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To X-mas tree or not X-mas tree

davigf01

PRS Student as of 12/2020
Supporter
Minuteman
Dec 12, 2020
40
4
65
Cincinnati area near West Chester
Researching scopes, reticles.
Wondering what the majority of competition shooters use with regard to Christmas tree reticles.
Seems to me the strategy is

1) dial your elevation, hold over wind.
2) adjust on second shot. How useful is the x-mas reticle in competition?
Is this the strategy, or am I missing something?
Is this one of those hot button topics, where there is a wide variety of opinion, or is it a no brainer, yes most good competitive shooters follow this practice kind of answer?
Thanks in advance!
George D.
 
Others have loads more experience but here’s what I learned.

I really liked my H59 when I first got it but in my only competition I dialed all my elevation so the Christmas tree wasn’t used. However, I could have saved a few seconds if I’d held the second elevation in multi distance stages.

The compromise would be a cleaner tree than my H59. There are trees that don’t begin until 2 or 3 mils below the horizontal line.
 
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You likely won’t use the tree on the second shot to measure unless you’re *way* off. Most misses will be inside of 1 Mil be it vertical or horizontally and won’t require a tree to measure.

Tree is useful for:

People who prefer to hold (this is a small minority)

Forced holdover stages

When you don’t have time to dial

(And then there’s the military use and such which is completely different topic.)


To give you an idea, I probably use tree less than 10 times a year. For me, it’s just a utility.
 
what distances are you talking about, and optical centre vs deviation from optical centre, also worth it to consider

wind deviaion at 1K yds is ± 1.0mil per ~5mph wind, so 15mph@1kyds you are ±3mils, still relatively close to optical centre
whereas holding elevation at 1k eg rage of 8-10mils (whatever) and in any event is ~3x further away from centre

Point being, it takes better glass to be happy doing "real work" with your optic off the centre,
notwithstanding whatever else the pro/con of xmas tree is
 
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what distances are you talking about, and optical centre vs deviation from optical centre, als to consider

wind deviaion at 1K yds is ± 1.0mil per ~5mph wind, so 15mph@1kyds you are ±3mils, still relatively close to optical centre
whereas holding elevation at 1k eg rage of 8-10mils (whatever) and in any event is ~3x further away from centre

Point being, it takes better glass to be happy doing "real work" with your optic off the centre,
notwithstanding whatever else the pro/con of xmas tree is
Typical competition distances. I am just starting out, trying to make the best decisions in gear. Guessing 400 to 1000 yds?
 
Typical competition distances. I am just starting out, trying to make the best decisions in gear. Guessing 400 to 1000 yds?
Might ask your local club if they have a loaner rifle setup you can try. Likely whatever it has on it will work well for their matches and can guide you to whatever will work for you.
 
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Xmas is far faster than dialing turrets. Once you lay behind the scope the distraction goes away and its easy to concentrate on the proper dot
 
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it is nice to be able to hit several targets at various distances without having to take time to dial.
whether or not this is useful to you is your call.
 
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the most common drawback is that many find the tree reticle "cluttered" or "obstructive".
i think after some time, like anything else, your brain learns to put it in the background until you are using it.
at first your brain may tend to focus on the tree, and it is a distraction, but not for long.
of course, i can't speak for all brains.
 
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the most common drawback is that many find the tree reticle "cluttered" or "obstructive".
i think after some time, like anything else, your brain learns to put it in the background until you are using it.
at first your brain may tend to focus on the tree, and it is a distraction, but not for long.
of course, i can't speak for all brains.
Yeah, I could see that. The clutter is the key. If it seems like a.problem, no go. Of not, then why not!
 
I am not well informed on podcast technology. Can that be accessed from Sniper's Hide?
One of the sources is a website you can listen to it on or download it:

 
One of the sources is a website you can listen to it on or download it:

Outstanding! Thank you so much!
 
Yeah, I could see that. The clutter is the key. If it seems like a.problem, no go. Of not, then why not!
yeah at first, it was distracting because i couldn't help looking at it. it didn't take very long for it to "take a backseat" but again i don't know if everyone has the same experience, or even uses one long enough to find out. Unfortunately you can't try out scopes like golf clubs.

in any case, you can still hold for distance with basic mil dot reticle, so if you don't need a "do everything" type of reticle for ranging, calling corrections, holding for movers...or you don't expect you'll be holding for a lot of wind most of the time, you might prefer a simpler reticle.
 
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I like a fairly simple tree.
Here is my hold at yards 530 with a good wind for my 260.
33E37331-21BB-4D4D-9810-86A5E3C85BBE.jpeg
 
here is a view of the newish PR2 tree reticle from leupold. only 3 days old so maybe not a lot of views.

