To Zero Stop or Not

[DLis0311]

Advice question for Tactical rifle application , LEO Snipers. To use the Zero Stop or not, thoughts?

Guys came back from FBI course saying they were told to never use a zero stop. Others trained elsewhere with SOF guys and PRS background guys have been told to use them.

Thanks

 

[Rob01]

What downside is there to using one? Using a 100 yard zero you are dialing up from there so no reason not to use a zero stop. Most come with about a half mil below or are adjustable also so it’s not a dead stop at zero.

 

[Ronin22]

Fucking up a bread sandwich here. Zero stops always.

 

[simonp]

What was the reason the folks coming back from the FBI course were told to never use it? Just curious..........

I am not seeing a downside to using a zero stop

 

[308pirate]

Advice question for Tactical rifle application , LEO Snipers. To use the Zero Stop or not, thoughts?

Guys came back from FBI course saying they were told to never use a zero stop. Others trained elsewhere with SOF guys and PRS background guys have been told to use them.

Thanks

I never listen to anyone who won't or can't tell me the why behind what they preach.

Did you ask why?

 

[Maurygold]

can't imagine one good argument for that. can think of plenty why you want to know when your rifle is zeroed.

 

[carbonbased]

Just guessing here…if we assume FBI/SWAT guys rarely shoot past 100yds in engagements, and they zero their rifles at 100yds…AND…they…dial? With their SFP scope? (harder to hold under)

Then if they set a zero stop at their 100yd zero and need to shoot at closer ranges at things the size of an eyeball, they wouldn’t be able to dial down?

Don’t tase me bros; I’m full of assumptions and just spitballing to figure this out.

Pretty sure I’m an idiot.

 

[Rob01]

Just guessing here…if we assume FBI/SWAT guys rarely shoot past 100yds in engagements, and they zero their rifles at 100yds…AND…they…dial? With their SFP scope? (harder to hold under)

Then if they set a zero stop at their 100yd zero and need to shoot at closer ranges at things the size of an eyeball, they wouldn’t be able to dial down?

Don’t tase me bros; I’m full of assumptions and just spitballing to figure this out.

Pretty sure I’m an idiot.

You dial up at closer targets too.

 

[carbonbased]

You dial up at closer targets too.

See? I forgot that. Idiot status confirmed.

Mine, that is.

 

[parshal]

Just set it to "stop" a mil below zero. Then you could dial down even though I don't understand when that would be necessary. Maybe all scopes won't let you set the stop below zero?

 

[CK1.0]

I’ve been to LEO firearms training classes where the instructors didn’t know how to hold their guns correctly.

LEO training and tactics is usually about a decade behind what you’ll find at any decent PRS or 3-gun match.

I used to have a SORT commander who wore a G26 in a shitty/stupid Blackhawk Sherpa holster on a chest rig and who was at least 100lbs overweight and probably couldn’t do a single push-up…

 

[chevy_man]

If you listen to the FBI on precision shooting, you're dumb.

Their best guys get hits in spite of their training, not because of it.

 

[58blackflag]

I usually set my zero stop about 0.5 mils under 0. I have my gun zero’d with a suppressor, so if I take it off, I usually need a bit of room to come down to zero with the can off. On my NF it’s way easier to leave a little room under 0 just in case rather than have to remove the turret and adjust the zero stop to dial a couple of tenths. The zero stop still serves its purpose of making sure I know what turn I’m on even it it goes a little past 0.

 

[CK1.0]

I'd imagine the FBI might be against the use of most zero stops due to the likelihood of having to engage inside 100 yards...

That said, depending on the glass, not all zero stops are actually a hard stop at "0", many will dial .5-1 mil below "0" out of the box, or in other cases seasoned guys will set it up like @58blackflag mentioned above.

 

[Rob01]

Inside 100 yards will be up elevation anyways.

 

[CK1.0]

Inside 100 yards will be up elevation anyways.

Strange but true, never really thought about shooting my bolt-gun at 25 yards, but now I know lol.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

In 2023 you'd have to go out of your way to find a quality optic without a zero stop. Or you'd have to request it in the order......which I'm very confident is rare.

This is likely a simple misunderstanding in training, or some out of date info. I've never heard this in any training I have attended or been part of cadre for. Though I'm admittedly past my active years, so you never know.

@Terry Cross may have some insight as to why any LEO would be apprehensive about a zero stop. I can't think of any reasons off the top of my head.

 

[GIXXER2000]

I set my zero stop .5 mil below zero. That way I can go low if needed

 

[Rob01]

Strange but true, never really thought about shooting my bolt-gun at 25 yards, but now I know lol.

