheap' options of bags/rubber plugs.

Would I make my purchase decision on titanium springs vs. steel ones. Not in a million years. Doesn't ring my bell. But some folks 'will' make their decision based on titanium springs (or interesting knob shapes or internal levels or the fact that you can park a Jeep on it) and that goes back to my comment about marketing!

A company's ad agency wouldn't have highlighted this feature if they didn't think people would jump on it! It's a differentiator and clearly it's a good one. People are talking about it.

In addition to my USO's, I've shot NF, S&B, Kahles, Zeiss, and loads of other scopes from across the price range. At the highest end of the market, they are all phenomenal pieces of kit, all with small differences and engineering features that differentiate them. I'd own any of the above proudly. And people will argue over those differences ad nauseum. Just look at the "my scope is better" threads that are all over SH.

And, to your point Sharf, about failures. Even the best scope, being a mechanical device, is subject to failure at some point -- I've had that happen too. For everyone who has had a S@B shortdot fail... there will be someone who can say their NF failed, their USO failed, the glass popped out of their Kahles, or their Swarovski exploded in a blinding flash, etc. etc. etc. Mechanical devices fail and they fail faster if used hard. MTBF -- every device has it.

As I said above... look at the whole package... and work/test/evaluate/know your gear. Buy what you like, make sure it works as advertised and enjoy. You can't go wrong with any of the good gear. If you want titanium springs, by all means buy a scope that uses them!

Just my $0.02. Read the fine print. Not sold in stores. As seen on TV. Offer not valid in Guam, etc. etc. etc.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[dbooksta]

Re: Titanium erector springs -- essential? Ubiquitous?

Thanks for the explanations.

And wow ... are there still scopes made with erectors other than metal springs? I've seen springs on even the cheapest NC Star red-dots, so I'd be shocked if anyone is still manufacturing erectors with elastomers! There should be a special hall of shame for those....

 

[wslowik]

Re: Titanium erector springs -- essential? Ubiquitous?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharfshutze</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sirhrmechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not sure whether the titanium is critical or great marketing... a low-stressed spring in an erector, which is, by definition, a favorable environment, will last for decades w. no issues.

Fatigue is virtually nil in any type of quality spring, even when compressed for years. After all, your 100-Year-Old Colt 1911 or revolver still goes Bang... and lots of those 'mere' steel springs live at least somewhat compressed.

I think the major 'difference' is between those scopes that use actual springs (titanium or quality steel) in their erectors vs. silicon bags/buttons or rubber bungs that are supposed to provide return to erectors.

Lots of scopes in the 'good old days' used a silicone-filled bag that would compress and then push the erector back as the knob was backed off. Over time, those bags or rubber discs could get hard or lose their ability to return the erector to zero.

With any scope... exercise those knobs. Don't set and forget. Run tracking drills on occasion and check to make sure the scope returns to zero after running knobs up and down.

If your scope won't track and return to zero... it doesn't matter whether the springs are titanium or made of old paperclips. Trust but verify!

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Sirhr </div></div>

Really? Is that why my S@B shortdot needed its erector springs replaced after extreme use..And a particular wellknown SOF group needed their springs upgraded also after using them on heavy auto weapons. Believe me lesser scopes all fell apart while the Short dots held strong. Theres a reason why Nightforce and Schmidt@Bender uses a more expensive proprietary style and material springs in their scope and why they track so well and handle extreme cold temps and can handle heavy automatic fire..And another pricey well known company scope i wont name tracks like shit. erector wanders during heavy auto fire and constantly needs to be sent back to have the erector springs replaced because the material and design sucks. There is a big difference. </div></div>

I'm confused...are you saying your shortdot needed the springs replaced, or was that sarcastic?

 

[scharfschutze762]

Re: Titanium erector springs -- essential? Ubiquitous?

Nope it was fatigue. And S@B uses leaf type springs similar to nightforce..But agreed the material be it steel or titanium is less important than deisign of the spring..

 

[spr1]

Re: Titanium erector springs -- essential? Ubiquitous?

Titanium has a lower modulus of elasticity than Steel. Combine that with a grade of Titanium that has a high yield strength and what you get is a spring that can work over a large range of travel. And, with a useful amount of force available at the lowest stress position while not being so highly stressed that the highest stress position causes an unacceptably short life from either a stress relaxation standpoint or a fatigue failure (which is less likely than stress relaxation). Why does this matter to us? Because the scopes we tend to use have very large travel distances on the adjustments.

 

[cz777]

Re: Titanium erector springs -- essential? Ubiquitous?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spr1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Titanium has a lower modulus of elasticity than Steel. Combine that with a grade of Titanium that has a high yield strength and what you get is a spring that can work over a large range of travel. And, with a useful amount of force available at the lowest stress position while not being so highly stressed that the highest stress position causes an unacceptably short life from either a stress relaxation standpoint or a fatigue failure (which is less likely than stress relaxation). Why does this matter to us? Because the scopes we tend to use have very large travel distances on the adjustments. </div></div>if i am not mistaken Titanium will work hardens -brittle in the works ....