 
I had to double check my AMG just now to make sure if there was anything above or below the horizontal bar. That's how much I use the tree features.

ETA: Ahh yes, just how I remembered it..
ret_rzr-amg_6-24x50_ebr-7b_mrad_web_subten.jpg
 
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Nightforce with Horus Tremor3 , the Christmas Tree has red and green lights on it when illuminated.
 
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If I didn't shoot matches I would not have a tree reticle. I rarely use the tree. I can dial 10 or 11 different elevations in a 90 second stage no problem...as long as it is one position.

The problem comes when you shoot 2 or 3 targets at different distances and you shoot every target from each of 4 or 5 positions before moving. In those types of stages I usually dial the close target and hold the others.

There are also those stages where the COF forces you to hold. Those stages were fine without a tree back when they used to make the targets 2 moa++(minute of man). Now I see a lot of targets on those stages that are 1.5 - 2 moa. I hit a lot more using a tree than without once targets get that small.
 
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If I didn't shoot matches I would not have a tree reticle. I rarely use the tree. I can dial 10 or 11 different elevations in a 90 second stage no problem...as long as it is one position.

The problem comes when you shoot 2 or 3 targets at different distances and you shoot every target from each of 4 or 5 positions before moving. In those types of stages I usually dial the close target and hold the others.

There are also those stages where the COF forces you to hold. Those stages were fine without a tree back when they used to make the targets 2 moa++(minute of man). Now I see a lot of targets on those stages that are 1.5 - 2 moa. I hit a lot more using a tree than without once targets get that small.

You’d easily be one of the fastest I’ve ever seen.

There’s only been one person to clean the reverse frustration ladder at RO in a match. 8 targets in 1 min prone and they are all pretty easy to find. And you don’t have to dial.
 
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If I didn't shoot matches I would not have a tree reticle. I rarely use the tree. I can dial 10 or 11 different elevations in a 90 second stage no problem...as long as it is one position.

The problem comes when you shoot 2 or 3 targets at different distances and you shoot every target from each of 4 or 5 positions before moving. In those types of stages I usually dial the close target and hold the others.

There are also those stages where the COF forces you to hold. Those stages were fine without a tree back when they used to make the targets 2 moa++(minute of man). Now I see a lot of targets on those stages that are 1.5 - 2 moa. I hit a lot more using a tree than without once targets get that small.
If you get a change take a video next time out running through that many

always looking for tricks to speed me up.

Thanks
 
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You’d easily be one of the fastest I’ve ever seen.

There’s only been one person to clean the reverse frustration ladder at RO in a match. 8 targets in 1 min prone and they are all pretty easy to find. And you don’t have to dial.
I dial very quickly. I pretty much flick the turret and it lands on the number. I don't always clean the stage every time. I only shot 2 stages that required close to that much dialing last season, that I remember. Both were 10 shot stages and 90 seconds. I had time to spare on both. Both were prone from one position. One was 400, 600, 400, 700, 400, 800, 400, 900, 400, 1000. I got a 9 on that one. I missed the 900 yard target. The other was from 300 to 700 in 100 yard increments one shot each and then start over at 300 and do it again. Before that stage people were asking me how I was going to shoot, and no one thought I could dial without timing out. No one else in my squad dialed. Everyone held. I shot last and I dialed and finished with 12 or 13 seconds left. I did clean that one.

The Rifles Only stage is equivalent to 12 shots in 90 seconds with a target transition on every shot. I would definitely have to rush the last shot on that, I am certain. Also, it would depend on if you start prone or build the prone position on the clock. If I start prone ( no movement) I would probably have to rush the last shot. If I had to build a prone position on the clock it would be a lot more rushed. I could probably break 7 good shots though and MAYBE the eighth at time. I would likely have to rush shot 8. Also, 1 min for 8 is less time/shots to make up for taking a little extra time on the first shot to hone in on a wind call than 90 sec. for 12.

If the COF requires multiple positions there is no way I could dial that much and make the time. Whenever there is movement involved, even a little, with that many target transitions, I have to hold over or I will time out. I do not shoot nearly as well with hold overs especially if the targets are not generous. Also, we would need to compare target sizes for the above stages as well. The precision level of sight picture required for a 2 moa targe vs a 1 moa target is drastically different. Also, the stigma of that stage with only one person ever cleaning it during a match would mind fuck me. I would likely have a stupid fundamental issue that would cause a miss. If it was just a fast stage in some bumfuk local match the mental part would be much different. The other part of that stage is the name. I am not familiar with that stage as I have not shot at rifles only ( I hope to soon) but the stages where I have been successful have pretty easy to memorize target sequences. It sounds like the target sequence that Jacob came up with might not be as easy and would require some extra thinking or notes. Either/both of those would eat time.