View attachment 8238345

Yup. It’s why I have always said if you zero at 100 you will be dialing up whether it be 10 yards or 1000. In matches now there is usually nothing closer than 200 yards but we used to shoot in close just to imbed this in shooters. We shot at 14 feet before. If I remember it was about 13 mils up. Lol

 

[stanley_white]

The only thing I can think of is liability.

I can imagine following a shooting a sniper being questioned in court:

“Tell me again Officer how you took the shot without having your rifle scope dialed appropriately.”

“Well counselor, we cannot dial our scopes to engage targets under X conditions due to a design limitation.”

“So your entire department willfully purchased rifle scopes that cannot be adjusted to hit targets accurately and thus you endanger the lives of the citizens you are sworn to protect?”

All of the above is pontification based on zero actual experience. I would assume I am full of shit.

-Stan

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

This is one of the things we have lost with most rifle competitions not being based on well rounded real life scenarios.

Most matches used to incorporate some sort of modified shooting.....being it odd positions or close distances. You had to know how to use your rifle in a myriad of situations. Now that's the very minority of matches and everything is off stable props and at distance.

Which is perfectly fine. You just don't learn how to shoot your rifle off something unstable and/or 25yds or 8yds.....

 

[fdkay]

I always use my zero stop.
When you get to your FP, you should be double be double checking your turrets.
Easy to do when you have a zero stop and gives you confidence that your turret is set where it is supposed to be.
Windage should either be capped or locking.
I attended an FBI instructed class before zero stops were a thing, so it wasn't addressed. It was a good class, but I didn't agree with everything.

 

[CS95]

The only thing I can think of is liability.

I can imagine following a shooting a sniper being questioned in court:

“Tell me again Officer how you took the shot without having your rifle scope dialed appropriately.”

“Well counselor, we cannot dial our scopes to engage targets under X conditions due to a design limitation.”

“So your entire department willfully purchased rifle scopes that cannot be adjusted to hit targets accurately and thus you endanger the lives of the citizens you are sworn to protect?”

All of the above is pontification based on zero actual experience. I would assume I am full of shit.

-Stan

I'm not sure what you are saying here. What do you mean "connot be adjusted to hit targets"? As long as you are zeroed at 100 a zero stop does not limit dialing for any yardage.

 

[chevy_man]

The only thing I can think of is liability.

I can imagine following a shooting a sniper being questioned in court:

“Tell me again Officer how you took the shot without having your rifle scope dialed appropriately.”

“Well counselor, we cannot dial our scopes to engage targets under X conditions due to a design limitation.”

“So your entire department willfully purchased rifle scopes that cannot be adjusted to hit targets accurately and thus you endanger the lives of the citizens you are sworn to protect?”

All of the above is pontification based on zero actual experience. I would assume I am full of shit.

-Stan

You're assuming anyone in the court room will know anything. That's a bold assumption.

 

[stanley_white]

Read the last line of my post.

-Stan

 

[Secant]

No surprise. FBI likes to go down as much as possible.

 

[WB300]

Were they also told to only use 100% factory stock rifles from Remington too.... for liability purposes???

If so, then their comment makes sense since the Leupold Mk4 didn't have zero stop in 1990.

Sorry... couldn't help myself.

 

[Longshot231]

"Anyone who uses a zero-stop on a rifle scope isn't a real sniper."
- Lon Horiuchi

 

[Ronin22]

"Anyone who uses a zero-stop on a rifle scope isn't a real sniper."
- Lon Horiuchi

Well, that brings perspective on the topic!

 

[Longshot231]

Well, that brings perspective on the topic!

I should have attached a sarcasm alert to that post. Nevertheless, it's probably something that someone like him would say.

 

[Slides]

Only thing I can think of is being concerned about a stop right on zero and not being able to hold under accurately for a very steep shot from an elevated position like hi-rise roof top to shop front/footpath type stuff. If you have enough cant in the mount they aren't really required anyway as you won't be far off adjustment limit but set a couple of milliradians low it shouldn't bother anyone unless you are literally shooting the rifle on its side for some reason.

 

[reelserious]

Would like to see a few of those retards shoot a PRS match with no zero stop

 

[fdkay]

Would like to see a few of those retards shoot a PRS match with no zero stop

A PRS match has absolutely ZERO commonality with law enforcement precision rifle operations

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Would like to see a few of those retards shoot a PRS match with no zero stop

And I'm sure plenty LE shooters would love to see you do what they do.