I guess what I am saying is that the reverse frustration ladder at rifles only would seem to be more difficult in several subtle ways than the stages I have had success on with a lot of dialing. I will say that it seems hard, but not impossible to clean. It sounds like a good stage to practice for a few sessions to improve speed. I would bet if the stage is in match after match there, eventually people will become accustomed to it and clean it more regularly.
 
I dial very quickly. I pretty much flick the turret and it lands on the number. I don't always clean the stage every time. I only shot 2 stages that required close to that much dialing last season, that I remember. Both were 10 shot stages and 90 seconds. I had time to spare on both. Both were prone from one position. One was 400, 600, 400, 700, 400, 800, 400, 900, 400, 1000. I got a 9 on that one. I missed the 900 yard target. The other was from 300 to 700 in 100 yard increments one shot each and then start over at 300 and do it again. Before that stage people were asking me how I was going to shoot, and no one thought I could dial without timing out. No one else in my squad dialed. Everyone held. I shot last and I dialed and finished with 12 or 13 seconds left. I did clean that one.

The Rifles Only stage is equivalent to 12 shots in 90 seconds with a target transition on every shot. I would definitely have to rush the last shot on that, I am certain. Also, it would depend on if you start prone or build the prone position on the clock. If I start prone ( no movement) I would probably have to rush the last shot. If I had to build a prone position on the clock it would be a lot more rushed. I could probably break 7 good shots though and MAYBE the eighth at time. I would likely have to rush shot 8. Also, 1 min for 8 is less time/shots to make up for taking a little extra time on the first shot to hone in on a wind call than 90 sec. for 12.

If the COF requires multiple positions there is no way I could dial that much and make the time. Whenever there is movement involved, even a little, with that many target transitions, I have to hold over or I will time out. I do not shoot nearly as well with hold overs especially if the targets are not generous. Also, we would need to compare target sizes for the above stages as well. The precision level of sight picture required for a 2 moa targe vs a 1 moa target is drastically different. Also, the stigma of that stage with only one person ever cleaning it during a match would mind fuck me. I would likely have a stupid fundamental issue that would cause a miss. If it was just a fast stage in some bumfuk local match the mental part would be much different. The other part of that stage is the name. I am not familiar with that stage as I have not shot at rifles only ( I hope to soon) but the stages where I have been successful have pretty easy to memorize target sequences. It sounds like the target sequence that Jacob came up with might not be as easy and would require some extra thinking or notes. Either/both of those would eat time.

I guess what I am saying is that the reverse frustration ladder at rifles only would seem to be more difficult in several subtle ways than the stages I have had success on with a lot of dialing. I will say that it seems hard, but not impossible to clean. It sounds like a good stage to practice for a few sessions to improve speed. I would bet if the stage is in match after match there, eventually people will become accustomed to it and clean it more regularly.

Two stages with one not clean is definitely not enough to say you do it regularly.

Also, having a stage in match after match defeats the purpose of practical shooting. Which is why the PRS barricade became less of a test of skill and just a choreographed place holder.
 
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I find Christmas tree reticles to be a great way to ruin a nice piece of glass. They belong on cheap scopes in my opinion.

I'm an old school shooter and I place an emphasis on reading mirage and seeing the bullet in the air, and Christmas tree reticles simply get in the way of that.

These days, lots of guys just pull data off the kestrel and shoot the numbers. If that is how you shoot, you honestly don't need a good scope anyway but likely prefer a heavy Christmas tree.

There are a few Christmas tree reticles out there that are sparse enough not to interfere, but they are unfortunately never on the scopes I'm serious about for other reasons.
 
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this kind of shooting (21 gun salute) is where it comes in handy, but again a mildot reticle could work as well in many cases.

 
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Shooting that fast, he can't be holding for much wind and that's nothing that cant be done with an MOAR reticle.
 
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I love them. I use the Vortex EBR-7B, in Mils. I used MOA all my life (a long time) and switched over to Mils about 12 years ago and I will never look back. Mils is base ten ( .1 mil - so it's really easy. Same number to remember with 3 different decimals points (.36,3.6 36). Don't even need those if you start thinking in angles instead of inches.

The "tree" reticles are a godsend. I use mine for a lot of different things, wind, etc. Besides wind they shine when zeroing the rifle or adjusting misses from "splashes" at long range. Zeroing is especially easy. Shoot 3 rounds, center on the three holes, measure from POA and click the turret. One time deal.

Then there's the missed shot "splashes". It makes those pretty easy if they are within the field of view. If the splash is not in the FOV then you can dial down the magnification a bit and send another one. This if you use a scope with front focal plane - an even greater necessity because the measurements on the reticle never change, the tree just gets smaller. Here's the reticle at full magnification:

Vortex 5-25 Strike Eagle Reticle Subtensions.jpg


JAS-SH
 
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I have h59. But I like the trend toward cleaning up the first couple mils below the cross hairs like the PR2 has
 
Wonder which way the TS went?

I recommend really trying both as either can be effective, which is outright better is subjective and what type of shooting you plan to do is a factor of course.

Personally I am stuck with the Christmas tree reticle, have used the mil-xt, ebr, pr2, various hours and tremor 2/3. I think because I shot a lot of field matches and gas gun matches I have been gone with more data for rapid holdovers. For instance I shot the competition dynamics Burris sniper team match this year. I was the secondary so I went first with a 223 gas gun and unlimited ammo for my targets. For speed I mostly held but did dial for the smallest targets. With the tremor I could hold and even give my partner the wind based on my wind dot I held.

I would say for a field match it’s nice to have the quick option to range and immediately hold. If you’re running a weapon mounted range finder dialing data throws off the zero with the LRF if you dial from target to target.

Other rapid shooting with unknown distances also benefits from the tree reticle.

If your application is pure PRS, you won’t end up using the tree very often so a duplex style reticle could be more beneficial to spot splash and trace. The PR2 and others (ZCO Impact 2/3) kind of split that difference. There’s some data but not maybe overly polluted like a Horus style reticle.
 
I do find the Tubbs reticle interesting because it makes an effort to compensate for the the effects of both spin drift and aerodynamic jump.

The downside is that it doesn't play well with AB data.


reticle-500x500.jpg
 
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I love them. I use the Vortex EBR-7B, in Mils. I used MOA all my life (a long time) and switched over to Mils about 12 years ago and I will never look back. Mils is base ten ( .1 mil - so it's really easy. Same number to remember with 3 different decimals points (.36,3.6 36). Don't even need those if you start thinking in angles instead of inches.

The "tree" reticles are a godsend. I use mine for a lot of different things, wind, etc. Besides wind they shine when zeroing the rifle or adjusting misses from "splashes" at long range. Zeroing is especially easy. Shoot 3 rounds, center on the three holes, measure from POA and click the turret. One time deal.

Then there's the missed shot "splashes". It makes those pretty easy if they are within the field of view. If the splash is not in the FOV then you can dial down the magnification a bit and send another one. This if you use a scope with front focal plane - an even greater necessity because the measurements on the reticle never change, the tree just gets smaller. Here's the reticle at full magnification:

View attachment 7751699

JAS-SH
I’m using the similar EBR-7C and a XLR-2 on two rifles respectively, one of which is a hunting rifle.

I was reluctantly dragged into the xmas tree reticle because the scopes I chose only had that option. I do seem to be getting used to the clutter and I am hoping over time I will find the utility. I do think mils helps a great deal in this respect.
 
f you’re running a weapon mounted range finder dialing data throws off the zero with the LRF if you dial from target to target.
I'm not at all sure I understand this....how can dialing up....LRF or not...impact your zero stop?

Or have I badly misunderstood.
 
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I'm not at all sure I understand this....how can dialing up....LRF or not...impact your zero stop?

Or have I badly misunderstood.
Ha yeah that’s not at all what I was trying to say. I’ll try again if you dial your dope then you lose your zero with a weapon mounted LRF, until you dial your dope back to zero. So if you’re ranging then dialing data you have to return to zero to range a different target. Hopefully that makes a little more sense.
 
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Ha yeah that’s not at all what I was trying to say. I’ll try again if you dial your dope then you lose your zero with a weapon mounted LRF, until you dial your dope back to zero. So if you’re ranging then dialing data you have to return to zero to range a different target. Hopefully that makes a little more sense.
Thanks. Yeah, I def didn’t understand. :ROFLMAO:
 
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Tree/grid reticles win for me. Adjusting for misses (either holding or dialling) is so much quicker and easier when you can spot and compensate your POI somewhere in the grid reference area, rather than trying to follow up a split second splash somewhere off in fucking empty space with accurate shot placement. Also, spotting for other shooters a tree comes in very handy, for the same reason as mentioned above.
 
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