Apples to oranges.


Also......it would be extremely easy to shoot a PRS match without a zero stop. Especially with the most common cartridges that almost never use double digit dope.

 

[Terry Cross]

Advice question for Tactical rifle application , LEO Snipers. To use the Zero Stop or not, thoughts?

Guys came back from FBI course saying they were told to never use a zero stop. Others trained elsewhere with SOF guys and PRS background guys have been told to use them.

Thanks

Cant fathom why any LE Instructor would recommend against Zero Stops.

Interesting that your crew couldn't explain the "why".

We believe there is a critical difference between an instructor and a teacher.

If the cadre of the FBI course your guys attended were Teachers instead of instructors, your guys would have been able to explain the supposed reasons and you wouldn't be posing this question.

Instructors will regurgitate methods and rules but don't or can't relay the reasons and the why. Like a game of Telephone, much can be lost and taken completely out of context after being recycled from instructor to instructor.

A teacher will explain the the goal and one or more ways to achieve it.
They will explain the methods to avoid and why.
They should be able to demonstrate everything on demand to the class if necessary.

Most of us would vote for a zero stop and locked or capped wind almost 100% of the time. Best way to insure no dope gets put on the gun until you make a specific manipulation. Good way to keep Murphy from f#ck!ng you over.

Every course we have attended or taught results in the hosting cadre giving all the "students" their POC info so they can remain a resource to tap for continuing education and professional development. Surely your guys have their POC. Please have one of them reach out and specifically ask for details, then share their logic either here or on closed channel.

Would love to know what's up.

SOF and PRS have minimal relevance to you type deployments.
We think PRS is single handedly responsible for more equipment procurement train wrecks within LE agencies than all other shooting disciplines combined.
.

 

[Tictacticaltimmy]

Not relevant for the distances shot in LE, but one reason not to use a zero stop would be to switch to Speed Drop Factor 0.

For example, with a 5.56 shooting 77gr BTHP at my elevation, I need to dial down 1.5M to use Speed Drop Factor. The scopes I have do not allow dialing down that far if the zero stop is set.

 

[96C]

None of my optics zero stops are set at 0.0
Generally have optics lock up 3ish mils under zero depending on what the Speed Drop number is, where you'll have to dial under to make things work.
Zero stop should be used to avoid being a whole turn out, not to get in the way.

 

[Terry Cross]

Dont think any LE are going to be using Speed Drop.
Speed Drop is a GREAT tool but not for everything.

 

[Tictacticaltimmy]

None of my optics zero stops are set at 0.0
Generally have optics lock up 3ish mils under zero depending on what the Speed Drop number is, where you'll have to dial under to make things work.
Zero stop should be used to avoid being a whole turn out, not to get in the way.

With Primary Arms optics they can only be set to allow .3mil under 0. Good to know that is not the norm, as it is one of my biggest complaints with them!

 

[epeet]

Considering every FBI Sniper rifle has a scope with a Zero Stop on it, this sounds like a bunch of BS from the OP.

What course? Who were the instructors? And clearly that advice, if it was actually given, is so ridiculous it doesn't even merit a post here.

 

[DLis0311]

Cant fathom why any LE Instructor would recommend against Zero Stops.

Interesting that your crew couldn't explain the "why".

We believe there is a critical difference between an instructor and a teacher.

If the cadre of the FBI course your guys attended were Teachers instead of instructors, your guys would have been able to explain the supposed reasons and you wouldn't be posing this question.

Instructors will regurgitate methods and rules but don't or can't relay the reasons and the why. Like a game of Telephone, much can be lost and taken completely out of context after being recycled from instructor to instructor.

A teacher will explain the the goal and one or more ways to achieve it.
They will explain the methods to avoid and why.
They should be able to demonstrate everything on demand to the class if necessary.

Most of us would vote for a zero stop and locked or capped wind almost 100% of the time. Best way to insure no dope gets put on the gun until you make a specific manipulation. Good way to keep Murphy from f#ck!ng you over.

Every course we have attended or taught results in the hosting cadre giving all the "students" their POC info so they can remain a resource to tap for continuing education and professional development. Surely your guys have their POC. Please have one of them reach out and specifically ask for details, then share their logic either here or on closed channel.

Would love to know what's up.

SOF and PRS have minimal relevance to you type deployments.
We think PRS is single handedly responsible for more equipment procurement train wrecks within LE agencies than all other shooting disciplines combined.
.

Thanks Terry, I’m still waiting for the explanation my guy says is coming.

 

[iceng]

I was previously employed at a company who made scopes (NF), who have MIL/LE contracts. I worked there as a gunsmith.

I asked about this a few years ago. This was the answer i got:

"Military were concerned about return to zero when dialled. If the turret was hard locked on zero, the internal mech would be under 'not normal' compression compared to 1 click or 10 clicks." It would be marginally jammed and torqued.

This was proven to not be an issue. HOWEVER, other scope companies who were trying to get or renew MIL/LE contracts adjusted their internal mechanisms to zero stop BELOW zero by a few clicks, then having to dial forward to zero'd position. That would mean the internal mechanism is under 'normal' spring tension. Vortex as an example.

Another company made the zerostop work exclusively on the turret, NOT internal mechanism, so tension would not be passed on. Current Leupold mk5hd turrets.

This was how it was explained to me, and im sure there chinese whispers in there, but the scope techs / engineers are the people in the know, and have no reason to doubt it.

 

[Skunk]

I’ve slept with thousands of women, taught hundreds of snipers (FBI and state/local), fired dozens of boolits, and even used a zero stop!

With that kind of resume, I can’t think of why anyone would make a blanket statement denouncing the use of zero stops. As pointed out above, our optics have them (Leupold Mk6 3-18).

Now, if a student was having trouble finding/maintaining a zero, setting the zero stop, having gun/optic issues, I can understand that student being advised to not use the stop “for today” or until a break in class when things can be looked at closer. I can’t think of a reason any blanket statement against the use of a zero stop would be given to a whole class, especially as a matter of SOP.

Alright, I’m going back to perpetrating awesomeness. Later.

 

[Terry Cross]

Alright, I’m going back to perpetrating awesomeness. Later.

Best comment ever.

 

[pmclaine]

If your built in dial under is insufficient your zero is wrong.

I want to bring a M70 with a Unertl Target scope to a class. My fear is losing zero and ruining a day of shooting.

….and that’s in a no pressure class.

Zero stop always.

 

[Terry Cross]

Another valuable benefit that can be critical.

A Zero Stop tells you where "home" is without having to see it.
In situations of degraded light conditions and /or when he cannot afford to take his eyes out of the scope, the rifle driver can exactly confirm zero.

I will threaten people in a class if they get caught talking in "clicks" especially to or from a spotter. Valid reason to get pissey if caught twice.

Then later on one exercise while blocking their view, I will put random dope on their elevation and cover the turret markings.
Stand everybody behind their grounded rifles, give them range to target then give them X seconds to go to ground, I'D the target, put their dope on in "clicks" and successfully engage.

Now those shooters can reliably check zero or add dope when using clip-on NV or in the dark without illuminating their position. Ditto if their turrets are muddy, iced or pouring rain.

Still gonna dish out shit if caught talking "clicks". Do that shit in your head but only as a last resort.

This is valuable in producing well rounded rifle drivers that understand how their equipment works and how to use a feature to their benefit under stress.

 

[FredHammer]

How in the flying fuck did people manage to fuck up shooting within 100yds? Level ground a 168-175gr 308 POI 1" low with 100yd zero. Closer than that, its optical offset low. Aim hairline to drill the nose. Similar pattern with about every single cartridge. 300WM? .7 low at 50 with 100yd zero...LAWRT!

 

[FredHammer]

Another valuable benefit that can be critical.

A Zero Stop tells you where "home" is without having to see it.
In situations of degraded light conditions and /or when he cannot afford to take his eyes out of the scope, the rifle driver can exactly confirm zero.

I will threaten people in a class if they get caught talking in "clicks" especially to or from a spotter. Valid reason to get pissey if caught twice.

Then later on one exercise while blocking their view, I will put random dope on their elevation and cover the turret markings.
Stand everybody behind their grounded rifles, give them range to target then give them X seconds to go to ground, I'D the target, put their dope on in "clicks" and successfully engage.

Now those shooters can reliably check zero or add dope when using clip-on NV or in the dark without illuminating their position. Ditto if their turrets are muddy, iced or pouring rain.

Still gonna dish out shit if caught talking "clicks". Do that shit in your head but only as a last resort.

This is valuable in producing well rounded rifle drivers that understand how their equipment works and how to use a feature to their benefit under stress.

Damn tuff love still alive!

 

[reelserious]

A PRS match has absolutely ZERO commonality with law enforcement precision rifle operations

Yes I know I think the average precision law enforcement shot is what 75 yards

 

[fdkay]

Yes I know I think the average precision law enforcement shot is what 75 yards

No. Closer